Official Samsung UBD-K8500 4K HDR Ultra HD Blu-Ray Player Owner's Thread - Page 444 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13291 of 14336 Old 10-25-2017, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Wes Leavell View Post
Tried a hard reset, but everything was plugged in / on. Will try what you suggested, however routing through the AVR is not possible as the AVR output to TV is only HDMI 2.0 and not 2.0a so I lose HDR.... (would prefer to route everything through AVR, but... early adopter issues, routing back through ARC works, get atmos, but out of sync to the point that no sync correction setting on any involved device will compensate)
If this is an ARC issue, ARC is extremely flakey. Take the HDMI arc out of the equation and use optical cable. You get the EXACT same audio using optical as you do with HDMI and a lot less headache.

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post #13292 of 14336 Old 10-25-2017, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Wes Leavell View Post
Tried a hard reset, but everything was plugged in / on. Will try what you suggested, however routing through the AVR is not possible as the AVR output to TV is only HDMI 2.0 and not 2.0a so I lose HDR.... (would prefer to route everything through AVR, but... early adopter issues, routing back through ARC works, get atmos, but out of sync to the point that no sync correction setting on any involved device will compensate)
The routine I suggested is designed to force the BDP to "forget" the pre-firmware update state of the TV, and give the HDMI 2 output sole responsibility for audio. You may want to try setting the audio output on the BDP to "AUTO" to see if that enables ATMOS to both sources, but the HDMI handshake may still screw things up.

Some AVR brands/models seem more susceptible to issues with audio sync over ARC connections; you may find that getting things working perfectly for disc playback does not translate into error-free playback with apps. I would think any AVR capable of processing ATMOS would also be able to "fake" ATMOS from any 7.1 signal?

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post #13293 of 14336 Old 10-25-2017, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Quicksilv3r View Post
If this is an ARC issue, ARC is extremely flakey. Take the HDMI arc out of the equation and use optical cable. You get the EXACT same audio using optical as you do with HDMI and a lot less headache.

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It was my understanding that optical will not work for DD True-HD, which is the carrier for Atmos signals, I have an optical cable lying around, once I let my BD player sleep for a while and hard reset like suggested I will try optical as well.
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post #13294 of 14336 Old 10-25-2017, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Wes Leavell View Post
It was my understanding that optical will not work for DD True-HD, which is the carrier for Atmos signals, I have an optical cable lying around, once I let my BD player sleep for a while and hard reset like suggested I will try optical as well.
Haha ARC audio from your TV to your receiver will not do Lossless TrueHD Atmos. It will be lossy audio. You need to connect your K8500 to your TV from HDMI 1 to 1 input on your TV. The second HDMI should be connected to your receiver for audio.

Optical and HDMI audio from your TV to their TV speakers OR receiver will give you poor audio unless that is all you have.

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post #13295 of 14336 Old 10-25-2017, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Quicksilv3r View Post
Haha ARC audio from your TV to your receiver will not do Lossless TrueHD Atmos. It will be lossy audio. You need to connect your K8500 to your TV from HDMI 1 to 1 input on your TV. The second HDMI should be connected to your receiver for audio.

Optical and HDMI audio from your TV to their TV speakers OR receiver will give you poor audio unless that is all you have.

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I AM connecting the second HDMI port. However the audio that that second port delivers is somehow contingent on what the OTHER HDMI port is plugged into. That's the entirety of my issue. I mentioned ARC as a workaround, but it is NOT what I want to use. I will try an optical cable but I have heard from many sources that an optical cable will not be able to deliver atmos.
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post #13296 of 14336 Old 10-25-2017, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post
The routine I suggested is designed to force the BDP to "forget" the pre-firmware update state of the TV, and give the HDMI 2 output sole responsibility for audio. You may want to try setting the audio output on the BDP to "AUTO" to see if that enables ATMOS to both sources, but the HDMI handshake may still screw things up.

Some AVR brands/models seem more susceptible to issues with audio sync over ARC connections; you may find that getting things working perfectly for disc playback does not translate into error-free playback with apps. I would think any AVR capable of processing ATMOS would also be able to "fake" ATMOS from any 7.1 signal?
tried the hard no-cable in power out for an hour reset - still no dice.

This error happens on the fly, you can pull the HDMI cable from the television and see the signal that the HDMI 2 out is sending to the receiver change from PCM Stereo(?!) to Atmos and back again when you plug it in.

Another user suggested an optical cable, not sure if it can carry atmos, but I will try it.
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post #13297 of 14336 Old 10-25-2017, 06:08 PM
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Tried Optical cable - on uncompressed bitstream it delivered dolby digital 5.1. On PCM it delivered Stereo, on PCMre encoded to DD it delivered 5.1

If you have managed to get optical on this player to deliver an uncompressed (or even lossy) atmos, please let me know what your audio settings were on the player.
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post #13298 of 14336 Old 10-25-2017, 06:12 PM
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I finally got around to checking my copy by loading the disc and playing some select scenes. It was a bit loud as the disc loaded, then it got really loud at the title screen. Playing the movie though: quiet. Whew! I thought it was gonna have to go back.

I hope/bet a firmware upgrade can make it go away, but for me, as long as it is quiet during the main movie, I can live with it.
Received my Spider Man Homecoming 4K today. Installed into the player, then immediately heard the rumbling. Removed, and could feel the disc wasn't completed properly. Rough edges all around. Took a white eraser, and smoothed the edges down. Works fine now without the noise. Saved all the pain in the butt swap out. If most of the discs aren't being finished correctly, then there will be a lot of issues. White eraser quick easy fix.
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post #13299 of 14336 Old 10-25-2017, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Wes Leavell View Post
Tried Optical cable - on uncompressed bitstream it delivered dolby digital 5.1. On PCM it delivered Stereo, on PCMre encoded to DD it delivered 5.1

If you have managed to get optical on this player to deliver an uncompressed (or even lossy) atmos, please let me know what your audio settings were on the player.
OK again. You will NEVER get uncompressed sound from ARC or optical. You may get "pretend" atmos from ARC but nothing more.

You must have a setting on the player checked that isn't allowing your audio to pass through to the receiver. I have my k8500 setup the same way, even though my receiver can receive and output 4K, I have the Samsung player hooked up to my TV and audio connected to my receiver.



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post #13300 of 14336 Old 10-25-2017, 07:39 PM
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I think there's been a misunderstanding.

I am connected as you show.

I will restate the issue since all the overlapping solutions presented seem to be muddying the waters.


I am not using ARC, I have only messed with ARC as a way to eliminate possibilities.


My previously working setup is as you show. HDMI 1 on the player to the TV and HDMI2 on the player to the receiver. Before the TV update this worked fine, and this still works fine on any other monitor / tv I have tried. it works as intended.

When I connect the LG tv now though. The signal coming from HDMI2 (audio only to receiver) on the blu ray outputs ONLY 2 channel Stereo PCM (despite being set to uncompressed , non-downmixed bitstream) as soon as I pull the HDMI cable from the TV, even while playing, the signal coming from HDMI2 becomes a TrueHD Atmos signal as it's supposed to.

The blu ray player's audio only HDMI2 for some reason sends a different signal depending on what is plugged into HDMI1. This happens even if the blu ray is the only audio source plugged into the receiver and the only video source to the TV.

(I have also tried HDMI out on auto like you show, and forcing it to HDMI2)
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post #13301 of 14336 Old 10-25-2017, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Wes Leavell View Post
The blu ray player's audio only HDMI2 for some reason sends a different signal depending on what is plugged into HDMI1. This happens even if the blu ray is the only audio source plugged into the receiver and the only video source to the TV.

(I have also tried HDMI out on auto like you show, and forcing it to HDMI2)
What very strange behavior. Maybe time to throw in the towel and try a different player?

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post #13302 of 14336 Old 10-25-2017, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Wes Leavell View Post
I think there's been a misunderstanding.

I am connected as you show.

I will restate the issue since all the overlapping solutions presented seem to be muddying the waters.


I am not using ARC, I have only messed with ARC as a way to eliminate possibilities.


My previously working setup is as you show. HDMI 1 on the player to the TV and HDMI2 on the player to the receiver. Before the TV update this worked fine, and this still works fine on any other monitor / tv I have tried. it works as intended.

When I connect the LG tv now though. The signal coming from HDMI2 (audio only to receiver) on the blu ray outputs ONLY 2 channel Stereo PCM (despite being set to uncompressed , non-downmixed bitstream) as soon as I pull the HDMI cable from the TV, even while playing, the signal coming from HDMI2 becomes a TrueHD Atmos signal as it's supposed to.

The blu ray player's audio only HDMI2 for some reason sends a different signal depending on what is plugged into HDMI1. This happens even if the blu ray is the only audio source plugged into the receiver and the only video source to the TV.

(I have also tried HDMI out on auto like you show, and forcing it to HDMI2)
Turn off PCM Downsampling. Turn off Dynamic Range Control. Both should be off no matter what.

Keep it at Bitstream (Unprocessed).

Make sure any HDMI Control and/or AnyNet is off as well. That shuts off any remote control handshaking between the TV and the player and the player and the receiver via HDMI. It's not in the Audio setup of the player (but it is in one of the lower settings menus to the left - I forget which one exactly). Turn it off in the TV and receiver as well. These features can basically arrest control from the user as a means of "friendly" automation. They normally cause chaos more than anything like the kind you are experiencing.

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post #13303 of 14336 Old 10-26-2017, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Wes Leavell View Post
It was my understanding that optical will not work for DD True-HD, which is the carrier for Atmos signals, I have an optical cable lying around, once I let my BD player sleep for a while and hard reset like suggested I will try optical as well
Bzzzt! Just a quick correction to this, because it's technically wrong and many people get it wrong. I know this is not your main issue.

Atmos is not synonymous with lossless compression or TrueHD audio.

Dolby Atmos object-based metadata can be carried as an extra bitstream with:
a Dolby TrueHD audio track (this is lossless)
OR
a Dolby Digital+ audio track (this is lossy)

It is perfectly possible for Dolby Atmos to be lossy - the second one. This is used by some streaming services.

DD+ Atmos is also allowed on discs, but just not very common.

When people talk about Atmos being carried over ARC, the only possible way is the second one, DD+, but this does not work on most TVs including Samsung TVs because it it out-of-spec for ARC. Also, if the soundtrack on the disc was Dolby TrueHD audio track (this is lossless), this is clearly never going to work over ARC because there's no DD+ track to send down the cable!

But please don't conflate "lossless audio" with "Atmos". HTH HAND
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post #13304 of 14336 Old 10-26-2017, 06:31 AM
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thanks for the clarifications, and all the help.

Talked to one of the sales reps I've used at a local home theater store about this, and he got back to me this morning.

He was able to reproduce the issue. All the settings were as people have suggested here, which is how I had them when things were working, but still when connected to the LG TV with the latest update, the blu ray player will not output atmos to the receiver over hdmi 2, only PCM 7.1. He believes that it's because of the way the TV returns it's capabilities now. Technically it SHOULD tell the player that it is capable of stereo / 5.1 / 7.1 / atmos and the formats in which it can deliver those. Apparently on the dolby side of things, it only says 'Stereo / Atmos' (I looked at the TV as an audio source with a PC and those are also the only 2 options listed, which is definitely odd). So when the player's HDMI 1 output polls the TV for capabilities it gets a rather unorthodox response, and adjusts the HDMI 2 signal for whatever reason.

Samsung says that LG Should fix it's handshake response, and LG says that samsung should have made HDMI 2 unrelated to HDMI1. Both are probably true, but as this issue only occurs in this exact hardware combination, and there's already a newer model of the player, I doubt they'll do anything about it.

Today I'm going to see if there's a high quality splitter that will let me send both TV and Receiver data from HDMI1 (Splitter was my first try, and I got atmos to the receiver via HDMI 1, but handshake from receiver said that HDMI was 2.0 and not 2.0a, so the splitter would not send HDR data to the TV, so it might take a better splitter, or a less smart splitter) if that won't work, I'll take the other advice I got here, and get a different player... I was saving up for an oppo, but I might have to find an interim one.

Thanks for all the advice. Sometimes I miss analog.
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post #13305 of 14336 Old 10-26-2017, 07:09 AM
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Bzzzt! Just a quick correction to this, because it's technically wrong and many people get it wrong. I know this is not your main issue.

Atmos is not synonymous with lossless compression or TrueHD audio.

Dolby Atmos object-based metadata can be carried as an extra bitstream with:
a Dolby TrueHD audio track (this is lossless)
OR
a Dolby Digital+ audio track (this is lossy)

It is perfectly possible for Dolby Atmos to be lossy - the second one. This is used by some streaming services.

DD+ Atmos is also allowed on discs, but just not very common.

When people talk about Atmos being carried over ARC, the only possible way is the second one, DD+, but this does not work on most TVs including Samsung TVs because it it out-of-spec for ARC. Also, if the soundtrack on the disc was Dolby TrueHD audio track (this is lossless), this is clearly never going to work over ARC because there's no DD+ track to send down the cable!

But please don't conflate "lossless audio" with "Atmos". HTH HAND

You are correct, I should have been saying lossless atmos and not just atmos. Interestingly, it was a 'solution' to this that LG pushed to the TV that has caused this issue for me. The last update for the 2017 LG OLED tvs was to address lossless atmos input sources. Before this update they could output (lossy) atmos over ARC or Optical via DD+, but as you said if it was getting it's signal from a TrueHD source, it couldn't pass that back as atmos. The update allows it to decode then re-encode the TrueHD atmos signal into a DD+ atmos signal, allowing arc and optical to serve lossy atmos from a lossless source. (Which ends up being a moot point since this introduces more audio lag than the TV's sync adjustment can counter).

So something in the handshake telling the player about this new 'capability' causes the player to misbehave and send a different output to my receiver.

Last edited by Wes Leavell; 10-26-2017 at 07:12 AM.
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post #13306 of 14336 Old 10-26-2017, 10:45 AM
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Yes, it is bizarre. It's possible that there may be a firmware update to fix it. Samsung don't seem to drop support for models like a stone as soon as the next one comes out as quickly as some manufacturers.

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post #13307 of 14336 Old 10-26-2017, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
Received my Spider Man Homecoming 4K today. Installed into the player, then immediately heard the rumbling. Removed, and could feel the disc wasn't completed properly. Rough edges all around. Took a white eraser, and smoothed the edges down. Works fine now without the noise. Saved all the pain in the butt swap out. If most of the discs aren't being finished correctly, then there will be a lot of issues. White eraser quick easy fix.
I went back and took a look at my disc and sure enough, the disc had a rough patch on the perimeter at the 2:00-3:00 position. I found a chunky eraser then went at it to smooth it out. I didn't get it totally smooth, but definitely knocked down the roughness.

Result: no noise beyond the normal disc spinning and track seeking. Thank you very much!!!! You've done your good deed for the day.
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post #13308 of 14336 Old 10-26-2017, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Wes Leavell View Post
You are correct, I should have been saying lossless atmos and not just atmos. Interestingly, it was a 'solution' to this that LG pushed to the TV that has caused this issue for me. The last update for the 2017 LG OLED tvs was to address lossless atmos input sources. Before this update they could output (lossy) atmos over ARC or Optical via DD+, but as you said if it was getting it's signal from a TrueHD source, it couldn't pass that back as atmos. The update allows it to decode then re-encode the TrueHD atmos signal into a DD+ atmos signal, allowing arc and optical to serve lossy atmos from a lossless source. (Which ends up being a moot point since this introduces more audio lag than the TV's sync adjustment can counter).

So something in the handshake telling the player about this new 'capability' causes the player to misbehave and send a different output to my receiver.
Is the behavior you describe limited to just streaming sources, or does it affect disc playback as well?

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post #13309 of 14336 Old 10-26-2017, 01:09 PM
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Is the behavior you describe limited to just streaming sources, or does it affect disc playback as well?

This was only for disc playback. I didn't use the players smart hub. Talked to a repair tech today who confirmed that the 'HDMI 1 / HDMI 2' ports on the player are not discreet, and that it's not dissimilar to a smart splitter that only allows video through HDMI1. He said he's seen bizarre cross-communication issues with this models ports before, but until now it's only been when people are trying to bypass HDCP with sketchy hardware. He was able to reproduce the problem as well, on a different model LG TV, but agreed that even if there is a patch to fix it it's probably not going to be soon, given the 'perfect storm' of hardware configuration and software versions that are required for things to go wrong. (The setup worked beautifully for me until the most recent LG Software patch on my TV).

I picked up a Sony X800 which has resolved / circumvented my issue, and I have a friend who is happy to buy the Samsung since it will work just fine for him and he won't "ever plug it into the kind of frankenstein nightmare" that I have.... he's not wrong.

Thanks again everyone for being so willing to help me out.
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post #13310 of 14336 Old 10-26-2017, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes Leavell View Post
This was only for disc playback. I didn't use the players smart hub. Talked to a repair tech today who confirmed that the 'HDMI 1 / HDMI 2' ports on the player are not discreet, and that it's not dissimilar to a smart splitter that only allows video through HDMI1. He said he's seen bizarre cross-communication issues with this models ports before, but until now it's only been when people are trying to bypass HDCP with sketchy hardware. He was able to reproduce the problem as well, on a different model LG TV, but agreed that even if there is a patch to fix it it's probably not going to be soon, given the 'perfect storm' of hardware configuration and software versions that are required for things to go wrong. (The setup worked beautifully for me until the most recent LG Software patch on my TV).

I picked up a Sony X800 which has resolved / circumvented my issue, and I have a friend who is happy to buy the Samsung since it will work just fine for him and he won't "ever plug it into the kind of frankenstein nightmare" that I have.... he's not wrong.

Thanks again everyone for being so willing to help me out.
Cool, glad you got a resolution and thankyou for posting this, this is golden information and will surely help other people in the future.

This information about the internals of the HDMI 1 / 2 ports is quite eye-opening. I think it leaves us all vulnerable to a possible future TV firmware update which will clobber our players.
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post #13311 of 14336 Old 10-26-2017, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
Cool, glad you got a resolution and thankyou for posting this, this is golden information and will surely help other people in the future.

This information about the internals of the HDMI 1 / 2 ports is quite eye-opening. I think it leaves us all vulnerable to a possible future TV firmware update which will clobber our players.
I haven't had that issue with the UBD-K8500 or the UBD-M9500 on a Samsung Q9 (all the Q Series are ATMOS-enabled via DD+/HDMI ARC). I can get ATMOS from both discs and streaming on my Denon AVR. I informed the relevant people at Samsung late this afternoon of Wes Leavell's experience, just so that they're aware of the potential for serious problems with ATMOS-enabled displays.
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post #13312 of 14336 Old 10-26-2017, 05:52 PM
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It's a combination of the port splitter issue, AND the fact that LG's latest handshake information is off-spec. The TV should return ALL the possible sound types it's capable of receiving/sending, at the moment the TV returns that it is capable of 'stereo' and 'Dolby Atmos' Probably something as simple as a coder replacing a hyphen with a comma. Though if someone else runs into this now, hopefully this discussion will be a result in their search.
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post #13313 of 14336 Old 10-27-2017, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
Received my Spider Man Homecoming 4K today. Installed into the player, then immediately heard the rumbling. Removed, and could feel the disc wasn't completed properly. Rough edges all around. Took a white eraser, and smoothed the edges down. Works fine now without the noise. Saved all the pain in the butt swap out. If most of the discs aren't being finished correctly, then there will be a lot of issues. White eraser quick easy fix.
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I went back and took a look at my disc and sure enough, the disc had a rough patch on the perimeter at the 2:00-3:00 position. I found a chunky eraser then went at it to smooth it out. I didn't get it totally smooth, but definitely knocked down the roughness.

Result: no noise beyond the normal disc spinning and track seeking. Thank you very much!!!! You've done your good deed for the day.
Good info here. Now appears the Sammy has some close tolerances inside causing discs with some extra "slag" material on the edge to rub and vibrate. Makes sense since some have reported the affected discs play fine in other players. If I get another out of tolerance disc I'll have to try it for myself as a cure to avoid the hassle of returns. Bookmarking this post for others in the future.
Thanks for the posts!
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post #13314 of 14336 Old 10-29-2017, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
Good info here. Now appears the Sammy has some close tolerances inside causing discs with some extra "slag" material on the edge to rub and vibrate. Makes sense since some have reported the affected discs play fine in other players. If I get another out of tolerance disc I'll have to try it for myself as a cure to avoid the hassle of returns. Bookmarking this post for others in the future.
Thanks for the posts!
For freeze ups, skipping, drops to slow - remove disc, spray with glass cleaner, wipe dry with soft cloth, or toilet tissue. Dry from the inside to the outside - NOT in a circle!
I have yet to return a disc in all the years of purchasing - it's either the white eraser, or the glass cleaner to remove oil slick that got slashed on the disc during manufacturing.

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post #13315 of 14336 Old 10-29-2017, 09:39 PM
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Will the 8500 play back BR HD 60P ???

I have a number of Blu Ray HD 60P discs that I burned myself over the last few years that will not play on a 2 year old 8500. They are all playing fine and in 60P 1920x1080 60 hertz progressive frame rate on Sony, Seiko and an other Samsung Blu Ray player.

Has anyone tried this ? My firmware is that of the time it was bought, did not do any updates.

BTW 8500 plays fine UHD burned on a BR disc as a HEVC file.

Thanks

Eugene

Hope someone will have software to burn REAL UHD DISCs for guys like me, a hobby 4K video nut.
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post #13316 of 14336 Old 10-30-2017, 10:10 AM
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FandangoNow

Has anyone heard if the Fandango Now app on this player is going to have HDR?
I
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post #13317 of 14336 Old 10-30-2017, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by katiehlvr2 View Post
Has anyone heard if the Fandango Now app on this player is going to have HDR?
I
At one time, there was HDR. However, it was removed and has never returned. So, it can work, but the question is whether or not it will be added back.
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post #13318 of 14336 Old 11-01-2017, 07:02 PM
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So been out of the loop for a bit.

Any update on this player getting Dolby Vision support? My tv and receiver supports it but this blu ray player is the one thing holding my system back from playing DV blu rays.
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post #13319 of 14336 Old 11-01-2017, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiler View Post
So been out of the loop for a bit.

Any update on this player getting Dolby Vision support? My tv and receiver supports it but this blu ray player is the one thing holding my system back from playing DV blu rays.
Not a chance. Samsung is not supporting Dolby Vision.

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post #13320 of 14336 Old 11-01-2017, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiler View Post
So been out of the loop for a bit.

Any update on this player getting Dolby Vision support? My tv and receiver supports it but this blu ray player is the one thing holding my system back from playing DV blu rays.
LMAO. Please do some homework. Samsung has developed HDR10+ and WILL NOT support DV.

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