World's First DolbyVision U-Ray Player? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 103 Old 07-01-2016, 08:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
Aww so they are saying 1 Billion colors is not enough to make a good picture? I say give us 10bit HDR that's mastered correctly and let someone else worry about the merits of 12bit.
10-bit (1.07 billion distinct colors for all RGB) is supposedly enough to display 1000 nits without much banding, or perhaps any.

To increase 1000 nits to 10000 nits dynamic range that the Dolby Vision standard, you need 12 bits.

The 12-bit signal uses 11-bits for the first 0-1000 nits range, which is 1 more than HDR10 uses. If they chose the curve this way it's probably because HDR10 still has some residual banding, I believe.

Exactly half of all permutations of possible values in those 12 bits are reserved for "less than" 1000 nits range, and half between 1000 nits and 10,000. This is because perception of luminance is log 10 based. (i.e. to perceive a star in the night sky as being one step brighter than another, requires it to actually be ten times brighter in reality).
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post #62 of 103 Old 07-01-2016, 08:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
I agree, on an upscaling OPPO on OLED the Blu-Ray higher bitrate of encode looks better. The issue is most UHD movies are upscaled from 2K at encode and 1080p is not that much lower than the 2K resolution. OPPO does such a great job at upscaling to 4K, the high fidelity of Blu-Ray encoding makes for a very solid upscaled picture.

I watched Independence Day UHD Blu-Ray and all the while I'm saying to myself "I know the regular Blu-Ray in OPPO can do this" and I vowed to never purchase another older movie on UHD disc again.

The UHD discs are starting to come off as a hustle to me. I've started buying Blu-Ray collections on eBay and stock up on bargain bin titles.. for the most part in my opinion, until someone shoot and edit a film all in 4K and they start to look like the LG demo videos, I think I'm sticking with Blu-Ray/OPPO.
10 bits isn't a hustle. Banding due to 8-bit quantization is visible in every single Bluray I own, one of the most obvious flaws. Less obvious ones are the fact that SDR simply crushes colors into white as the brightness goes up in the scene, and the mastering process has to make a decision about which range of colors to squash in the final presentation. Highlights in SDR are spread out and flattened which causes you to lose insight into the scene and notably, depth cues, which are VERY important to your perceptual system. This is why people say HDR looks "almost 3D" like, and that's because SDR crushes out vital depth information that your eyes would otherwise have in order to make sense of the lights of the scene, as they do in real life.

SDR is not a realistic image, not even close.

To consider that level of distortion acceptable would be akin to listening to a CD without a tweeter. SDR signals compared to HDR signals are the audio equivalent of an 11khz-22khz sampling rate, not enough to capture the 20-20khz range of frequencies we can discern. The visual system is similar in that respect. We can see far more than the SDR specification allows, and SDR forces a huge compression on the dynamics, much like the audio "loudness wars" compress the dynamics of CDs and hence loses sound quality. Much has been written about that topic.

You are missing a ton of possible colors, and color variations, the brighter a given image region is. UHD video could be easily considered pointless unless you own a huge TV or a projector if you aren't sitting close enough to notice the increase in resolution. But increase in color gamut, dynamic range, and all without banding, are the magic sauce that will sell UHD. HDR really is that good. You're right, in some scenes HDR will not make a huge difference if you are going by memory, but HDR images are far punchier.

Of course you are free to only buy Blurays, stream low quality Netflix, or even DVDs for that matter. Nobody is stopping you.
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post #63 of 103 Old 07-01-2016, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by BakeApples View Post
Are you sure about this? Can you point to a source for this claim because i don`t think it supports Dolby Vision.
I just looked into it more. There was some websites that said the player supported it. But digging more into it turns out it does not. Guess I'll hold onto my k8500.
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post #64 of 103 Old 07-01-2016, 08:38 AM
 
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I do find it sad that no UHD Bluray players support Dolby Vision yet, that's what I'm waiting for. Dynamic metadata is nothing to sneeze at either apparently, if HDR10 had it (and it will get it HDMI 2.1, but I'm not sure about UHD Bluray specification) films would look better.

There was an article on AVS recently about the difference between static and dynamic HDR metadata and its impact on image quality in HDR10 and it was pretty noticeable, even dramatic at times.

Dolby Vision was perhaps ahead of its time but I do think their standard is worth supporting (although an open "HDR12" standard would be better). I do especially like their encoding technique which allows them to pack Dolby Vision into 8-bit RGB signals (12-bit 420 + dynamic metadata over HDMI 1.4 and above).

Are there any Dolby Vision encoded UHD Blurays out now or scheduled?

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post #65 of 103 Old 07-01-2016, 08:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
10 bits isn't a hustle. Banding due to 8-bit quantization is visible in every single Bluray I own, one of the most obvious flaws. Less obvious ones are the fact that SDR simply crushes colors into white as the brightness goes up in the scene, and the mastering process has to make a decision about which range of colors to squash in the final presentation. Highlights in SDR are spread out and flattened which causes you to lose insight into the scene and notably, depth cues, which are VERY important to your perceptual system. This is why people say HDR looks "almost 3D" like, and that's because SDR crushes out vital depth information that your eyes would otherwise have in order to make sense of the lights of the scene, as they do in real life.

SDR is not a realistic image, not even close.

To consider that level of distortion acceptable would be akin to listening to a CD without a tweeter. SDR signals compared to HDR signals are the audio equivalent of an 11khz-22khz sampling rate, not enough to capture the 20-20khz range of frequencies we can discern. The visual system is similar in that respect. We can see far more than the SDR specification allows, and SDR forces a huge compression on the dynamics, much like the audio "loudness wars" compress the dynamics of CDs and hence loses sound quality. Much has been written about that topic.

You are missing a ton of possible colors, and color variations, the brighter a given image region is. UHD video could be easily considered pointless unless you own a huge TV or a projector if you aren't sitting close enough to notice the increase in resolution. But increase in color gamut, dynamic range, and all without banding, are the magic sauce that will sell UHD. HDR really is that good. You're right, in some scenes HDR will not make a huge difference if you are going by memory, but HDR images are far punchier.

Of course you are free to only buy Blurays, stream low quality Netflix, or even DVDs for that matter. Nobody is stopping you.
I actually own the best in display (LG G6) and players and the 4K BD does not eclipse the entertainment experience over BD presentations. The Dolby Vision content on VUDU and Amazon streaming is exceptional and is better to me than the discs counterparts. The producers of the current HDR10 4K BD content may not be using the medium to its full potential.
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post #66 of 103 Old 07-01-2016, 12:23 PM
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Dynamic metadata would be nice and I doubt i'll ever own anything over 500 nits anyways. I'll tell you what, I have 3 HDR movies now. Revenant, Deadpool and life of pie and man it's just like looking through a glass window.

Just crazy how good it is.

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post #67 of 103 Old 07-01-2016, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post
Correct.


The dust has not settled with HDR.
Until there is some kind of standard everyone can agree on it's a bit of a mess really.
The titles I have seen often look bizarre and artificial.
It doesn't look artificial on my JS9500, it looks truer to life. Our eyes are HDR. We are getting closer to a TV looking like a window instead of a screen.

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post #68 of 103 Old 07-01-2016, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Leong View Post
I actually own the best in display (LG G6) and players and the 4K BD does not eclipse the entertainment experience over BD presentations. The Dolby Vision content on VUDU and Amazon streaming is exceptional and is better to me than the discs counterparts. The producers of the current HDR10 4K BD content may not be using the medium to its full potential.
Couldn't disagree more. Streaming DV/HDR is ok, but it doesn't compare to what I've seen on disc by a long shot. Namely Mad Max and The Revenant, which are phenomenal on disc / HDR10.

It may be your TV. I think my JS9500 does a better job then my 2016 LG OLED. It's probably because the OLED's just don't get bright enough yet. This years shoot-out voters seem to disagree, but they were also watching a KS9800 and not a JS9500, and who knows how dark the room was.
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post #69 of 103 Old 07-01-2016, 11:37 PM
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World's First DolbyVision U-Ray Player?

I wonder if the forthcoming Oppo player will support DV.

And don't forget the rumor about HDMI 2.1 and adaptive HDR 10.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1457513362

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1463138030

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post #70 of 103 Old 07-01-2016, 11:56 PM
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And also:
Dolby Vision vs HDR-10 4K Blu-ray on 2016 LG OLED TV

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/dolby...1606214303.htm
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post #71 of 103 Old 07-02-2016, 02:22 PM
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HDR10 - Metadata: Static (per title)
Doby Vision - Dynamic (scene-by-scene)


That's the biggest one right there! If there is anything that's wrong with HDR10 it's no DYNAMC meta data and no standard of how they are mastered.

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post #72 of 103 Old 07-02-2016, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
HDR10 - Metadata: Static (per title)
Doby Vision - Dynamic (scene-by-scene)


That's the biggest one right there! If there is anything that's wrong with HDR10 it's no DYNAMC meta data and no standard of how they are mastered.
Right now though HDR10 is the only game in town for UHD BDs. Until they release some DV UHD BDs along with a DV player, HDR10 is what we have for the highest quality content. Personally I have been very please with the HDR10 on most of the UHD BDs.

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post #73 of 103 Old 07-03-2016, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
Are there any Dolby Vision encoded UHD Blurays out now or scheduled?
We haven't heard any announcement from Dolby for the home physical media market yet. What we have seen is that many studios have announced their partnership to produce Dolby Vision movies for theater distribution and some streaming movies in DV.

I would guess that 2017 might be the year we see Dolby Vision SoCs in UHD blu-ray players, even though one manufacturer's DV SoC should be available before the end of this year.
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post #74 of 103 Old 07-03-2016, 12:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kristoffer77 View Post
And also:
Dolby Vision vs HDR-10 4K Blu-ray on 2016 LG OLED TV

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/dolby...1606214303.htm
Great link, thanks.

Anyone who doesn't grok the difference between SDR and HDR can simply compare them in those images. Especially, looking at the size of the sun which blooms / oversaturates to a much larger size in the HDR10 scene compared to Dolby Vision, which maintains a much smaller radius of the sun (before becoming over-exposed).

It should also be noted that the Dolby Vision spec is nowhere near being close to being exploited by current TVs, so I don't think HDR10, even with dynamic metadata added, will be able to compete long term.

The difference between Dolby Vision and HDR10 is the exact same magnitude as the difference between HDR10 and SDR. This may not matter all that much in many scenes but the narrowing of the spectral highlights should, and that does indeed impart of a lot of spatial depth cues and insights into the scene which would otherwise be smeared into oblivion.

I do prefer open standards, and it's worrisome that there are no DV players or discs out yet. I don't see why one would need a SoC to implement DV. You can handle dynamic metadata entirely in software. I guess they do it that way to maintain their licensing fees.

Hopefully HDR12 and HDMI 2.1 with dynamic metadata will keep prices down. I don't really see what's different, on the outside, between DV and HDR12 + dynamic metadata. Both DV and HDR10 use PQ Gamma 2084 so I don't really see why it's all that important to use a closed standard (though I will certainly buy it if I can).
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post #75 of 103 Old 07-03-2016, 12:41 PM
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I wonder if the forthcoming Oppo player will support DV.
see this image

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post #76 of 103 Old 07-03-2016, 01:31 PM
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If they use that chip, I won’t have DV support?
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post #77 of 103 Old 07-03-2016, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
Dynamic metadata would be nice and I doubt i'll ever own anything over 500 nits anyways. I'll tell you what, I have 3 HDR movies now. Revenant, Deadpool and life of pie and man it's just like looking through a glass window.

Just crazy how good it is.
I watched Life of Pi a couple nights back on Blu Ray w my Sony UHP-H1 4K upscaling player and Vizio P65. This looked amazing, I can't imagine it looking better.
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post #78 of 103 Old 07-03-2016, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kristoffer77 View Post
If they use that chip, I won’t have DV support?
Did you miss the text "HDR10 Open standard and Dolby Vision IP are also supported"? Look at the text above Features.
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post #79 of 103 Old 07-03-2016, 03:27 PM
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World's First DolbyVision U-Ray Player?

Ahh, yes, missed that!
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post #80 of 103 Old 07-03-2016, 03:36 PM
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Even though it would suck because it would require us to shell out more money for new receivers but I would think that Dolby would just make things easier and license the DV chip into receivers so that people that have the receiver to the TV would be able to apply DV meta data even if the tv itself doesn't have the DV chip

Now I know it's probably not as easy as what I made it out to be but could make things interesting
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post #81 of 103 Old 07-03-2016, 09:07 PM
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Even though it would suck because it would require us to shell out more money for new receivers but I would think that Dolby would just make things easier and license the DV chip into receivers so that people that have the receiver to the TV would be able to apply DV meta data even if the tv itself doesn't have the DV chip

Now I know it's probably not as easy as what I made it out to be but could make things interesting
This is probably a case where its best to have two distinct HDMI paths one for video one for audio. Forget about the AVR being able to compete as a source with its video processing, its behind now.

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post #82 of 103 Old 07-04-2016, 05:15 PM
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HD Guru interviewed Roland Vlaicu of Dolby about DV support on UBD:

Dolby Vision Ultra HD Blu-ray Support Awaits Mediatek SoC
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post #83 of 103 Old 08-02-2016, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
HD Guru interviewed Roland Vlaicu of Dolby about DV support on UBD:

Dolby Vision Ultra HD Blu-ray Support Awaits Mediatek SoC
I am so confused so after reading this. Are the new LG OLEDS already obsolete because they are 10bit not 12bit? The LG E6/G6/B6 have the DolbyVision chip in them and are HDR-10 capable. So will the UHD player be 12bit and when watching a DV UHD Disc you would use the processor in the UHD player instead of the TV? I also assume everything streaming now through kudu, netflixs and amazon are all compressed and true bliss is going to come from an actual DV UHD Disc played on a DV enabled UHD Player.
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post #84 of 103 Old 08-02-2016, 09:15 AM
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Are the new LG OLEDS already obsolete because they are 10bit not 12bit? ... So will the UHD player be 12bit and when watching a DV UHD Disc you would use the processor in the UHD player instead of the TV?
DolbyVision sources are encoded at 12bit; yes, DolbyVision devices presumably could scale down to a LG 10-bit color display.

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I also assume everything streaming now through kudu, netflixs and amazon are all compressed and true bliss is going to come from an actual DV UHD Disc played on a DV enabled UHD Player.
Yes, the network will always be variable and today, the streaming encoding is lower quality than UHD blu-ray. Whether you can tell the difference depends on your eyes, your UHD player capabilities + settings, and your display capabilities + settings versus the source encode+network for streaming plus your eyes+display.
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First Dolby Vision UHD Blu-rays & players reportedly coming in 2017

News from FlatPanelsHD

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1474359278
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OPPO UDP-203 & OPPO UDP-205;
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ml#post1498802

"Oppo's new UHD BD player. Been confirmed it is technically able to do Dolby Vision but still in certification process."
https://twitter.com/BigJohnnyArcher/...64124137689088
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post #87 of 103 Old 09-21-2016, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
OPPO UDP-203 & OPPO UDP-205;
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ml#post1498802

"Oppo's new UHD BD player. Been confirmed it is technically able to do Dolby Vision but still in certification process."
https://twitter.com/BigJohnnyArcher/...64124137689088
That's good news! Time to return my Panasonic DMP-UB900 and stick with the Samsung until the Oppo 203 is released!

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post #88 of 103 Old 09-21-2016, 11:24 AM
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That's good news! Time to return my Panasonic DMP-UB900 and stick with the Samsung until the Oppo 203 is released!


Be careful Oppo is not stating that their unit will do DV or that it is or not capable of DV

The only thing they have stated is that their video processing chip is from a manufacturer that has a close relationship with Dolby and maybe able to do DV


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post #89 of 103 Old 09-21-2016, 02:26 PM
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I just wish current HDR10 can evolve to Dynamic HDR10, then we don't need to deal with the proprietary Dolby Vision. We need an open HDR standard so every major MFR like Samsung, Sony can participate.
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post #90 of 103 Old 09-21-2016, 03:09 PM
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Dolby Vision and the future open standard SMPTE 2094-10 Dynamic HDR should likely be the same, leaving out the standardization stuff (SMPTE 2094-10 vs. Dolby-documented dynamic metadata, SMPTE 2094-10 metadata in HEVC stream vs. Dolby Vision metadata in separate stream, Standardized HDMI transport vs. Wrapped data transport over HDMI 1.4).
As SMPTE 2094-10 is an open standard, it seems that TV manufacturers can have their own SMPTE 2094-10 implementation and don’t have to use and pay the current Dolby DoVi IP color volume mapping. They will only pay the SMPTE 2094-10 fees, as they pay the open standard HEVC fees.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post46182961



Dynamic HDR: using SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qgKFYEXAIw

Broadcast HDR: using SMPTE ST 2084 PQ (i.e. Dolby Vision / HDR10) and using HLG
http://www.itu.int/en/mediacentre/Pages/2016-PR27.aspx
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsKmh5mW8AA46Z9.jpg
http://www.astra2.org/eutelsat-launc...r-uhd-channel/

Royalty-free Internet HDR: VP9-PQ, VP9-HLG
https://source.android.com/devices/t...splay/hdr.html
http://www.streamingmedia.com/Articl...ts-111296.aspx
http://www.streamingmedia.com/Articl...ticleID=110383


Like HDR10, VP9-PQ is an incomplete HDR technology: the dynamic metadata adaptation for consistent visual, one of the 3 fundamental HDR building blocks, is missing.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post46891297
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=362
It won’t be surprised if the royalty-free VP9-PQ will support the royalty-free SMPTE ST 2094-40 dynamic metadata proposed by Samsung.
https://kws.smpte.org/kws/public/pro...project_id=379



SMPTE 2094 Dynamic HDR timeline:
. Dynamic metadata standard specification to be endorsed / published
. Standard dynamic HDR format(s) to be adopted / supported by studios
. Standard dynamic metadata tools / implementations of the HDR ecosystem from the post-production to the TV playback to be created / carried out

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post
I think the HDR timeline might look like this:

2014: SMPTE 2084 added to HEVC
2015: SMPTE 2084 used in consumer products
2016: HLG added to HEVC
2017: HLG used in consumer products
2018: SMPTE 2094 and ICtCp added to HEVC
2019: SMPTE 2094 and ICtCp used in consumer products
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post
I think that SMPTE 2094 will get added to the HEVC draft this year but that the next version of HEVC could get released in 2018. Granted they might release the next version of HEVC in 2017 if there are enough companies pushing for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post
The current plan for the 5th edition of HEVC is that it will be technically finished in late 2017 and approved/published in early 2018.
HEVC H.265 (v5) timing: 2017-10
http://www.itu.int/ITU-T/workprog/wp...18&isn_qu=2025
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