Official Oppo UDP-205 UHD Blu-ray player Anticipation Thread - Page 30 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #871 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
DSD has always resulted in less bass in my system. I've never understood the need to use DSD because of it. Is there something I'm doing wrong?
Most likely you are expecting Crossover processing to steer bass from the main speaker channels to your Sub. As I posted above, no audio processing is possible when using DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion. This includes Crossover processing.

This is true regardless of whether that DSD is being turned into Analog in the OPPO (for its Analog outputs) or in your AVR after sending HDMI DSD to the AVR. Audio processing is done digitally on LPCM format digital audio, so can only happen if the DSD is first converted to LPCM.

So if your speakers are not "full range" -- if you NEED Crossover processing so the Sub can take over bass output for them -- you should use SACD Output PCM.

With SACD Output DSD, the only audio that will go to your Sub is what's already contained in the .1 channel of 5.1 DSD tracks.

--------------------------

Here's another consideration:

When setting up for multi-channel Analog, you need to arrange for the correct amount of "Sub Boost" to be applied external to the player so that the Sub output matches the other channels in level. This is done using the volume knob on the Sub itself, in conjunction with any Sub Boost automatically applied because you have passed the Sub signal through your AVR. (By default, AVRs typically add 10dB Sub Boost as a matter of course.)

Now, the required amount of Sub Boost when using the multi-channel Analog outputs is:

1) +10dB if the player is NOT set to do Crossover processing, or

2) +15dB if the player IS set to do Crossover processing. The extra +5dB is needed to provide headroom for the additional steered bass now being included in the Sub output -- to avoid clipping the input of the device at the other end of the Sub output cable.

Again, this Sub Boost is something you arrange to happen EXTERNAL to the player.

Now normally you control whether Crossover processing is happening for the multi-channel Analog outputs by how you have set the Large/Small status of the speakers for multi-channel Analog output. If ALL speakers are set to Large then no Crossover is happening. If ANY speakers are set to Small then Crossover is happening.

But when using DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion, no Crossover processing is happening REGARDLESS of the Large/Small settings for the multi-channel Analog outputs. So the required Sub Boost is +10dB regardless.

Since no bass steering is happening, the Sub Boost only affects reproduction of the .1 channel of 5.1 DSD tracks. Typically you won't hear a problem if you screw this up because MANY studios don't actually record any content in the .1 channel of their 5.1 SACD tracks. Instead they put all the bass in the regular speaker channels.

So even though you may have your Sub Boost set +5dB too high, you don't hear excess bass because the 5.1 tracks you are playing are actually 5.0 content.

Instead you hear DIMINSHED bass because the Crossover processing you were depending upon (since your speakers are not "full range") is not happening.

Again you can avoid all this complexity by allowing the player to "process" your DSD tracks -- by setting SACD Output to PCM.

-------------------------

When setting up for multi-channel Analog it is wise to confirm you are applying the correct Sub Boost (external to the player) by checking with a calibration disc and an SPL (Sound Pressure Level) meter.

For non-DSD playback, I recommend the 5.1 or 7.1 LPCM "Channel ID" tracks on AIX Audio Calibration, Blu-ray, available direct from OPPO.

For DSD playback I recommend tracks 43-48, the speaker level tracks, in the 5.1 content on "Stay in Tune With PentaTone", SACD, available from Amazon. (Do NOT use the similar sounding channel ID tracks found earlier on this SACD as they have a raised bass level built in to make it easier to hear the Sub.)

When things are set CORRECTLY, all of the speaker channels, including the Sub, will measure the SAME SPL level. Among other things this will prove you have the correct Sub Boost applied external to the player. Be sure to check your setup both ways: Normal content and DSD content. And keep in mind the change you may need to make in external Sub Boost if you like to switch between SACD Output DSD and PCM for playback of DSD content.
--Bob

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Last edited by Bob Pariseau; 04-22-2017 at 03:49 AM.
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post #872 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idred View Post
Hi guys, just need your opinion here.

If all I use the blue ray player for is movies and have an Integra 11.2 channel receiver.

Is there really any reason to buy the 205 over the 203?

I just don't see any benefit if I'm just passing HDMI signals out of the blue ray player.
In general that's correct. Stick with the 203 and use HDMI for audio.

But one new consideration with the 205 is that OPPO, for the first time, has introduced special Anti-Jitter processing for its Audio HDMI output socket. See the discussion about this earlier in this thread, and also the white paper on this topic posted by OPPO on their Support page for the 205.
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post #873 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Does it have better picture quality via HDMI compared to other UHD player brands that justify paying $1300? Personally I don't need all those analog outputs, they are just useless crap, All what I want is one HDMI output for both video and audio, then my receiver takes care of the lossless audio and routes the video to my screen, My receiver has a decent 24/192 DAC no need to have one on the player.
In your case you should definitely get the OPPO 203 instead, or some other brand of player.
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post #874 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Franchot View Post
California is too tax-happy. I will have to wait until it shows up at Crutchfield's to bank some savings. By that time, hopefully, all the early bugs will be squashed.

I'm interested to hear how well the headphone amp has been improved. My 105 struggles to power my Audeze LCD-3 cans.
I just noticed last night that Crutchfield now has the 205 up for pre-order. They aren't stating an availability date yet.
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post #875 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Comp1demon View Post
Jumped on The Revenant, Martian and Hacksaw Ridge (got all 3 for $60 shipped new). Between your suggestion and the guy before you. I got one you recommended, One he recommened and one I wanted to get.

Now waiting for the 205 to arrive.
The Martian and Hacksaw Ridge are good looking movies, but be aware, those movies are 2K DIs upscaled.
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post #876 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 05:15 AM
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The cleanest, sharpest UHD I've watched is Passengers.
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post #877 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 05:33 AM
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Bob,
Thanks for the detailed explanation of how DSD vs PCM is handled. I just checked the XMC-1 manual and it confirms that there is no bass management done to DSD as DSD. Any bass management, including Dirac, is only done to PCM data. The only processing that it can do is expand 5.1 to 7.1. No bass management. Seem's that the people who own SACD/DSD have made it virtually 'untouchable'.
My fronts are bookshelves so, although I will try DSD, I'm betting PCM will be the way to go in my system.
Should be able to test this out next Wednesday.

Tom
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post #878 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 05:34 AM
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Wait. Does the 205 offer Netflix and streaming???
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post #879 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by 370ZYZFR1 View Post
Wait. Does the 205 offer Netflix and streaming???
There are no Internet streaming apps (like Netflix) on the 205. It's possible OPPO may add apps later, but there's certainly no guarantee of that.

The 205 CAN stream media files for playback from an SMB or DLNA server you have set up on your in-house network.
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post #880 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 05:57 AM
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am I the only one who see's this a a small thumb in the eye to those who bought the one that just came out? I was going to now ill wait. :/
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post #881 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 06:02 AM
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^ Huh? OPPO announced the 205 player was coming in their FAQ for the 203 on the day the 203 was launched.
--Bob
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post #882 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pitbull0669 View Post
am I the only one who see's this a a small thumb in the eye to those who bought the one that just came out? I was going to now ill wait. :/
Since you're posting here, you must have noticed the message starting this thread was dated December 13, 2016…
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post #883 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post
Bob,
Thanks for the detailed explanation of how DSD vs PCM is handled. I just checked the XMC-1 manual and it confirms that there is no bass management done to DSD as DSD. Any bass management, including Dirac, is only done to PCM data. The only processing that it can do is expand 5.1 to 7.1. No bass management. Seem's that the people who own SACD/DSD have made it virtually 'untouchable'.
My fronts are bookshelves so, although I will try DSD, I'm betting PCM will be the way to go in my system.
Should be able to test this out next Wednesday.

Tom
Even the 5.1 to 7.1 expansion is likely not "real". Most likely they are simply copying the Side channels into the Rears -- perhaps with some Volume attenuation to make that less obvious.

DSD was intended as an archival format (for magnetic tape content), from which you could directly render any distribution format you wanted, such as LPCM digital files, or making new tapes.

But it is lousy for editing or processing while staying as DSD.
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post #884 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 06:18 AM
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So what's the diff Between the 203 and 205 concerning picture quality? I waited to buy this but honestly without streaming apps seems like a waste.

Does 203 support future Dolby vision?
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post #885 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by 370ZYZFR1 View Post
So what's the diff Between the 203 and 205 concerning picture quality?
None.

Quote:
I waited to buy this but honestly without streaming apps seems like a waste.
Ok.

Quote:
Does 203 support future Dolby vision?
Yes.

-Bill

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post #886 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 370ZYZFR1 View Post
So what's the diff Between the 203 and 205 concerning picture quality? I waited to buy this but honestly without streaming apps seems like a waste.
As stated above, there is no PQ difference.

The only reason to purchase a 205 over a 203 is if you are an audiophile and want a dedicated two-channel output, a headphone output, or jitter reduction in the HDMI out being used to feed an external DAC.

For perhaps 90% of purchasers, the UDP-203 is the machine to get.
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post #887 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 06:40 AM
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^ There are also additional digital audio *INPUTS* on the 205: Asynchronous USB DAC Input, Optical Digital Input, and Coax Digital Input.

The multi-channel Analog audio outs of the 205 also get an improvement over those on the 203, along with the addition of Dedicated Stereo Analog outs.
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post #888 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idred View Post
Hi guys, just need your opinion here.

If all I use the blue ray player for is movies and have an Integra 11.2 channel receiver.

Is there really any reason to buy the 205 over the 203?

I just don't see any benefit if I'm just passing HDMI signals out of the blue ray player.
In your case, 203 probably is what you need, unless the "movies" are musicals or concerts. For regular Hollywood movies, the DAC in your receiver should be good enough.
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post #889 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post
Bob,
Thanks for the detailed explanation of how DSD vs PCM is handled. I just checked the XMC-1 manual and it confirms that there is no bass management done to DSD as DSD. Any bass management, including Dirac, is only done to PCM data. The only processing that it can do is expand 5.1 to 7.1. No bass management. Seem's that the people who own SACD/DSD have made it virtually 'untouchable'.
My fronts are bookshelves so, although I will try DSD, I'm betting PCM will be the way to go in my system.
Should be able to test this out next Wednesday.

Tom
Using Analog outs Outlaw Audio used to make the ICBM, a multi channel analog bass manager.

I had/have one and it worked perfectly.

As things got better on the digital side I eventually shelved it but if you really want to do what I think is being described that is what you need.

I had mine up for sale for a while, be aware, LOTS of wires. 16 to do a full 7.1 setup.
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post #890 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 07:13 AM
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Am I reading (Oppo's website) correctly that the 205 will not be able to natively decode, i.e. D/A convert, DSD 128x? And has to convert to PCM first?
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post #891 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 07:21 AM
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Am I reading (Oppo's website) correctly that the 205 will not be able to natively decode, i.e. D/A convert, DSD 128x? And has to convert to PCM first?
That's what it says. Surprised me too. I've got a request in for details but don't have a response yet.

DSD playback through the USB DAC Input, which goes up to 2.0 DSD512, must be DSD as there's no processing path for conversion to LPCM there.
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post #892 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
DSD has always resulted in less bass in my system. I've never understood the need to use DSD because of it. Is there something I'm doing wrong?
Your observation might be totally correct. Less bass? Maybe. But deeper? Heck yes (in my system anyway). But it's also much cleaner bass in DSD. And for the record... When listening to 5.1 channel music, my system is comprised of (8)12" drivers and (6)10" drivers, not to mention 2500w of clean Krell power. So I can detect/feel deeper bass quite easily.
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post #893 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
Since you're posting here, you must have noticed the message starting this thread was dated December 13, 2016…
yes
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post #894 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 08:16 AM
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DSD to PCM

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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
^ Where do you see a spec like that for DSD128? My understanding is conversion to LPCM is user selectable for that just like for DSD64.

I see what you spotted. I'm checking on this.
--Bob
Maybe there was an answer but I have probably missed. Here is the info I got from Oppo customer services regarding the subject. Maybe it is already known but just decided to share it.


Question :

Lossless High-resolution Audio
Audio format support has been expanded to multi-channel DSD64/128, as well as 192kHz/24-bit PCM used in high-resolution lossless formats such AIFF, ALAC, APE, FLAC and WAV. (DSD64 is played back in native mode or converted to PCM, DSD128 converted to PCM.)

At the same time it says

Asynchronous USB DAC and Coaxial/Optical Inputs
An asynchronous USB DAC input supports sample rates up to 768 kHz PCM and DSD 512. For additional convenience and flexibility, the UDP-205 can convert digital signals from cable and satellite boxes, televisions, video game consoles and other digital transports with coaxial and optical digital outputs to analog.

Could you please clarify this.
- If I use DSD512 will it be payed in native mode or converted to PCM?
- Why it says it supports DSD128 although DAC supports DSD512?

Answer1 :

DSD256 is through Asynchronous USB only, while DSD64 and DSD128 are supported on attached USB storage and through DLNA/SMB streaming. So if you wanted native DSD256, you need to connect the player to a computer with Asynchronous USB.

Best Regards,

Customer Service

Answer2 :

The decoder chipset is just not able to clock to DSD256, which is why DSD256 is not available when the player is doing the decoding and only available when the computer is doing the decoding.

Best Regards,

Customer Service

Answer3:

The decoder is not able to clock and output DSD128 natively, so the player has to convert it first to PCM before it can pass it to the DAC for processing.

Best Regards,

Customer Service
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post #895 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post
Probably not.

-Bill
So the HDMI 2.0 out (directly to 1080p projector) is backwards compatible? I don't want to have to run the HDMI 1.4 to the AVR and then to the projector.
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post #896 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
The issue you've read about on the 203 is a problem with establishing proper sync between audio and video when using the HDMI Input from different source devices and across all the types of supported input formats. OPPO has corrected part of that, but there's still work to be done.

It has nothing to do with the Anti-Jitter circuit which is part of the Audio HDMI output in the 205. I.e., the 205 will have that same A/V Sync problem for content played into its HDMI Input as the 203 until OPPO finishes the bug fix there.

The short answer is that video processing in the 203 and 205 is identical.
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Thanks Bob.
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post #897 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
Even the 5.1 to 7.1 expansion is likely not "real". Most likely they are simply copying the Side channels into the Rears -- perhaps with some Volume attenuation to make that less obvious.

DSD was intended as an archival format (for magnetic tape content), from which you could directly render any distribution format you wanted, such as LPCM digital files, or making new tapes.

But it is lousy for editing or processing while staying as DSD.
--Bob
Bob,
Yes, it just copies sides to rears.

I decided to try the SACD OUTPUT>DSD/PCM experiment early using my 203. I much prefer DSD, but that's because somewhere in between the 203 and the XMC-1 it changes PCM from 5.1 to 2.0.
Oppo is set for SACD PRIORITY> MULTI CHANNEL.
If the 203 is set to DSD then the XMC-1 shows 5.1. If the 203 is set to PCM then the XMC-1 shows it receiving 2.0. The Oppo screen shows PCM 5.1, but the XMC-1 is receiving only 2.0??
It doesn't matter what I set HDMI AUDIO FORMAT to.
Must be a quirk in the XMC-1 or I'm missing a setting somewhere.
Bottom line is for me SACD OUTPUT>DSD is where it sounds and works best.

Tom

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post #898 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 08:38 AM
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Finally the Oppo 205 is available. Best UHD player on the market? I think so.
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post #899 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 08:50 AM
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To anyone in the know: Do you anticipate the 205s that people are now receiving to be exhibit the same bug-a-boos that currently plague the 203?
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post #900 of 1137 Old 04-22-2017, 08:55 AM
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Finally the Oppo 205 is available. Best UHD player on the market? I think so.
...why?...
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