UHD Blu-ray players (All) | Comparisons... - Page 21 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #601 of 971 Old 03-01-2017, 03:39 PM
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I'd have to go back and look at my posts from that night(like 3 weeks ago is my guess), but the HDMI IN played a 4k movie(believe strip was engaged) from the Sammy player without HDR. I didn't shut HDR OFF to see what would happen(assume 709), just wanted to see what it would do.
Gotta do that again and write it down for certain.

Why waste $ on more cheap stuff, it's like challenging a dragon with a pocket knife.
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post #602 of 971 Old 03-01-2017, 05:09 PM
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Why pay more for a UHD player?

Okay so I thought to ask this question because I see things like I bought this UHD player and the PQ is better than that UHD player type thing.

So I started to think to myself... is it the UHD player that has an effect on PQ or is it the TV itself?
I mean all the UHD player is doing is sending codes to the TV right?

Maybe someone that has more knowledge on this subject can shed some light.

I mean I understand that different UHD players offer different features like apps, maybe more features on the audio side of things etc, but when it comes to strictly PQ how does one differ from the other.

I wonder if a blind study experiment was done where one all the UHD players were playing the same content on the same TV if people can accurately pick out which UHD player is playing what.
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post #603 of 971 Old 03-01-2017, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the7mcs View Post
Okay so I thought to ask this question because I see things like I bought this UHD player and the PQ is better than that UHD player type thing.

So I started to think to myself... is it the UHD player that has an effect on PQ or is it the TV itself?
I mean all the UHD player is doing is sending codes to the TV right?

Maybe someone that has more knowledge on this subject can shed some light.

I mean I understand that different UHD players offer different features like apps, maybe more features on the audio side of things etc, but when it comes to strictly PQ how does one differ from the other.

I wonder if a blind study experiment was done where one all the UHD players were playing the same content on the same TV if people can accurately pick out which UHD player is playing what.
UHD Blue Ray players do not improve Blue Ray disc picture quality. Although they have the capability to upscale (to 4k), the heavy lifting is done by the display. The real improvement comes when you have a UHD Blue Ray deck (they all have HDR 10, by convention), combined with a 4K TV with HDR, using a 4K disk with HDR, Mastered in 4K. That last one is "REAL" important. It will knock your socks off on a 65 inch or larger display. The PQ quality is in another planet as compared with 2K Blue Ray. Whether you want to invest in this equipment or not is your decision, but the deck alone will not do it.

Cheers

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post #604 of 971 Old 03-01-2017, 08:22 PM
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I can tell you it makes a lot of difference. I have a 4k UHD Player, a real UHD 4k Disc, and an HDR TV.

HDR makes it look soooo good even on the fake4k discs.

I can tell you that once you have all that you will be amazed by the picture quality!

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post #605 of 971 Old 03-01-2017, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Ralarcon View Post
UHD Blue Ray players do not improve Blue Ray disc picture quality. Although they have the capability to upscale (to 4k), the heavy lifting is done by the display. The real improvement comes when you have a UHD Blue Ray deck (they all have HDR 10, by convention), combined with a 4K TV with HDR, using a 4K disk with HDR, Mastered in 4K. That last one is "REAL" important. It will knock your socks off on a 65 inch or larger display. The PQ quality is in another planet as compared with 2K Blue Ray. Whether you want to invest in this equipment or not is your decision, but the deck alone will not do it.

Cheers
Alright so maybe I wasn't exactly clear in the wording of my question but I wasn't comparing a UHD blu ray player to a HD Blu ray player.

I was comparing UHD players between themselves.

For example the Samsung k8500 vs The Oppo 203 vs the Philips vs the Panansonic dmp ub900 etc
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post #606 of 971 Old 03-01-2017, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by the7mcs View Post
Alright so maybe I wasn't exactly clear in the wording of my question but I wasn't comparing a UHD blu ray player to a HD Blu ray player.

I was comparing UHD players between themselves.

For example the Samsung k8500 vs The Oppo 203 vs the Philips vs the Panansonic dmp ub900 etc
That is a personal preference issue. I don't think a regular person using any different brand of UHD deck, will be able to tell the difference between brands if the TV and the disk is the same. I know somebody is going to come out and say there is a difference between brand A and brand B, but, I personally, do not think so. It is like comparing current Blue Ray Decks. Some people say that OPPO is so much better than say Samsung or Sony. I do not see any difference in PQ. However the OPPO is so much more versatile than say the Samsung, and that may or may not be worth the difference in price.

Cheers
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post #607 of 971 Old 03-01-2017, 09:51 PM
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I wonder if a blind study experiment was done where one all the UHD players were playing the same content on the same TV if people can accurately pick out which UHD player is playing what.
BINGO!

I've asked a few times for someone to point out a specific timestamp in a movie for me to see some sort of imperfection on the K8500 that would be eliminated with a 203 so I can begin to understand what the benefit would be.

I recall very clearly having ZERO compelling reason to use anything other than a PS3 for Blu-ray, the Oppo always seemed to have programming glitches (praise be to the updates ) and I was never convinced of a higher PQ by using it.

I've got no doubt these different players may output a slightly different image but I'm not certain they could be 100% accurately identified in a double blind test.

I'd love someone WITHOUT owners bias to compare a K8500, Oppo 203, Panny 900 and the upcoming Panny 400, Sony 800 and heck even a XBOX One and see clearly state the PQ difference separate from preference or bias.

My biggest issue is a lot of owners of esoteric equipment, especially Oppo and Emotiva, will gloss over issues and talk up perceived benefits to justify the price they paid. I've got no problems with a 5% quality increase for a 100% cost increase but at least lets talk plainly about it.

IF the 203 produces the most 'reference' image possible (as claimed by many) then lets start with which settings on all the other players will produce an image most similar to the 203, then begin to describe the shortcomings. Done this way, it will only benefit all other 'inferior' players.
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post #608 of 971 Old 03-02-2017, 02:52 AM
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It's pretty well known that the Sammy has an issue with Red, I believe it was traced to a Chroma Bug. Some swear it also has undefeatable NR, but with the small amount of testing software available, I didn't go digging. I have 203 and Sammy, I like the 203 much better, but the Sammy at $200( seen it mentioned less) isn't a bad deal unless you have a really critical eye.... unfortunately, I got it pretty early on, so it was 400. I enjoyed it well enough(not the Remote- bah), and it'll get utilized when I get a 4k display upstairs.
There will be a bunch of cheap players before ya know it.

Why waste $ on more cheap stuff, it's like challenging a dragon with a pocket knife.
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post #609 of 971 Old 03-02-2017, 05:57 AM
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My interest in the Oppo has little to do with the supposed superior quality of 1080p or UHD Blu-ray picture quality compared to other players. They should all spit out the same 1's and 0's for 4k by default, and not alter the signal unless one specifically tells it to by altering some settings.

I am willing to pay a little more for an Oppo for many other reasons:

1) Everyone says that it has excellent build quality
2) It is to my eyes, clearly the most attractive looking player on the market, which will look very nice under my stand. That is worth something.
3) Since I will be using it to watch a lot of movies with the lights down, I truly value that the remote is full-featured and backlit, and automatically lights up when it is picked up. That is easily worth $50 more to me and other brands have crappy remotes (Samsung) or ones that do not light up (Sony), and the one that does light up (Panasonic) you have to push a button.
4) Since I can get excellent PQ from something cheaper, I value which player works best as a media player/networker, so I can consolidate equipment and cords, and people seem to say that the Oppo is best in this regard. I am willing to give it a try, to see if I can get rid of some of my older 1080p media players.
5) Perhaps the Oppos cost a lot more percentage wise, but not in real dollars, and I picked mine up at a significant discount to MSRP anyway, but the extra second year of warranty is also worth something over the lower-priced offerings.
6) I am told that they hold their value quite well, and there are not usually any major sales or price drops, except small discounts for open box refurbs, etc.
7) Paying more for a premium brand can get you much faster load times compared to say, a cheapo Philips which is slow.
8) There can be a visible difference in PQ when upscaling DVDs or BD's to UHD, and it would seem illogical that all players, including the cheap ones, would be completely equal in this regard.
9) I may at some point find use for the analog outs.
10) I may at some point find the unique HDMI in feature useful
11) If they continue to improve it, I may in the future find the HDR to SDR metadata strip feature useful, preserving a wider color gamut.
12) Having a frontal display is another small bonus that many cheaper brands do not offer.

I hope when the Oppo arrives in a few days it meets with my elevated expectations, and I am not disappointed. No worries, I have 60 days to try it, and could easily sell it for what I paid for it if need be, anyhow.
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post #610 of 971 Old 03-02-2017, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the7mcs View Post
Okay so I thought to ask this question because I see things like I bought this UHD player and the PQ is better than that UHD player type thing.

So I started to think to myself... is it the UHD player that has an effect on PQ or is it the TV itself?
I mean all the UHD player is doing is sending codes to the TV right?

Maybe someone that has more knowledge on this subject can shed some light.

I mean I understand that different UHD players offer different features like apps, maybe more features on the audio side of things etc, but when it comes to strictly PQ how does one differ from the other.

I wonder if a blind study experiment was done where one all the UHD players were playing the same content on the same TV if people can accurately pick out which UHD player is playing what.
I owned the Panasonic UB900 and recently purchased the Oppo 203. I had some vacation days and spent most of them at home pouring through every setting and stood up to the screen and paused frame by frame. I tried all my familiar demo discs, used TV upscaling, player upscaling, UHD, standard Blu-ray, 4:4:4 12-bit, direct etc…I couldn’t find an iota of difference in PQ.

I ultimately went with the Oppo due to Dolby Vision but was completely happy with both. Appreciated the sleek low profile of the Panny, and the more robust sturdy look of the Oppo.

I have a 65” Sony Z9D TV, so maybe since the TV is so good it’s hard to tell a difference, and maybe other TV’s, whether they are high end or low end or in between, or 2015 models…lots of factors so maybe some handle each player differently.

In general, chicken soup ingredients will make chicken soup. In a blind test, I doubt I would be able to tell a difference even from the Samsung.
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post #611 of 971 Old 03-02-2017, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLED4UNME View Post
My interest in the Oppo has little to do with the supposed superior quality of 1080p or UHD Blu-ray picture quality compared to other players. They should all spit out the same 1's and 0's for 4k by default, and not alter the signal unless one specifically tells it to by altering some settings.

I am willing to pay a little more for an Oppo for many other reasons:

1) Everyone says that it has excellent build quality
2) It is to my eyes, clearly the most attractive looking player on the market, which will look very nice under my stand. That is worth something.
3) Since I will be using it to watch a lot of movies with the lights down, I truly value that the remote is full-featured and backlit, and automatically lights up when it is picked up. That is easily worth $50 more to me and other brands have crappy remotes (Samsung) or ones that do not light up (Sony), and the one that does light up (Panasonic) you have to push a button.
4) Since I can get excellent PQ from something cheaper, I value which player works best as a media player/networker, so I can consolidate equipment and cords, and people seem to say that the Oppo is best in this regard. I am willing to give it a try, to see if I can get rid of some of my older 1080p media players.
5) Perhaps the Oppos cost a lot more percentage wise, but not in real dollars, and I picked mine up at a significant discount to MSRP anyway, but the extra second year of warranty is also worth something over the lower-priced offerings.
6) I am told that they hold their value quite well, and there are not usually any major sales or price drops, except small discounts for open box refurbs, etc.
7) Paying more for a premium brand can get you much faster load times compared to say, a cheapo Philips which is slow.
8) There can be a visible difference in PQ when upscaling DVDs or BD's to UHD, and it would seem illogical that all players, including the cheap ones, would be completely equal in this regard.
9) I may at some point find use for the analog outs.
10) I may at some point find the unique HDMI in feature useful
11) If they continue to improve it, I may in the future find the HDR to SDR metadata strip feature useful, preserving a wider color gamut.
12) Having a frontal display is another small bonus that many cheaper brands do not offer.

I hope when the Oppo arrives in a few days it meets with my elevated expectations, and I am not disappointed. No worries, I have 60 days to try it, and could easily sell it for what I paid for it if need be, anyhow.
From that list, 8 is the only thing that interests me. Things like build quality, remote and front display don't affect me at all. My equipment sits on a shelf in a different room and I use a Harmony Elite. Also, I didn't think the 203 did anything other than play discs?

Do you have a UHD player now? Regardless, it will be good to hear your thoughts when you get it.
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post #612 of 971 Old 03-02-2017, 10:53 AM
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From that list, 8 is the only thing that interests me. Things like build quality, remote and front display don't affect me at all. My equipment sits on a shelf in a different room and I use a Harmony Elite. Also, I didn't think the 203 did anything other than play discs?
Build quality is more than just looking pretty sitting on a shelf.

If you had no idea that the 203 does anything other than play discs, then you haven't been paying attention . It also plays disc types, such as SACD's, that the other UHD players won't play.
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post #613 of 971 Old 03-02-2017, 10:54 AM
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Build quality is more than just looking pretty sitting on a shelf.

If you had no idea that the 203 does anything other than play discs, then you haven't been paying attention . It also plays disc types, such as SACD's, that the other UHD players won't play.
SACD is a disc.
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post #614 of 971 Old 03-02-2017, 10:56 AM
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SACD is a disc.
Oh crap, I had no idea. Two different things - 1) it will do things other than play discs, but obviously doesn't have apps for streaming services like Netflix 2) it will play disc types the other players can't.
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post #615 of 971 Old 03-02-2017, 11:02 AM
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Panasonic DMP-UB900 versus Oppo UDP-203 | UHD Blu-ray players (All) | Comparisons...

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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
Oh crap, I had no idea. Two different things - 1) it will do things other than play discs, but obviously doesn't have apps for streaming services like Netflix 2) it will play disc types the other players can't.
I was simply saying I didn't know the 203 was a network player to accomplish #4 above.

I'm looking at this from a movie perspective only. More specifically, UHD playback is all I care about.

I'm old enough to remember when companies used weights inside their components to signify 'build quality'.

Sure, quality of components and such, but it only matters if it leads to better PQ, AQ or reliability. You'll lose me if you start talking about steel casing; I'm playing movies with it, not throwing it down the stairs...
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post #616 of 971 Old 03-02-2017, 07:29 PM
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Not sure the best place to ask this but what is the best device in the chain to upscale?

My Sony S6500 will 4K upscale, my K8500 will 4K upscale, my Denon X6300 will 4K upscale, My JVC RS400 will 4K upscale...what's the best device in the chain to upscale with and why?

For now, I've been playing regular discs with the Sony S6500 because I have that output going through a Darbee, the receiver sends along whatever it gets unprocessed and the projector will upscale the signal, that way I get the Darbee improvements as it can't process 4K.

My K8500 has only been used for UHD discs and the occasional Amazon Prime 4K.

Thoughts?
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post #617 of 971 Old 03-02-2017, 09:21 PM
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SACD is a disc.
It also has a freakingly awesome DAC that supports DSD (ripped SACD) also plays Flac and its a 32 bit DAC.

It supports both DLNA and SMB.

IT'S SUPER FAST, faster than other players.

You can play .Mkv and .m2ts through DLNA or SMB and even add subtitles.

It supports Atmos from those .mkv files (TrueHD Audio).

You can even get a .srt file (subs) and put it in a flash drive and load it to your Bluray Disc. In case you're watching a weird foreign bluray.

It does all this through USB also. It connects to your NAS if you have one.

It's an Universal player so it plays all kinds of Discs.

It has a strip metadata function.

You can turn on or off HDR.

You can output at your preferred resolution, color depth and color space.

The remote controller has a back light.

And more!






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post #618 of 971 Old 03-02-2017, 11:24 PM
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It's pretty well known that the Sammy has an issue with Red, I believe it was traced to a Chroma Bug. Some swear it also has undefeatable NR, but with the small amount of testing software available, I didn't go digging. I have 203 and Sammy, I like the 203 much better, but the Sammy at $200( seen it mentioned less) isn't a bad deal unless you have a really critical eye.... unfortunately, I got it pretty early on, so it was 400. I enjoyed it well enough(not the Remote- bah), and it'll get utilized when I get a 4k display upstairs.
There will be a bunch of cheap players before ya know it.
The decoding process of a video stream is not a simple thing and can be different for sure. For example depending on the decoder chips power it can be programmed to use different (meaning simpler and less performance demanding) decoding functions as well as post-processing filters (these filters are inside the decoder and part of the decoding process). This will effect quality for sure and can be seen on screen, but mainly on projectors cause the differences are very subtle. On a regular TV, you won't see any difference unless the decoder has a plainright bug in the process or the manufacturer deliberately adds additional filters like Samsung with their NR infested players to achieve a 'brand look'.
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post #619 of 971 Old 03-03-2017, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Not sure the best place to ask this but what is the best device in the chain to upscale?

My Sony S6500 will 4K upscale, my K8500 will 4K upscale, my Denon X6300 will 4K upscale, My JVC RS400 will 4K upscale...what's the best device in the chain to upscale with and why?

For now, I've been playing regular discs with the Sony S6500 because I have that output going through a Darbee, the receiver sends along whatever it gets unprocessed and the projector will upscale the signal, that way I get the Darbee improvements as it can't process 4K.

My K8500 has only been used for UHD discs and the occasional Amazon Prime 4K.

Thoughts?

All may have good decoder chips in them. I would try them one at a time on the same disc. You may look back at particular threads and try a movie that is known to be a torture test. I have your same projector and like the upscaling of my Oppo. YMMV.
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post #620 of 971 Old 03-03-2017, 04:02 AM
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All may have good decoder chips in them. I would try them one at a time on the same disc. You may look back at particular threads and try a movie that is known to be a torture test. I have your same projector and like the upscaling of my Oppo. YMMV.
I'll have to try that. I know I'll see something if it's pointed out, but with the lag in picture sync, it makes it difficult to A/B compare. It'd be nice to try different components and settings and actually see a discernible PQ difference.

I've got a lot of discs here, so I'm sure I've got something to highlight the flaws.
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post #621 of 971 Old 03-03-2017, 06:58 AM
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One of the things I notice from some scalers is image noise, so what I do is find a close up of a face and that will usually show the noise - like dancing dots around a nose in profile for example. Once you've seen it, you can then keep playing back that scene using the different scalers one at a time to see which one does the best job.

There may be other artefacts, but for me that's one that usually stands out. Others may look softer or sharper, but as you can't do a side by side, you could try a camera on a tripod in close up and try to capture the paused image - keep the image paused and just change the scaler in the menus of each, one at a time and then you can compare the photos for exactly the same frame - just make sure you write down which photo time stamp is using what scaler, so you don't forget.

Of course if you have to go to those lengths, then maybe the differences aren't that great. Sometimes just knowing you're not using the best scaler is enough to spoil your viewing

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post #622 of 971 Old 03-03-2017, 03:22 PM
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BINGO!

I've asked a few times for someone to point out a specific timestamp in a movie for me to see some sort of imperfection on the K8500 that would be eliminated with a 203 so I can begin to understand what the benefit would be.

I recall very clearly having ZERO compelling reason to use anything other than a PS3 for Blu-ray, the Oppo always seemed to have programming glitches (praise be to the updates ) and I was never convinced of a higher PQ by using it.

I've got no doubt these different players may output a slightly different image but I'm not certain they could be 100% accurately identified in a double blind test.

I'd love someone WITHOUT owners bias to compare a K8500, Oppo 203, Panny 900 and the upcoming Panny 400, Sony 800 and heck even a XBOX One and see clearly state the PQ difference separate from preference or bias.

My biggest issue is a lot of owners of esoteric equipment, especially Oppo and Emotiva, will gloss over issues and talk up perceived benefits to justify the price they paid. I've got no problems with a 5% quality increase for a 100% cost increase but at least lets talk plainly about it.

IF the 203 produces the most 'reference' image possible (as claimed by many) then lets start with which settings on all the other players will produce an image most similar to the 203, then begin to describe the shortcomings. Done this way, it will only benefit all other 'inferior' players.
there are many items where you pay 100-500 % price premium for minimum increase in quality, some times you pay from brand name period, to think some how you can tweak setting of lower end player to get high end player quality does not make sense, it never works that way in electronics, majority of time premium has better quality or specs, if you can see the difference does not mean the higher end product is just hype.
not all high end merchandise sold are trouble free also.
Oppo has made a reputation and for their followers it make every sense to a bit higher price, i paid $500 for oppo bdp-93 BD player when Bd players were selling for $100. i never quantified the percentage quality delta vs price compared to other BD players, oppo 203 is bargain as other lower end players still expensive. i own Panasonic 900 also , it is good player but not worth $700 as compared to $550 Oppo. one thing for sure is philips or Samsung is not same as Oppo or Panasonic but they do a decent job with UHD discs, if one has non HDR UHD why spend so much money on high end players when TV is not capable of showing PQ details. if one don't appreciate or have concern about that extra good PQ or have average display then Philips or samsung player is just fine.

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post #623 of 971 Old 03-04-2017, 08:09 AM
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Panasonic DMP-UB900 versus Oppo UDP-203 | UHD Blu-ray players (All) | Comparisons...

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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Sometimes just knowing you're not using the best scaler is enough to spoil your viewing
Precisely.

I want to make sure my equipment is producing the best possible PQ and AQ.

Perhaps I'll have to suck it up and buy a 203 just to see what the hubbub is all about. I have zero owners bias and I only really care about watching movies on disc and reliability is high on my list...so look out Oppo.
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post #624 of 971 Old 03-05-2017, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Precisely.

I want to make sure my equipment is producing the best possible PQ and AQ.

Perhaps I'll have to suck it up and buy a 203 just to see what the hubbub is all about. I have zero owners bias and I only really care about watching movies on disc and reliability is high on my list...so look out Oppo.
I am curious about the results, Dreamliner.

Also on a ps3, with a sony hw65 projector, klipsch rp280 and family, denon 2200.
My system is limited to 1080p by the (amazing) projector, so wondering if worth the upgrade to a better bluray player in what concerns Picture OR audio quality.

On the same boat, dont care if its steel or has lights, just looking for quality of the viewing and listening experience.

Cheers
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post #625 of 971 Old 03-07-2017, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Sure, quality of components and such, but it only matters if it leads to better PQ, AQ or reliability. You'll lose me if you start talking about steel casing; I'm playing movies with it, not throwing it down the stairs...
But, SHOULD I be in a situation where I have my player tossed down the stairs, it's good to know the Oppo has me covered. It's all in those little details.

This is a good measure of reliability I do believe.
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post #626 of 971 Old 03-07-2017, 10:08 AM
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I took the Pepsi Challenge putting the Panny up against the Oppo and though I do think the UB900 does perform well I just couldn't get past the cheap build quality and interface.
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post #627 of 971 Old 03-07-2017, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveCaron View Post
I took the Pepsi Challenge putting the Panny up against the Oppo and though I do think the UB900 does perform well I just couldn't get past the cheap build quality and interface.
I'd rather have a player that plays discs not locks up regularly. Makes the 203 an expensive paper weight imo. I expect a bluray player to actually play blurays. I shouldnt have to boil a disc to get it to play .

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post #628 of 971 Old 03-07-2017, 01:11 PM
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I've had zero problems with my UDP-203. Not everyone is having issues with the player. You were just lucky I guess.
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post #629 of 971 Old 03-07-2017, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post
I'd rather have a player that plays discs not locks up regularly. Makes the 203 an expensive paper weight imo. I expect a bluray player to actually play blurays. I shouldnt have to boil a disc to get it to play .

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No doubt there are some bugs to be worked out of the 203 but my concerns with the Panny were longevity. In the past I owned 2 really good Panasonic's DVD players and a CD players but the 2 to 2 1/2 year lifespan on those models left me a bit underwhelmed and the cheap build on this one didn't provide any vote of confidence.
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post #630 of 971 Old 03-07-2017, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCaron View Post
No doubt there are some bugs to be worked out of the 203 but my concerns with the Panny were longevity. In the past I owned 2 really good Panasonic's DVD players and a CD players but the 2 to 2 1/2 year lifespan on those models left me a bit underwhelmed and the cheap build on this one didn't provide any vote of confidence.
No doubt the Oppo build is better but there is no question in my mind which is more reliable right now. I paid $599 for my Panny so from a price standpoint pretty much a wash. I understand your preference I just value performance and reliability over aesthetics.

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Last edited by chunon; 03-07-2017 at 02:25 PM.
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