Official OPPO UDP-205 UHD Blu-ray Player Owner's Thread - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 6849 Old 04-25-2017, 01:00 PM
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^ Nope. Still plenty of people in Anticipation stage.

It will die out of its own accord as more people realize the action has moved to the Owner's Thread.
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post #122 of 6849 Old 04-25-2017, 01:14 PM
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Is it time for the Mods to close the anticipation thread?
That's a thought. Or merge the two threads as there is some good information in the "anticipation" thread.

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post #123 of 6849 Old 04-25-2017, 01:41 PM
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Connecting the OPPO 205 Directly to a Power Amp

For those looking to try this, I have some specs for you, hot off the press:

The output impedance of the RCA Analog outs of the 205 (both multi-channel and dedicated stereo) is 100 Ω.

The output impedance of the dedicated stereo XLR Analog outs of the 205 is 50 Ω.

The rule of thumb is that the amp input you are going to connect to should have a minimum input impedance 10 to 15 times the output impedance of the OPPO. But be aware that the input impedance of some power amps can vary according to frequency. Quite a bit. So it is best to be conservative here

For those curious, the output impedance of the RCA Analog outs of the 203 is 200 Ω.

------------------------------------

I'm still working on getting some recommendations on target Volume level for the 205, above which you can be pretty much guaranteed that dynamic range will be preserved and the noise floor suitably suppressed. But generally speaking, you want to set up so that you are using the higher end of the Volume range in the OPPO. If the gain of your amp is too much to achieve a comfortable listening level at higher Volume settings in the OPPO then you should consider putting high quality attenuators in the Analog path between the OPPO and the amp.

Again, I want to emphasize that the Analog outs of the OPPO are designed to be connected to the inputs of a pre-amp. OPPO will not be selling the 205 (much less the 203) as a substitute for a pre-amp. But if you want to try a configuration where the player is directly connected to a power amp -- as many have already done with the OPPO 105 and 105D players -- these are the considerations to bear in mind.

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post #124 of 6849 Old 04-25-2017, 02:18 PM
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Regarding Oppo not adding a Darbee to the 203 and 205 (ever).
It will play DVD and 'normal' Blu-rays, with a Darbee unit build in; these formats (still) would benefit from this processing?
So that would have been an argument for it.....


Or is the processing of the new video chip that good with both formats that Darbee wouldn't add additional benefit?
Something for someone to verify who has a 10xD and a 20x?
I would be interested to hear about this.
I'm also curious to know what Darbee is. So does the 203 & 205 have the same tech as the 105d?
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post #125 of 6849 Old 04-25-2017, 02:25 PM
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I'm also curious to know what Darbee is. So does the 203 & 205 have the same tech as the 105d?
Darbee is a video post-processing technology included in the OPPO 105D. It is NOT included in the 203 or 205 largely because there is no 4K version of Darbee yet.
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post #126 of 6849 Old 04-25-2017, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
Connecting the OPPO 205 Directly to a Power Amp

For those looking to try this, I have some specs for you, hot off the press:
Bob, this is great information and much appreciated. I'm creating a folder on my PC just for all the awesome tips you contribute. Great stuff!
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post #127 of 6849 Old 04-25-2017, 02:53 PM
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Darbee is a video post-processing technology included in the OPPO 105D. It is NOT included in the 203 or 205 largely because there is no 4K version of Darbee yet.
--Bob
Post processing tech does what exactly? thanks
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post #128 of 6849 Old 04-25-2017, 03:11 PM
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Post processing tech does what exactly? thanks
Not to be rude but try Google. Threads like this get off topic real quick due to posts like these.

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post #129 of 6849 Old 04-25-2017, 06:49 PM
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I'm not sure about that yet. I don't have enough info. I'm also not sure whether the 205 will be more forgiving in terms of things like impedance requirement if you connect it directly to a power amp.

This is all stuff we'll have to learn as brave souls give it a try.

Just to be clear here. The Analog outs of the 205 are designed to be connected to the inputs of a pre-amp. OPPO is not suggesting folks should use it directly connected to a power amp. But just as with the 105 and 105D I suspect some will.
--Bob
But why not? Oppo, as a voltage source has an output impedance of 100 ohms to so. Both preamp inputs and amplifier inputs have high impedances of 10K or more (with parallel capacitive to boot). The Oppo's output section will see them the same, so why not connect it directly to a PA inputs?

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post #130 of 6849 Old 04-25-2017, 07:51 PM
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But why not? Oppo, as a voltage source has an output impedance of 100 ohms to so. Both preamp inputs and amplifier inputs have high impedances of 10K or more (with parallel capacitive to boot). The Oppo's output section will see them the same, so why not connect it directly to a PA inputs?
For the same reasons as are evident in the OPPO 105 Sound Quality thread where folks have gotten themselves into trouble thinking this was "easy".

Hooking through a pre-amp *IS* "easy". Hooking direct to a power amp raises issues of whether the amp is well matched to the output of the OPPO. That's a support headache. So OPPO doesn't recommend people go that path, and doesn't sell the player as a substitute for a pre-amp, despite the fact that some people will do just that, and quite successfully.
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post #131 of 6849 Old 04-25-2017, 09:15 PM
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For the same reasons as are evident in the OPPO 105 Sound Quality thread where folks have gotten themselves into trouble thinking this was "easy".

Hooking through a pre-amp *IS* "easy". Hooking direct to a power amp raises issues of whether the amp is well matched to the output of the OPPO. That's a support headache. So OPPO doesn't recommend people go that path, and doesn't sell the player as a substitute for a pre-amp, despite the fact that some people will do just that, and quite successfully.
--Bob
Is it no longer the case that controlling volume in the digital domain can, at least in theory, reduce dynamic range?

This was discussed to death in the 105 thread, and here is what Oppo said:

"The BDP-105 uses the ES9018 DAC chip’s digital volume control. The ES9018 DAC has a 135dB dynamic range. The BDP-105 has a 110dB dynamic range. There is a 25dB difference before the noise floor of the player’s analog circuit starts to affect digital dynamic range. For BDP-105 each step of the volume control scale is 0.5dB, so it is best to have the volume control somewhere between 50 and 100.
Setting the volume below 50 does not mean that it will sound poor. It just means that the full potential of the hardware is not utilized.

Jason Liao
OPPO Digital, Inc."

Also, if Oppo doesn't recommend or formally support directly connecting the analog outputs of a 205 to a power amp, what do they recommend connecting to instead? Obviously not a digital pre/pro, which defeats the purpose of the high-end analog stage in the 205.

I use a NuForce, but they aren't manufactured anymore (and I have three to have backups in case one fails). So what should people use?

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post #132 of 6849 Old 04-25-2017, 11:21 PM
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Analog input on an preamplifier. It seems people have impression that all preamplifiers digitize the audio but that's only true if you use the onboard processing of the preamp or connect to it digitally.

A lot of receivers have analog bypass or direct mode for analog connections (aka rca or balanced).

There are 2 channel preamps and integrated amps that do pure analog and some have home theatre bypass modes.

If you're not planning on using the analog outs on the 205 then buy the 203 unless you want the anti-jitter of the audio hdmi out.
Operon and greyflag like this.
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post #133 of 6849 Old 04-25-2017, 11:26 PM
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I'm also curious to know what Darbee is. So does the 203 & 205 have the same tech as the 105d?
My question was not about what Darbee is / does.
I know / aready read a lot about that.
I would like to know if the video processing in the 20x is so different / better than a 10xD that adding Darbee does not make sense for DVD 576i and Blu-ray 1080P upscaling in the 20x.


In my current situation my Denon 3910 scales DVD 576i up to 1080i and than my LG OLED scales that to 4K.
I don't know if a 20x does the scaling also in steps, or if it does in in one step from 576i to 4K.
Don't know if this question is seen as OT, it is about what / how a 20x does things...?

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post #134 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 12:25 AM
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Is it time for the Mods to close the anticipation thread?
Yep
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post #135 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 05:05 AM
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Question
How can I use the "audio" benefits the 205 offers over the 203 more? Do I have to load high res files on a USB? I do not have any legacy equipment. I am
Still debating between the two players.
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post #136 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 05:12 AM
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Question
How can I use the "audio" benefits the 205 offers over the 203 more? Do I have to load high res files on a USB? I do not have any legacy equipment. I am
Still debating between the two players.
if like the 105 and 95 before then no 1 you need is something that will do analog justice... which is typically not something will find in AVRs and will find in some but not all av processors, but typically in pure analog 2ch gear.

its for the analog performance people buy these things.

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post #137 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 05:15 AM
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if like the 105 and 95 before then no 1 you need is something that will do analog justice... which is typically not something will find in AVRs and will find in some but not all av processors, but typically in pure analog 2ch gear.

its for the analog performance people buy these things.

I am new to the high res audio stuff. Tell me more. Is there zero benefit to the 205 if I don't use analog? What type of analog sources are you talking about?
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post #138 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 05:20 AM
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I am new to the high res audio stuff. Tell me more. Is there zero benefit to the 205 if I don't use analog? What type of analog sources are you talking about?
its not analog sources. its what you plug the 205 into. and hook upto via analog

there is some suggested of benefit with the jitter reduction over hdmi. this sits in the unknown territory for me, something would have to be proven to be crowing about over analog though be no question the 205 will bring benefit... as long as hook upto something that utilises it rather than throttles

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post #139 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 06:07 AM
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I am new to the high res audio stuff. Tell me more. Is there zero benefit to the 205 if I don't use analog? What type of analog sources are you talking about?
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...there is some suggested of benefit with the jitter reduction over hdmi. this sits in the unknown territory for me, something would have to be proven to be crowing about over analog though be no question the 205 will bring benefit
Contrary to popular belief the quality of a digital stream can indeed influence the quality of the resultant analogue audio that is outputted. That said, unless you have a very good audio system you probably won't be able to tell much of a difference if at all.

Digital is not in fact merely involving 1's and 0's. There is more involved and it is more complex than that. Where some some have likened digital transmission as being akin to shining a torch light into a pipe where the light either reaches the end of the pipe (= '1') or it does not (= '0') but there are no other possibilities. When in fact, actually there is... Such as for example, if your torch is running out of batteries and/or the power fluctuates or reduces then the light may intermittently fail, fluctuate, and/or vary in strength.

Similarly, digital is not only to do with bits. The timing and stability of digital transmission is important. One illustration of this is HDMI cables, where there are not solely two outcomes, where if there were then cables would work either all of the time or none of the time, but this is not the case. It is very common for HDMI connectivity to have intermittent signal drops and syncing issues, with resultant HDMI handshake issues and imperfect bit transmission, which subsequently may affect the resultant video and/or audio performance if the digital transmission is afflicted with such issues.

That said, it's not really about producing 'superior' audio or video performance, but more about ensuring that you do not have 'diminished' audio or video performance. So, the target objective with digital transmission is ensuring that all those 1s and 0s are transmitted with perfect timing, stability, and reliability, at all times without exception.

Timing jitter results when the rising and falling edges of digital bits do not always arrive at the precise time they should. On an oscilloscope, it appears that the eye gets fuzzy in the horizontal direction as a result of some bits shifting left, some shifting right and overlapping together (like we said, digital transmission can in fact be very analog in its nature).

With digital transmission timing information is extremely important, and the timing component in virtually any two-part playback involving DAC is analog in nature; and this is irrespective of whether the DAC is carried out within the source device, such as the OPPO Blu-Ray Player or the AV processor. It's technically described as a phase lock loop, where any even small variances or fluctuations create what is known as jitter. Clock jitter can be heard, and it can be measured. Consequently, timing and stability of digital transmissions CAN and WILL affect the resultant audio and video performance. How much? This depends upon a number of factors. However, as stated unless you have a very good audio system you probably won't be able to tell much of a difference if at all.

That said, with superior timing and stability comes better reliability too... Hands up anyone who to date has yet to ever experience any issue with respect to HDMI connectivity, no handshake issues nor signal drops… ever? That's what we thought

Where as it happens we are just finishing up with respect to a large-scale evaluation and testing exercise that is precisely relating to digital transmission... Namely 50ft+/15m+ HDMI cables all of which claim the same 18Gbps performance but where a very great many do not and where there is a considerable variance in digital transmission performance even between different cables of the very same make and model of cable... So is digital exclusively about 1s and 0s? Nope.
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post #140 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 06:17 AM
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Will uhd bd sound the exact same on the 203 vs 205? Playing high res files through USB sound the same on both?
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post #141 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 06:32 AM
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Will uhd bd sound the exact same on the 203 vs 205? Playing high res files through USB sound the same on both?
If we are to be absolutely factually accurate then we cannot state that the sound will be exactly the same. However, unless you have a really, really good audio system, most probably you won't be able to tell the difference. Plus whether or not the theoretical possible greater reliability due to the superior HDMI timing and hence stability translates into practice is yet to be determined, and if so to what extent is the actual difference (if any)

The primary reason for purchasing a 205 over the 203 is to make use of the superior analog functionality include DAC. So, if you are not going to make use of this it is probably recommended that you opt for the 203.

However, if you want the flagship model (for whatever reason) plus like the idea that this might possibly be a bit more stable with respect to HDMI connectivity and that there might possibly be a slight difference with respect to sound quality when used with ultra-high-end audio systems, then you might want to consider the 205
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post #142 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 06:56 AM
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I'm more or less in the same boat.
Want to upgrade to the next gen. multi player with 4K and with good audio.
My Denon 3910 has surved me very well in this the last decade. It has Denon-link, I expect the same effect / improvement of the specific audio HDMI jitter reduction of the 205. Whats new...
I asume the 205 might be my last disk player.
I think the Denon-link in essence is the same type connection as i-Link (Fire wire IEEE-1394) used by older Pioneer Elite and some Marantz receivers and players for transmitting audio including multi-channel DVD-A and SACD.

I was always a fan of i-Link as it and the Denon-link were the only means of digitally transmitting multi-channel uncompressed audio until HDMI came along. Ironically by the time HDMI became mainstream DVD-audio was about dead.

I honestly don’t know if i-Link completely eliminates digital jitter but, obviously, it did have more capacity than a S/PDIF digital coax connection.

Given the above referenced HDMI potential jitter issues, the fact that multi-channel DVD-A, and SACD can’t bet transmitted over coax, and i-Link and Denon-link no longer exist, my choice is to use 5.1 RCA analog out for High-Rez multi-channel, and XLR out for CD and High-Rez 2 channel from my 105D to my Classé SSP-800 set to bypass.

Perhaps Oppo’s new anti-jitter circuitry will now make HDMI the preferred/best method for transmitting audio.

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post #143 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 07:00 AM
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Will uhd bd sound the exact same on the 203 vs 205? Playing high res files through USB sound the same on both?
from my understanding...hooked up over hdmi for uhd bd hdaudio it SHOULD be exactly the same. the only benefit I have read for hdmi is for dsd and pcm music audio. so hdaudio for uhd bd audio should be no different. i have not seen anything from oppo even to suggest otherwise.

the benefit the 205 brings is the quality of the analog stage, there is a headphone amp, and there is the jitter reduction ( over hdmi for pcm and dsd music and am still to read real world benefit of this)

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post #144 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 07:34 AM
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from my understanding...hooked up over hdmi for uhd bd hdaudio it SHOULD be exactly the same. the only benefit I have read for hdmi is for dsd and pcm music audio. so hdaudio for uhd bd audio should be no different. i have not seen anything from oppo even to suggest otherwise.

the benefit the 205 brings is the quality of the analog stage, there is a headphone amp, and there is the jitter reduction ( over hdmi for pcm and dsd music and am still to read real world benefit of this)
I have a denon 7200wa for my receiver. Just seeing if there are any advantages of going 205 vs 203.
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post #145 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 07:46 AM
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I have a denon 7200wa for my receiver. Just seeing if there are any advantages of going 205 vs 203.
If you have no intention of using the analog features of the 205 then in your instance, NO
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post #146 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 08:17 AM
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Connecting the 205 Directly to a Power Amp -- Part 2

In my post above I talked about "impedance" considerations in connecting the Analog outs of the OPPO UDP-205 directly to a Power Amp -- no pre-amp in between. Now I want to talk about Volume.

A key difference in connecting directly to a Power Amp is that the Amp is not likely to offer Volume control -- or call it "Gain" control. That means you will be relying on the Analog output Volume control provided by the 205 itself.

Power Amps have different "Gain" characteristics, and if the Gain of the Amp is too large (and your speakers too "efficient") you will need to use a very low Volume setting in the OPPO to achieve a comfortable listening level. That raises the question whether a low Volume setting in the OPPO affects the audio quality. And if so, how low is TOO low?

For folks new to this, an important concept here is that the Volume control in a device like the OPPO does not "amplify" the output. The 205 is designed to put out a "full scale" signal. That is, the max Volume setting of the 205 (a Volume of 100 -- or the Output "FIXED" setting, which does the same thing) puts out the Analog audio signal the player is DESIGNED to put out. It's very BEST signal.

Instead, lowering Volume below 100 "attenuates" the full scale output -- lowering the output volume below that of the "best" signal. But how does that affect audio quality? Does it even make a noticeable difference? There are two considerations: Dynamic Range and Noise Floor.

The first takeaway here should be that Dynamic Range is not a problem in the 205. Here's how we get to that result.

The Analog output Volume control in the 205 is implemented at very high quality -- in the 32-bit DACs of the player. That is the Dynamic Range of the Volume control itself is 32-bit. But the max dynamic range of the content you can PLAY in the OPPO is 24-bit. That gives us 8 bits extra.

Each bit of precision is equivalent to 6dB. So that says you could lower Volume by -48dB below full scale and have ZERO effect on the Dynamic Range of the Analog output stage for the content this player can play.

But wait! There's more!

The Noise Floor of the 205 is -120dB below full scale. That is to say any portion of the content which is recorded -120dB, or lower, below full scale is going to be "in the noise".

The maximum potential Dynamic Range of a 24-bit digital audio stream is 144dB. So the lowest 24dB of that will be "masked" by the Noise Floor. What's left gives the maximum perceivable Dynamic Range of the Analog outs: 120dB.

Combining these two results says you could lower Volume a whopping -72dB and still have no effect on the perceived Dynamic Range (i.e., after amplification to a comfortable listening level through a high quality Amp).

----------------------------------------

So what's the problem? The PROBLEM is that -- and this is another key concept -- attenuating the output signal does NOT also lower the Noise Floor! So if you set volume -72dB down (a Volume setting of 28 in the OPPO), you will have lowered the signal you WANT to hear 72dB closer to the Noise Floor. Or to put it another way, you've raised the Noise Floor to -48dB!

When you put that Analog output signal through a high Gain Power Amp to get things back to a comfortable listening level that Noise Floor -- now only -48dB below the loudest portions of the content -- ALSO gets amplified. And may very well become noticeable, particularly in a quiet listening room.

So that raises the question of how high is too high for the Noise Floor? There's no pat answer for that. But as a straw man, let's suggest that for high quality listening you don't want the Noise Floor to be closer than -90dB below the loudest portions of the content.

As I said above, the Noise Floor of the 205 is -120dB below full scale. So that gives us 30dB of Volume control to play with!

In the 205, Volume is implemented as -1.0dB per step below Volume 100. So that says you should TARGET a setup where you can get a comfortable listening level without having to lower Volume in the 205 below Volume 70. Higher is better, but 70 is fine.

If you decide you prefer to be more or less conservative regarding this Noise Floor straw man, you can do the easy math to adjust that TARGET Volume to taste.

------------------------------------------

So what if the Gain in *YOUR* Power Amp is so high that Volume 70 in the OPPO wakes the neighbors and knocks plaster off the walls? Well that says that your Power Amp is not, by itself, a good "match" for the *DIRECT* output of the 205.

One solution, of course is to put a pre-amp between the OPPO and your Power Amp. The pre-amp provides Volume control and so you can leave the Analog output Volume of the OPPO at 100.

Another solution is to invest in some high quality "attenuators" which you will put, in-line, between the OPPO and the Power Amp, so that you can keep Volume in the OPPO at 70 or above (assuming our straw man example here) while achieving a comfortable listening level.

-------------------------------------------

Now does that meant the signal is going to turn to crap if you lower Volume below 70? Of course not. You may very well want to use lower Volumes when you are not doing "critical listening" for example -- perhaps late at night depending on the persnicketiness of the neighbors. In most such cases you will probably NOT notice a decrease in audio quality.

But if you TARGET a setup where you are commonly using, say, Volume 30 for critical listening then you are not using the hardware of the 205 to best advantage.

===================================

ETA: Things Change!

The Official 0922 firmware for the 205, released September 25, 2017 in the US, changed the way the Volume control works.

Rather than -1.0dB attenuation per step below Volume 100, as described above, it is now refined to -0.5dB attenuation per step.


See this post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-bl...l#post54896420

Thus to achieve -30dB attenuation (the straw man suggested in the math above), you would set Volume to 40, instead of the Volume 70 used in the math above.

That says that starting with this firmware, you can achieve the same level of safety margin regarding Noise Floor if you target a comfortable listening level of Volume 40 or higher -- instead of Volume 70 or higher as described above.

--Bob

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Last edited by Bob Pariseau; 10-03-2017 at 09:23 AM.
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post #147 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post
Darbee increases perceived contrast by adjusting luminance on a per-pixel basis.

We don't know if there will be a 4K Darbee product, or if OPPO will use it in a future player.

UHD has complicated the situation a great deal. Darbee is a subtle effect when used properly and I'm afraid it will be lost in the shuffle of the other new features: greater resolution, wider color space, and high dynamic range.

I would not wait.

-Bill
This is what Darbee told me after my response from Oppo where they said current Darbee 4K solutions are expensive.

4K/UHD is a multifaceted hurdle. Demo'ing 4K/UHD processing on non-HDCP video clips is already in hand. Our 4K DVP IP has been able to process 4K, 8K, 20K for almost two years now, but that is only part of the challenge.

Developing a full HDMI/HDCP/HDR pipeline is a big process. We are not ready yet and Darbee and OPPO will only consider releasing and integrating 4K DVP when it satisfies both technical and business requirements. They are right, the chips are very expensive, at this time. Optimising for practical silicon is part of the set of hurdles. Fortunately, there is plenty of time ahead of us.

How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #148 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 08:45 AM
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Thanx Much Bob Pariseau for all your great help in these threads. All very valuable info for posters like me....

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post #149 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 08:48 AM
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^ We here at "Bob Pariseau" thank you for your kind words.
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post #150 of 6849 Old 04-26-2017, 09:24 AM
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Will the Oppo 205 have USB audio connection available with asio drivers? So that you can use USB audio connection also for multi channel? This would make sense as it is such a strong multi channel capable machine.
Or/and use the hdmi input so that the computer will "see" the Oppo as a soundcard? This works (also in MCH) really well with a Rotel processor.
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