Official Panasonic DP-UB820/824 Owner's Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 105 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3121 of 5142 Old 02-06-2019, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by bkeeler10 View Post
No blu-ray player ever decodes Atmos. If it is set to decode, it will decode the TrueHD stream and discard the Atmos metadata. Atmos processing must be done in the AVR.
So would this then still send the TrueHD to all 7.1ch including the overhead that I’m hearing sound from?
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post #3122 of 5142 Old 02-06-2019, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MeganElisabeth View Post
So would this then still send the TrueHD to all 7.1ch including the overhead that I’m hearing sound from?
Atmos on discs is a TrueHD 7.1 Bitstream with extra data I like to call the “sprinkles”. Only an Atmos decoder (in the AVR) will see the sprinkles. To get an Atmos track played AS Atmos you MUST send it to the AVR as an HDMI Bitstream. As far as the player is concerned, the track looks just like a TrueHD 7.1 Bitstream. The player does not see the sprinkles. The player will describe the track as a TrueHD 7.1 track. But so long as HDMI Bitstream output is used (and no other audio processing is enabled in the player) the sprinkles are preserved, and the AVR will discover it is actually being sent an Atmos Bitstream.

If you tell the player instead to decode the Atmos track into HDMI LPCM Digital audio output or into Analog audio output, it will work just as if the track really was just TrueHD 7.1 (not Atmos). The sprinkles are lost in the process and there’s nothing the AVR can do to recover them.

——————————

One source of confusion here is that Atmos AVRs typically include a Surround Sound processing mode which will INVENT audio to send to your Height speakers when playing a non-Atmos track. So if you have the player do the decode and send HDMI LPCM 7.1 to the AVR, you may *STILL* get audio from your Height speakers depending on the Surround Sound processing you have enabled in the AVR. But this is *NOT* the same as playing the Atmos track AS Atmos in the AVR — sent as the original Bitstream from the player.
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post #3123 of 5142 Old 02-06-2019, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
Atmos on discs is a TrueHD 7.1 Bitstream with extra data I like to call the “sprinkles”. Only an Atmos decoder (in the AVR) will see the sprinkles. To get an Atmos track played AS Atmos you MUST send it to the AVR as an HDMI Bitstream. As far as the player is concerned, the track looks just like a TrueHD 7.1 Bitstream. The player does not see the sprinkles. The player will describe the track as a TrueHD 7.1 track. But so long as HDMI Bitstream output is used (and no other audio processing is enabled in the player) the sprinkles are preserved, and the AVR will discover it is actually being sent an Atmos Bitstream.

If you tell the player instead to decode the Atmos track into HDMI LPCM Digital audio output or into Analog audio output, it will work just as if the track really was just TrueHD 7.1 (not Atmos). The sprinkles are lost in the process and there’s nothing the AVR can do to recover them.

——————————

One source of confusion here is that Atmos AVRs typically include a Surround Sound processing mode which will INVENT audio to send to your Height speakers when playing a non-Atmos track. So if you have the player do the decode and send HDMI LPCM 7.1 to the AVR, you may *STILL* get audio from your Height speakers depending on the Surround Sound processing you have enabled in the AVR. But this is *NOT* the same as playing the Atmos track AS Atmos in the AVR — sent as the original Bitstream from the player.
—Bob
Wow this was extremely extremely well put and I absolutely love the sprinkle analogy. I complexity understand now and think that must be what was happening with my Blu Ray player still giving me overhead sound. Up to this point I had truly thought I was getting the full Dolby Atmos somehow since my AVR was showing the option so thanks to you I’m now able to enjoy true Dolby Atmos. Without you I wouldn’t be with this setup ever because I thought I had it. Thank you so VERY much for taking so much time to explain this to me.
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post #3124 of 5142 Old 02-06-2019, 06:49 PM
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I posted this earlier, sorry for the re-post. Hopefully, someone can answer this, I'm having a hard time finding the answer.

Has anyone tried playing files (m2ts, mkv, etc...) that had embedded HDR off of a USB drive. If so, is the player capable of auto-tone mapping those files?
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post #3125 of 5142 Old 02-07-2019, 12:13 AM
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I appreciate that most people on this forum are running projectors but as an OLED user I think my 'problem' is the same as you guys - my LG OLED has a maximum brightness limit of around 700 nit.

I currently run an LG 970 UHD player but actually get a brighter and more watchable picture from the included blu-ray discs than I do with most UHD HDR and DV discs - I find 'The Revenant' almost unwatchable in UHD. Planet Earth II UHD discs using the HLG system are beautifully bright on the OLED.

I am considering buying the 820 but would like confirmation that I will get a brighter picture on UHD discs using the 820's optimisation functionality?

If so I would also appreciate anyone who might be able to explain to me the logic involved? I understand that films mastered at 4,000 nit or even 10,000 nit are the problem in that brightness that is brighter than the OLED / projector is capable of will show all these levels the same - at the devices maximum brightness - hence white 'clipping' occurs. I can see that the 820 can correct this by spreading out the higher brightness levels to show detail in these formally clipped portions but how does it bring the overall brightness level up? My head says the spreading out would darken the medium bright portions?

Thinking about this is driving me mad! Any help would be very much appreciated.
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post #3126 of 5142 Old 02-07-2019, 07:45 AM
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Watching Altered Carbon on Netflix, I am getting 4K HDR but only DD+ and not atmos. Any suggestions? I think it worked the other day. I had an issue with Atmos and disks that I had to turn off the second HDMI video out. That is already done.
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Originally Posted by alv View Post
Watching Altered Carbon on Netflix, I am getting 4K HDR but only DD+ and not atmos. Any suggestions? I think it worked the other day. I had an issue with Atmos and disks that I had to turn off the second HDMI video out. That is already done.
Didn't think Netflix did actual Atmos.
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post #3128 of 5142 Old 02-07-2019, 08:22 AM
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They have quite a few shows with Atmos. I get it regularly on AppleTV but playing this morning with the HDR optimizer, it seemed to make things better on Altered Carbon which has a lot of dark scenes. Without the optimizer, the bright spots seemed to almost hurt my eyes.
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post #3129 of 5142 Old 02-07-2019, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by philphluter View Post
I appreciate that most people on this forum are running projectors but as an OLED user I think my 'problem' is the same as you guys - my LG OLED has a maximum brightness limit of around 700 nit.

I currently run an LG 970 UHD player but actually get a brighter and more watchable picture from the included blu-ray discs than I do with most UHD HDR and DV discs - I find 'The Revenant' almost unwatchable in UHD. Planet Earth II UHD discs using the HLG system are beautifully bright on the OLED.
This doesn't make any sense to me, but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. How could your SDR material be brighter than HDR material? I have an OLED and I actually turn down the OLED Light setting a bit when I watch HDR because it is so bright in a darker room. What picture mode are you using for SDR and what are your settings? Something seems weird here, and while people struggle sometimes to get a bright enough HDR image with a projector, I've never heard that for the HDR image on a OLED TV.
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post #3130 of 5142 Old 02-07-2019, 01:53 PM
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display panel crooked? Anyone else notice a misaligned display panel on the player?
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post #3131 of 5142 Old 02-07-2019, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post
This doesn't make any sense to me, but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. How could your SDR material be brighter than HDR material? I have an OLED and I actually turn down the OLED Light setting a bit when I watch HDR because it is so bright in a darker room. What picture mode are you using for SDR and what are your settings? Something seems weird here, and while people struggle sometimes to get a bright enough HDR image with a projector, I've never heard that for the HDR image on a OLED TV.
The “HDR to SDR conversion” and tone mapping in the 820, or any video processing algorithm, can’t make your display any brighter in terms of the brightest whites or highlights - that is a limitation of the display itself. What it can do is to make the image appear brighter by bringing up the mid-tones or parts of the image that are not the brightest whites or the deepest black. It is all the levels between black and white that comprise most of the image you see. How bright those areas are will determine how dark or bright the overall image appears. The goal of tone mapping is to make those areas look right on your particular display.

All displays use an algorithm to translate the numbers or bits associate with the brightness of any given pixel in the video stream to exactly how bright it will appear on the display. This is called the electro-optical transfer function (EOTF) and/or the gamma for the display.

As Kris Deering would say, the HDR to SDR conversion does not really convert HDR to SDR. The conversion on the 820 maintains the HDR color space, B.T. 2020 and bid depth, 10 or 12 bits, rather that converting to the real SDR’s Rec 709 and 8 bits. So, the image is really HDR in those respects. In the process however that video stream is converted from the HDR PQ gamma to the SDR 2.4 gamma function, and ideally does so in a way that tone maps the image intensity data to the abilities, e.g. available brightness, of the display. It is possible to customize this mapping to make the overall image appear brighter while at the same time keeping the brightest parts of the image from clipping. It works very well!

I hope this helps.
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post #3132 of 5142 Old 02-07-2019, 04:18 PM
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I hope this helps.
Thanks for the explanation, but it really doesn't help -- I don't think. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but what philphluter (who doesn't yet have a UB820) seemed to be saying was that when he played a UHD HDR or Dolby Vision disc on his LG player, the picture on his LG OLED was the same brightness or less bright than if he played an SDR disc. That's what has me confused. It really has nothing to do with tone mapping or the 820, as he doesn't even have an 820 or a player that does tone mapping.

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Originally Posted by smitty View Post
Thanks for the explanation, but it really doesn't help -- I don't think. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but what philphluter (who doesn't yet have a UB820) seemed to be saying was that when he played a UHD HDR or Dolby Vision disc on his LG player, the picture on his LG OLED was the same brightness or less bright than if he played an SDR disc. That's what has me confused. It really has nothing to do with tone mapping or the 820, as he doesn't even have an 820 or a player that does tone mapping.
That is because SDR is expecting an older less bright TV or display while HDR is expecting a newer OLED or similar type of display that in inherently much brighter. HDR is mastered on a very very bright displays and if played back on an older less bright display, it will seem dim. That is why tone mapping is used to make the HDR expanded brightness range fit into the older dimmer displays, or in many cases, projectors that are also less bright than the newer OLED displays.

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Originally Posted by shs1234 View Post
That is because SDR is expecting an older less bright TV or display while HDR is expecting a newer OLED or similar type of display that in inherently much brighter. HDR is mastered on a very very bright displays and if played back on an older less bright display, it will seem dim. That is why tone mapping is used to make the HDR expanded brightness range fit into the older dimmer displays, or in many cases, projectors that are also less bright than the newer OLED displays.
Pardon my ignorance -- I'm just learning to speak this language. But he seemed to be saying that his peak brightness for his OLED is 700 nits, and from my reading of the rtings tests, the peak brightness of the newest LG OLED's is in that range (actually 666 nits, I think.) Maybe he's incorrect on the peak brightness of his OLED. Maybe it's lower than what he says because it's an older set?
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Pardon my ignorance -- I'm just learning to speak this language. But he seemed to be saying that his peak brightness for his OLED is 700 nits, and from my reading of the rtings tests, the peak brightness of the newest LG OLED's is in that range (actually 666 nits, I think.) Maybe he's incorrect on the peak brightness of his OLED. Maybe it's lower than what he says because it's an older set?
I think most HDR material is mastered at 4000 nits. Some are at 1000 and a few at 10,000. Ideally a display or display processor will look at the HDR metadata that describes these levels and act accordingly to make the video stream fit into the capabilities of the display. That is what the 820 is trying to do in the SDR 2020 mode. That is about all I can add to this subject.

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Official Panasonic DP-UB820/824 Owner's Thread (No Price Talk)

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Originally Posted by shs1234 View Post
The “HDR to SDR conversion” and tone mapping in the 820, or any video processing algorithm, can’t make your display any brighter in terms of the brightest whites or highlights - that is a limitation of the display itself. What it can do is to make the image appear brighter by bringing up the mid-tones or parts of the image that are not the brightest whites or the deepest black. It is all the levels between black and white that comprise most of the image you see. How bright those areas are will determine how dark or bright the overall image appears. The goal of tone mapping is to make those areas look right on your particular display.



All displays use an algorithm to translate the numbers or bits associate with the brightness of any given pixel in the video stream to exactly how bright it will appear on the display. This is called the electro-optical transfer function (EOTF) and/or the gamma for the display.



As Kris Deering would say, the HDR to SDR conversion does not really convert HDR to SDR. The conversion on the 820 maintains the HDR color space, B.T. 2020 and bid depth, 10 or 12 bits, rather that converting to the real SDR’s Rec 709 and 8 bits. So, the image is really HDR in those respects. In the process however that video stream is converted from the HDR PQ gamma to the SDR 2.4 gamma function, and ideally does so in a way that tone maps the image intensity data to the abilities, e.g. available brightness, of the display. It is possible to customize this mapping to make the overall image appear brighter while at the same time keeping the brightest parts of the image from clipping. It works very well!



I hope this helps.

Very well said and explained! This is a great Note from the Lumagen Radiance Pro manual, which explains it in layman’s terms and does similar HDR to SDR Tone Mapping as the UB820:



Quote:
Originally Posted by shs1234 View Post
I think most HDR material is mastered at 4000 nits. Some are at 1000 and a few at 10,000. Ideally a display or display processor will look at the HDR metadata that describes these levels and act accordingly to make the video stream fit into the capabilities of the display. That is what the 820 is trying to do in the SDR 2020 mode. That is about all I can add to this subject.
Actually most UHD HDR Blu-ray Discs are mastered at 1,000 nits.
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post #3137 of 5142 Old 02-07-2019, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Very well said and explained! This is a great Note from the Lumagen Radiance Pro manual, which explains it in layman’s terms and does similar HDR to SDR Tone Mapping as the UB820:





Actually most UHD HDR Blu-ray Discs are mastered at 1,000 nits.
I had done a quick check of the no longer updated google docs spreadsheet for Max Lum before posting that and had the impression, perhaps mainly based on the UHD DVDs that I own, that the 4000s outnumber the 1000s. Based on your comments I checked again it looks like 79 at 1000 and 72 at 4000, so I stand corrected. Thanks for your correction and complement!

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I had done a quick check of the no longer updated google docs spreadsheet for Max Lum before posting that and had the impression, perhaps mainly based on the UHD DVDs that I own, that the 4000s outnumber the 1000s. Based on your comments I checked again it looks like 79 at 1000 and 72 at 4000, so I stand corrected. Thanks for your correction and complement!

Oh wow, that close huh? I had no idea of actual numbers really and just went by what I’d heard and experienced with the vast majority of my discs being 1,000 nits. Good sleuthing shs1234!
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Originally Posted by shs1234 View Post
The “HDR to SDR conversion” and tone mapping in the 820, or any video processing algorithm, can’t make your display any brighter in terms of the brightest whites or highlights - that is a limitation of the display itself. What it can do is to make the image appear brighter by bringing up the mid-tones or parts of the image that are not the brightest whites or the deepest black. It is all the levels between black and white that comprise most of the image you see. How bright those areas are will determine how dark or bright the overall image appears. The goal of tone mapping is to make those areas look right on your particular display.

All displays use an algorithm to translate the numbers or bits associate with the brightness of any given pixel in the video stream to exactly how bright it will appear on the display. This is called the electro-optical transfer function (EOTF) and/or the gamma for the display.

As Kris Deering would say, the HDR to SDR conversion does not really convert HDR to SDR. The conversion on the 820 maintains the HDR color space, B.T. 2020 and bid depth, 10 or 12 bits, rather that converting to the real SDR’s Rec 709 and 8 bits. So, the image is really HDR in those respects. In the process however that video stream is converted from the HDR PQ gamma to the SDR 2.4 gamma function, and ideally does so in a way that tone maps the image intensity data to the abilities, e.g. available brightness, of the display. It is possible to customize this mapping to make the overall image appear brighter while at the same time keeping the brightest parts of the image from clipping. It works very well!

I hope this helps.
Thanks shs1234. I think you have said all I need to know at the moment:

"and ideally does so in a way that tone maps the image intensity data to the abilities, e.g. available brightness, of the display. It is possible to customize this mapping to make the overall image appear brighter while at the same time keeping the brightest parts of the image from clipping. It works very well!"

Clearly my LG player doesn't do this at the moment because it doesn't take account of the display being used.

I might just clear up a point about OLED's. They are not the brightest TV's on the market, most high range led/lcd UHD 4k TV's are brighter. The reason OLED's can give such a good picture is that they do perfect blacks.

I am not complaining about the tv's SD or HD brightness performance, nor am I complaining about HD Blu-rays. It is just UHD blu-rays with HDR and DV that come out too dark. I accept the OLED is capable of giving a brilliant picture with HLG 4k UHD metadata as I said in my original post - ie Planet Earth II. It's just that UHD discs with HDR and DV - presumably the 4,000 nit mastered ones that come out extremely dark and no adjustment cures this without raising the blacks to grey (brightness setting). Maybe I have got an outlier in OLED panels but the difference with the same film on Blu-ray and on UHD Blu-ray is clearly visible.

What shs1234 has said above confirms the two benefits that the 820 will give me: 1. None or reduced clipping of whites at the bright end and 2. the increase in brightness of everything else.

It would be interesting to see what effect you get on your projector systems by selecting OLED on the player (I understand this assumes a 1,000 nit capability - the led/lcd TV setting assumes a higher value).
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It would be interesting to see what effect you get on your projector systems by selecting OLED on the player (I understand this assumes a 1,000 nit capability - the led/lcd TV setting assumes a higher value).
Due to the relatively low light output of projectors, the UB820 should always be set to output SDR BT2020----And while in this mode, the TV Type (such as OLED or LED etc.) is disregarded by the player.
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Due to the relatively low light output of projectors, the UB820 should always be set to output SDR BT2020----And while in this mode, the TV Type (such as OLED or LED etc.) is disregarded by the player.
The other advantage of the SDR BT2020 mode, as I understand it, is that it actually uses the HDR metadata to guide the conversion, e.g. it would treat a HDR stream mastered at 4000 nits differently than one mastered at 1000 nits. The top slider can be use to guide the conversion based on the brightness of the display, or projector, in my case.

What is really interesting in this mode, is to toggle on and off the HDR Optimizer setting. One might expect it to brighten and dim the image, but it does not. In most scenes, it seems to do little. However, pause on a scene where there are some very bright highlights and the effect is obvious. With the optimizer off, the highlights will be blown out; with it on, the highest levels are brought down to where one can now see detail in the highlights. I explored this with the scene in Wonder Woman where Steve is in the sinking plane and looking back at the brightly lit surface. The effects of the optimizer are obvious and very beneficial.

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Just got my 820, when I play blue ray it upconvers like it should, when I do YouTube or Netflix it shows 1080p signal when I check my input signal. Xbox streams them fine in 4K. Projector is a 5040. Am I missing a simple setting?
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post #3143 of 5142 Old 02-08-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jmeitz View Post
Just got my 820, when I play blue ray it upconvers like it should, when I do YouTube or Netflix it shows 1080p signal when I check my input signal. Xbox streams them fine in 4K. Projector is a 5040. Am I missing a simple setting?
I suspect you have your UB820 set to 4K60 4:2:0 as you get no picture if you try to set it to 4:4:4.

For some reason it seems that Netflix sends 1080p if you have the UB820 set to 4:2:0.

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post #3144 of 5142 Old 02-08-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by claw View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmeitz View Post
Just got my 820, when I play blue ray it upconvers like it should, when I do YouTube or Netflix it shows 1080p signal when I check my input signal. Xbox streams them fine in 4K. Projector is a 5040. Am I missing a simple setting?
I suspect you have your UB820 set to 4K60 4:2:0 as you get no picture if you try to set it to 4:4:4.

For some reason it seems that Netflix sends 1080p if you have the UB820 set to 4:2:0.
I assume the same applies to YouTube as well?

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post #3145 of 5142 Old 02-08-2019, 06:04 PM
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I did set it to 4:4:4 too but still 1080p only for Netflix n it is due to the limitation of that HDMI input chip inside Epson 5040. Besides that, the main problem is for the Netflix inside 820, it did all movies in 60p instead of 24p, which will go over their chip limit, when the movies are 4K n HDR.

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post #3146 of 5142 Old 02-08-2019, 08:20 PM
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I have UB820 and am still confused "tone mapping", HDR / SDR output.

If I understand correctly,

UB820 will map the tone for display brightness which will be 350 nits max when basic luminance / projector setup on either 1000 nits or 4000 nits mastered source. <-- this is called "auto tone mapping"

If I set output as SDR/BT2020 then it will shrink to 100 nit but keep BT2020 color space. <---not an auto tone mapping but still tone mapped? .

I have sony vw270es / vw295es

on projector side HDR10 mode, user should adjust setting on pj end to find best picture for each source (100 for 400 nits and 0 for 3000~4000 nits source) <-- manual tone mapping not auto

HDR reference will set max at 1000 nits <-- no tone mapping at all?

to users with UB820 and sony 295es, Can you share your setup on player and pj?
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post #3147 of 5142 Old 02-08-2019, 08:31 PM
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If I set output as SDR/BT2020 then it will shrink to 100 nit but keep BT2020 color space. <---not an auto tone mapping but still tone mapped? .
No, nothing shrinks to 100 nit. In SDR/BT2020 mode with the Optimizer turned ON, the Optimizer uses the HDR metadata to target the tone mapping.

For an extreme example, if MaxDML is 4000 nits and MaxCLL is 200 nits, the Optimizer will use a 200 nit tone map. If MaxDML is 1000 nits and MaxDLL is 800 nits, the Optimizer will use an 800 nit tone map.

This use of HDR metadata in tone mapping is similar to what the new line of JVC projectors do. JVC calls this auto tone mapping.
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Last edited by claw; 02-08-2019 at 08:34 PM.
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post #3148 of 5142 Old 02-08-2019, 08:38 PM
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No, nothing shrinks to 100 nit. In SDR/BT2020 mode with the Optimizer turned ON, the Optimizer uses the HDR metadata to target the tone mapping.

For an extreme example, if MaxDML is 4000 nits and MaxCLL is 200 nits, the Optimizer will tone map to 200 nits. If MaxDML is 1000 nits and MaxDLL is 800 nits, the Optimizer will tone map to 800 nits.

This use of HDR metadata in tone mapping is similar to what the new line of JVC projectors do. JVC calls this auto tone mapping.
Please correct me if i understand wrong.

if output is sdr, it has no hdr meta data, means no need to use hdr mode the pj and just adjust gamma.

auto tone mapping means, ub820 send mapped signal base on hdr meta data when set to sdr/bt2020

I though pj's hdr mode is only for signal with hdr meta data. but I found something from previous post, am i understanding correctly or completely wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

- DO NOT use the 820 HDR BT 2020 mode with your displays HDR mode, as i have found mixing HDR tone mapping of the display with the 820 HDR tone mapping can produce unintended artifacts. There maybe a way to make this work as well as SDR BT2020, but could not find such settings on my jvc x990 that were better than SDR BT2020.


how about hdr/bt2020 mode? is auto tone mapping not working when it set to hdr/bt2020?

what exactly player does when it send hdr signal with optimizer on?

Please excuse my ignorance,

Last edited by umjs78; 02-08-2019 at 09:08 PM.
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post #3149 of 5142 Old 02-08-2019, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post
Due to the relatively low light output of projectors, the UB820 should always be set to output SDR BT2020----And while in this mode, the TV Type (such as OLED or LED etc.) is disregarded by the player.
Many thanks atabea. I think the conclusion is that the 820 does some clever stuff to optimise the picture with different display types. Are all other 4k UHD players 'dumb' ignoring the display type being used?
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post #3150 of 5142 Old 02-09-2019, 08:34 AM
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Many thanks atabea. I think the conclusion is that the 820 does some clever stuff to optimise the picture with different display types. Are all other 4k UHD players 'dumb' ignoring the display type being used?
The 820 does, indeed, perform some clever stuff with the optimizer. While it does not "optimize" on a frame by frame basis (I think only Madvr does this and Lumagen is headed in the same direction), it sure does the next best thing by factoring in the max CLL (brightest pixel) and/or maxDML (max brightness of the mastering display). Like Claw indicated above, If the brightest pixel/scene is determined to be 200 nits then the file is tone mapped to that level. OPPO did claim that their SDR BT2020 tone mapping was also dynamically adaptive to the information on the disc but I am not convinced that it ever was. As to other UHD players, I am not aware of any other player that provides active tone mapping like the 820.
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