Official Panasonic DP-UB820/824 Owner's Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 128 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3811 of 5134 Old 04-03-2019, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by IGotB& View Post
Played with my issue a tad before bed last night and switching TV inputs doesn't force a change. Unfortunately, power on/off of the player appears to trigger a change but not the TV power. I got it to display the player menu with one of the power cycles, but going into the Netflix menu killed it once again.

No luck with a few power cycles today. I decided to abandon auto settings and make my own choices...the two that have worked so far for a few power cycles have been the HDMI inputs. Video was set to Video+Audio and Audio to Audio Only. My family can actually watch optical media now with just the TV and the player on; auto didn't provide audio because it was too smart and knew both were connected and wouldn't need audio back to the TV. They don't want to be bothered turning things on manually. They have a universal remote that rarely gets used, but a power amp and amp/woofer have manual buttons.

Reached out to Panasonic and Sony last night via their web e-mail. I quickly got auto responses from both but the Panasonic site didn't give me any real options for an "issue". I immediately got canned replies from Panasonic with links to resolutions that didn't apply (that's all I could select)...well, that's what FAQs are for!

Got a response from Sony later in the night telling me to reboot / factory reset but it appeared to be a typical response. Responded and got another response today with them pointing the finger at Panasonic. Figured I'd get this and I'm sure, if Panasonic responds, they'll point it back at them.
Lumping all the 4K UHD players over a 3-year period into one basket, this is the trashiest roll-out of electronics product I can remember.

Oppo gone, Samsung gone....and then there were none.

Cue up Devo.

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post #3812 of 5134 Old 04-03-2019, 05:31 PM
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Wow, quite the snobs here.

I go to where the content is because no service has everything I'm interested in.

I subscribe to my cable TV provider for HBO/Showtime shows, other movie channels and cable news. I subscribe to Netflix optical media because you don't get the newly released stuff from their streaming service. Many movies are hardly worth purchasing or even watching a second time. I stream some shows from Netflix and some movies not available via optical or if I don't want to wait for the mailing. Prime has just a handful of stuff I bother with, to include a few shows or movies Netflix doesn't carry. Then there's Vudu for stuff not available from the previous choices and the very occasional movie rental of yet to be released new stuff.

Don't bother with hulu (who the hell pays for OTA programming with commercials?) or the multitude of crappy "cord cutter" garbage out there that's "free". Guess people are settlers like the DirectTV commercials. I have OTA setup but it's only there if there happens to be a cable outage and desperate enough that I needed to watch crappy commercial ridden junk. Same goes for youtube junk....that's a computer thing for something I may be interested that's running in the background, on another monitor, while I read/doing something else.

And I'm not one of those that goes out to rebuy my previous generation movie collection. I'm only buying 4K titles of new releases, something I didn't have but haven't gotten around to getting, and not up converted (fake 4K). I've ripped some of my collection (MKV) for internal streaming from NAS but too much work and have to find some "I'm bored" time. I did that with my music collection (WAV).

Wow, now I sound like a snob too.

Back on topic. I prefer optical media over streaming and don't buy every piece of garbage hollywood releases; that's where the other source compromise comes in. I still go to theaters when I feel the movie is good enough for my $.
Snob?. Is that because I want to watch the best possible version of a movie and not settle for streaming cause its cheap and convenient. And yes I will buy a movie more than once if its worthy or better in 4K.

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post #3813 of 5134 Old 04-03-2019, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by IGotB& View Post
Wow, quite the snobs here.

<snip>

Back on topic. I prefer optical media over streaming and don't buy every piece of garbage hollywood releases; that's where the other source compromise comes in. I still go to theaters when I feel the movie is good enough for my $.
Heh heh! Yes, which is why people like us are on AVS forum, blu-ray.com forum, etc. If I was ok with whatever I'd probably be in some bubble on twitter or some other negative unmoderated social media platform

I don't go to theaters. And given the cost and inconvenience of going to a cinema (travel, waiting, scheduling, etc) for one or two people, buying a UHD is an easy alternative...
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post #3814 of 5134 Old 04-03-2019, 06:37 PM
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Heh heh! Yes, which is why people like us are on AVS forum, blu-ray.com forum, etc. If I was ok with whatever I'd probably be in some bubble on twitter or some other negative unmoderated social media platform

I don't go to theaters. And given the cost and inconvenience of going to a cinema (travel, waiting, scheduling, etc) for one or two people, buying a UHD is an easy alternative...

Wife and I also quit going out to the theater, that is why I am upgrading my H/T to 4K and Atmos sound. I just got tired of everything that's involved with going out to the Cinema these days. I would rather just wait and buy the UHD when it comes out.

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post #3815 of 5134 Old 04-03-2019, 07:35 PM
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Wife and I also quit going out to the theater, that is why I am upgrading my H/T to 4K and Atmos sound. I just got tired of everything that's involved with going out to the Cinema these days. I would rather just wait and buy the UHD when it comes out.
I'm 110% with you. I did the same, and have in no way regretted a second of the decision... I've just been tweaking more with stuff like the Panasonic with the tone mapping, plus I discovered the BEQ thread, lol.
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post #3816 of 5134 Old 04-03-2019, 08:18 PM
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i'm 110% with you. I did the same, and have in no way regretted a second of the decision... I've just been tweaking more with stuff like the panasonic with the tone mapping, plus i discovered the beq thread, lol.
"beq"?

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post #3817 of 5134 Old 04-03-2019, 08:28 PM
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"beq"?
Bass equalization. Where you learn about how studios are really messing with the low frequency on a lot of home releases recently, and how to fix it:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ed-movies.html

After listening to First Man with BEQ, it is amazing what a difference it made. I don't do it for all movies, just ones where when you look at the curve, it is obviously unnaturally filtered.
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post #3818 of 5134 Old 04-04-2019, 04:34 AM
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Complaints received. Please stick to technical discussion of the player. This is not the place to debate streaming vs. physical media.

Update: More complaints more posts removed. Not the place for soundbars, movie mastering, etc. Stick to the 820 and functions related to the 820.
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post #3819 of 5134 Old 04-04-2019, 11:13 AM
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Hello!
Does anyone know if the UB820 can play external subtitles from USB when I watch UHD discs?

Example, the bluray "The Silence of the Lambs (1991)" of Criterion, has only subtitles in English and I want to put subtitles in another language. Can the subtitles be put by putting them through an External USB? Or someone knows a way to add subtitles?

I would be very grateful if someone gives me a solution for this.

Thank you!!
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post #3820 of 5134 Old 04-04-2019, 12:17 PM
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Hey all. Bear with me here as I am new to having a more Premium disc player.


I got my UB820 and have had some time to play around with it. As I said, this is by far the most I have ever spend on a disc player. My previous 4K Blu-Ray Player is a UBK90, which I got not even 6 months ago when I got my first 4K TV, an LG 65 C8. Being curious about what a higher end player can do, I looked and settled on the UB820, largely based on what I heard about it's picture quality and HDR Optimizer Feature.

It's the latter thing that I want to talk about and ask about as I really would like to get an idea of what people with this player do with regards to settings.

First though, help me understand something about the HDR Optimizer. I know from watching HDTVTest videos (Vincent, as I am sure most of you know) that setting the player to OLED makes it tone map down to 1000 nits. But my TV doesn't even go to 1000 nits. So why is that the OLED Preset? Would I be better off actually selecting one of the other TV presets that map down lower?

In the few discs I tested, I noticed that any disc I tried that was already at 1000 nits, the optimizer literally did nothing to. Is that working as expected?

My biggest concern is deciding about my TVs own tone mapping. Do I want to use it too? Or just the players? On content that was 4000 nits, I definitely noticed a difference when I experimented with using one or both my TV's and player's optimizers/tone mapping.

FWIW, I like playing my content as pure as possible, without any enhancements or changes. But that being said, if a scene is blown out because the HDR goes higher than my TV can produce and I am missing detail, I of course would like to get that back.

Thanks for your time. I'd really love to hear who using the tone mapper on thier TV and the one with the player or if you use just one or the other.
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post #3821 of 5134 Old 04-04-2019, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
Hey all. Bear with me here as I am new to having a more Premium disc player.


I got my UB820 and have had some time to play around with it. As I said, this is by far the most I have ever spend on a disc player. My previous 4K Blu-Ray Player is a UBK90, which I got not even 6 months ago when I got my first 4K TV, an LG 65 C8. Being curious about what a higher end player can do, I looked and settled on the UB820, largely based on what I heard about it's picture quality and HDR Optimizer Feature.

It's the latter thing that I want to talk about and ask about as I really would like to get an idea of what people with this player do with regards to settings.

First though, help me understand something about the HDR Optimizer. I know from watching HDTVTest videos (Vincent, as I am sure most of you know) that setting the player to OLED makes it tone map down to 1000 nits. But my TV doesn't even go to 1000 nits. So why is that the OLED Preset? Would I be better off actually selecting one of the other TV presets that map down lower?

In the few discs I tested, I noticed that any disc I tried that was already at 1000 nits, the optimizer literally did nothing to. Is that working as expected?

My biggest concern is deciding about my TVs own tone mapping. Do I want to use it too? Or just the players? On content that was 4000 nits, I definitely noticed a difference when I experimented with using one or both my TV's and player's optimizers/tone mapping.

FWIW, I like playing my content as pure as possible, without any enhancements or changes. But that being said, if a scene is blown out because the HDR goes higher than my TV can produce and I am missing detail, I of course would like to get that back.

Thanks for your time. I'd really love to hear who using the tone mapper on thier TV and the one with the player or if you use just one or the other.

First though, help me understand something about the HDR Optimizer. I know from watching HDTVTest videos (Vincent, as I am sure most of you know) that setting the player to OLED makes it tone map down to 1000 nits. But my TV doesn't even go to 1000 nits. So why is that the OLED Preset? Would I be better off actually selecting one of the other TV presets that map down lower?

- OLED TVs should do a good job of tone mapping 1000 nit titles.
- You don't want to use a lower setting as your OLED can likely display more than 500 nits peak brightness.

In the few discs I tested, I noticed that any disc I tried that was already at 1000 nits, the optimizer literally did nothing to. Is that working as expected?

- Yes, this is expected. A 1000 nit disc doesn't need much if any tone mapping if your HDR TV Type is set to a 1000 nit TV. The TV will do the tone mapping.
- If the MaxCLL value of a 1000 nit mastered disc is zero, there will be little to no tone mapping as the Optimizer will use a 1000 nit tone map.
- If the MaxCLL value of a 1000 nit mastered disc is greater than zero and less than 1000, the Optimizer will tone map to the MaxCLL value and you should see some difference.


My biggest concern is deciding about my TVs own tone mapping. Do I want to use it too? Or just the players? On content that was 4000 nits, I definitely noticed a difference when I experimented with using one or both my TV's and player's optimizers/tone mapping.

- That's up to you to decide.
- I think most HDR TV owners are using the Optimizer in HDR output mode where both the player and the TV are performing tone mapping.
- I think most HDR Projector owners are using the Optimizer in SDR/BT2020 output mode since most projectors don't have the same tone mapping capabilities as TVs.

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JVC RS500|LG B7A OLED|Denon X6400H/X4200W|Panasonic UB820|Two Oppo 203|Samsung K8500|Apple TV 4K|HDfury Diva/Vertex/Linker/Integral

Last edited by claw; 04-04-2019 at 01:50 PM.
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post #3822 of 5134 Old 04-04-2019, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
My biggest concern is deciding about my TVs own tone mapping. Do I want to use it too? Or just the players? On content that was 4000 nits, I definitely noticed a difference when I experimented with using one or both my TV's and player's optimizers/tone mapping.
What was your own assessment when you compared the two approaches? My expectation is that a single tone-mapping in the signal path should give brighter highlights, as tone mapping is a form of compression, and can only reduce the highlights (e.g., from 4000 nits to 1000 nits), not increase the highlights.

Quote:
FWIW, I like playing my content as pure as possible, without any enhancements or changes.
Uncoordinated double tone-mapping can never be pure, as one device does not know what the other is doing, other than possibly the peak nits.

In that sense, SDR2020 should give you the purest tone-mapping, as the player has full knowledge of the TV's behaviour, and can perform tone-mapping that’s not further modified by the TV in some undefined manner.

Quote:
But that being said, if a scene is blown out because the HDR goes higher than my TV can produce and I am missing detail, I of course would like to get that back.
If tone mapping is customized for the peak nits of your TV, there shouldn’t be any blown highlights.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 04-10-2019 at 09:48 AM.
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post #3823 of 5134 Old 04-04-2019, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by fr8flyr View Post
Wife and I also quit going out to the theater, that is why I am upgrading my H/T to 4K and Atmos sound. I just got tired of everything that's involved with going out to the Cinema these days. I would rather just wait and buy the UHD when it comes out.
We're right there with you. Considering what we spent on our theater room during the basement finish, we'd much rather buy a new release that had good reviews, use the popcorn maker, grab some movie candy out of the bar cabinet, and enjoy the investment as a family before setting foot in a commercial theater.

EDIT: I just bought a UB820 yesterday to pair with the new JVC RS2000 that should arrive any day. I'm looking forward to seeing how well they work together.

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post #3824 of 5134 Old 04-04-2019, 07:49 PM
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What was your own assessment when you compared the two approaches? My expectation is that a single tone-mapping in the signal path should give brighter highlights, as tone mapping is a form of compression, and can only reduce the highlights (e.g., from 4000 nits to 1000 nitsj, not increase the highlights.
Hey. Thank you very much for your reply. You have really given me a lot to think about. I saw your reply a few hours ago and have been mulling over it in my head ever since. I'd say that since I have asked my questions to a few different people, more have actually said to use both tone mappers than to use one or the other. But having said that... what you said actually makes more sense to me. You're part about brighter highlights especially rang true because after doing some very crude A/B testing last night, what happened to the highlights when using both tone mappers is what was "bothering me."

Take a look at the attached image. It's by no means a controlled example but it's all I got. From top to bottom the pictures are: No Tone Mapping at all, C8 Only, UB820 Only, and finally both. Using this rather extreme scene as the example it got me wondering. Sure you can see more flesh tones in the bottom image...but should you be able to? I mean he is being lit by the harsh light of a lighting bolt. I wouldn't think you SHOULD be able to make out detailed flesh tones. It's a bright white light!


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Uncoordinated double tone-mapping can never be pure, as one device does not know what the other is doing, other than possibly the peak nits.
This is a good point and not something I considered. Reviewers state the player brings the nits down to 1000 (on content mastered highter) and then gives that to your TV so it has "Less to do" but maybe the problem is it doesn't know what "is left to do" after the player already did its thing. I hope that made sense. It sounds like you are saying it does not really work the way people thing it does.



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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
In that sense, SDR2020 should give you the purest tone-mapping, as the player has full knowledge of the TV's behaviour, and can perform tone-mapping that’s not further modified by the TV in some undefined manner.
What is SDR2020 and how would I do what you are suggesting?


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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If tone mapping is customized for the peak nits of your TV, there shouldn’t be any blown highlights.
If I understand what you are saying, it sounds like you prefer the tone mapping of a tv?

For my own sake, may I ask what you personally do as far as tone mapping?

I want to like this player as I was excited to get it and have for once a more premium player. I definitely like aspects of it already, but I don't know if I can justify the $500 price if I don't end up using the tone mapper on it. It's not about the money. I wish it was, it would be easier. It's about what I need. I know I want something better than my UBK90. Just not sure, unfortunately, if the UB820 is the answer. I am not ready to give up on it yet though!
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post #3825 of 5134 Old 04-04-2019, 09:02 PM
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We're right there with you. Considering what we spent on our theater room during the basement finish, we'd much rather buy a new release that had good reviews, use the popcorn maker, grab some movie candy out of the bar cabinet, and enjoy the investment as a family before setting foot in a commercial theater.

Not to mention:
- Pause if you want a bathroom break
- Pause to get a drink refill
- Set the volume how you like it
- Have a higher quality AV experience of the movie
- Not have to put up with people incessantly lighting up cell phones...

You couldn't pay me to see a movie in a theater anymore. The last movie I saw in the cinemas was The Kingdom in 2007. I had free tickets. The movie stuffed up mid movie. My wife walked out too as the camera motion was making her seasick....

I'm perfectly happy waiting for an official disc release. I don't have to see anything new. I don't worry about spoilers.

I'd rather spend money on nice gear like the Panasonic. Thinking about it, it is probably the only player I've had to date where I did actually have the capability or need to use the player settings for video. Usually I just use them as dumb transports.
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post #3826 of 5134 Old 04-04-2019, 10:20 PM
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Take a look at the attached image. It's by no means a controlled example but it's all I got. From top to bottom the pictures are: No Tone Mapping at all, C8 Only, UB820 Only, and finally both. Using this rather extreme scene as the example it got me wondering. Sure you can see more flesh tones in the bottom image...but should you be able to? I mean he is being lit by the harsh light of a lighting bolt. I wouldn't think you SHOULD be able to make out detailed flesh tones. It's a bright white light!
The answer is actually not that obvious. Keep in mind that the most accurate image is the one displayed on the 4000-nit mastering display. On a TV that with 1000 nits peak, the extreme highlights will be clipped without tone mapping. Tone mapping compresses the highlights to “fit” in the available nits range and trade-offs are always involved - a steeper slope at near the top gives better gradation, but it also means the highlights will be less bright. What I meant in my previous post was that the “purest” tone mapping should follow ST.2390 (even though it’s officially a recommendation and not a standard). When two devices are doing independent tone-mapping, the overall result is that the highlights are getting compressed more, which will likely provide more gradation in the highlights but it will not be following ST.2390 and is less “pure” in that sense. An analogy would be dynamic volume setting in audio.


Quote:
This is a good point and not something I considered. Reviewers state the player brings the nits down to 1000 (on content mastered highter) and then gives that to your TV so it has "Less to do" but maybe the problem is it doesn't know what "is left to do" after the player already did its thing. I hope that made sense. It sounds like you are saying it does not really work the way people thing it does.
That’s precisely the point I’m making.

Quote:
What is SDR2020 and how would I do what you are suggesting?
SDR2020 is an option in the 820 Advanced setting. Turning it on is equivalent to asking the players to do all the tone mapping.

Quote:
If I understand what you are saying, it sounds like you prefer the tone mapping of a tv?

For my own sake, may I ask what you personally do as far as tone mapping?
I have a JVC projector which allows you to do custom tone mapping. This is essential for a projector as the final image depends heavily on the screen size, Gain, etc. For a direct-view TV the built in tone mapping can do a good job. However, personally I still don’t believe in double tone mapping.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 04-05-2019 at 07:13 AM.
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post #3827 of 5134 Old 04-05-2019, 11:24 AM
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The answer is actually not that obvious. Keep in mind that the most accurate image is the one displayed on the 4000-nit mastering display. On a TV that with 1000 nits peak, the extreme highlights will be clipped without tone mapping. Tone mapping compresses the highlights to “fit” in the available nits range and trade-offs are always involved - a steeper slope at near the top gives better gradation, but it also means the highlights will be less bright.
What I meant in my previous post was that the “purest” tone mapping should follow ST.2390 (even though it’s officially a recommendation and not a standard). When two devices are doing independent tone-mapping, the overall result is that the highlights are getting compressed more, which will likely provide more gradation in the highlights but it will not be following ST.2390 and is less “pure” in that sense. An analogy would be dynamic volume setting in audio.

Hello again. Thanks for the further information. I must admit I am not quite following all of this, but I am trying. Please bear with me. When you say a "steeper slope" what do you mean? Using my own screenshots as an example, maybe they can help me understand better. On the image with both mappers on, I clearly see more flesh tones on the face, but there are less bright highlights. Which makes me wonder...which one is right? Perhaps there is no right answer? It's just...preference?
Using the audio analogy of Dynamic Volume helps me understand more what you mean, but also (to me) gives tone mapping a generally negative feel as in my experience, dynamic volume is almost never good or preferred.

However in the case of tone mapping since our displays can't display the brightness these movies are mastered at, I feel you pretty much HAVE to have some kind of tone mapping otherwise aren't you missing out on a lot of information? Or am I understanding this all wrong?


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SDR2020 is an option in the 820 Advanced setting. Turning it on is equivalent to asking the players to do all the tone mapping.
Is this the same as using the HDR Optimizer on the player or something different? When you say ALL, do you mean mapping down to what the TV can handle, nits wise? (As opposed to just mapping down to 1000 nits which is still higher than my TV handles.) If something is mapped to 1000 and my TV optimizer is off, anyhting between my TVs 800 nits (or whatever it is) and the 1000 nits of the disc is just lost correct?

A user mentioned something to me yesterday I had never heard before. He said the UB820 can actually map down to what your TV can handle (Because the TV tells the player what it can handle) and not just to 1000 nits as I previous thought. Is that what are you are saying happens by using SDR2020?

SDR in this case doesn't stand for Standard Dynamic Range, does it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I have a JVC projector which allows you to do custom tone mapping. This is essential for a projector as the final image depends heavily on the screen size, Gain, etc. For a direct-view TV the built in tone mapping can do a good job. However, personally I still don’t believe in double tone mapping.
At first I thought using 2 was definitely not the way to go, but perhaps it isn't as clear as I first though.

Thank you for your time again.
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post #3828 of 5134 Old 04-05-2019, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeonstar View Post
Hello again. Thanks for the further information. I must admit I am not quite following all of this, but I am trying. Please bear with me. When you say a "steeper slope" what do you mean? Using my own screenshots as an example, maybe they can help me understand better. On the image with both mappers on, I clearly see more flesh tones on the face, but there are less bright highlights. Which makes me wonder...which one is right? Perhaps there is no right answer? It's just...preference?
You can only get the exactly "right" picture if you have enough nits (say 4000 nits). The dotted white line in the graph below is a standard ST.2084 PQ curve. It shows what would happen on a 1000-nit TV without tone mapping (see yellow line). All inputs above 75% are hard-clipped , i.e., displaying as pure white with no details.




The yellow line in the second graph shows the "standard" tone mapping based on ST.2390. In essence it compresses the luminance range from 4000 to 1000 in order to "fit" everything (note the expanded scale for clarity). The dotted white line is an alternate tone mapping with steeper slope near the top. It shows "more" highlight details by providing a greater differentiation between 85% and 90% compared with the yellow line, but all the highlights are dimmer.


What I'm trying to say is that, it's preferred to do all such adjustments in one device (the UB820 provides controls for adjusting the tone mapping). If you do tone mapping in two independent devices, you cannot predict what the overall effect will be.

Quote:
Is this the same as using the HDR Optimizer on the player or something different?
It's related. HDR Optimizer varies the tone mapping depending on the source material.

Quote:
When you say ALL, do you mean mapping down to what the TV can handle, nits wise? (As opposed to just mapping down to 1000 nits which is still higher than my TV handles.)
Yes. If your TV can handle what the player maps to, then it does not need to perform any tone mapping.

Quote:
If something is mapped to 1000 and my TV optimizer is off, anyhting between my TVs 800 nits (or whatever it is) and the 1000 nits of the disc is just lost correct?
No, it won't be "lost". Your TV will be tone mapping from 1000 down to 800 nits, unless you turn off it’s tone mapping in which case the extreme highlights will be clipped.

Quote:
A user mentioned something to me yesterday I had never heard before. He said the UB820 can actually map down to what your TV can handle (Because the TV tells the player what it can handle) and not just to 1000 nits as I previous thought.
You can "tell" the UB820 what your TV's peak luminance is. However, there are only a few presets to choose from.

Quote:
Is that what are you are saying happens by using SDR2020? SDR in this case doesn't stand for Standard Dynamic Range, does it?
SDR does stand for Standard Dynamic Range, but it's misleading in this case. You are essentially telling the UB820 to "handle" all the HDR functions, so that the TV doesn't need to worry about it.

Quote:
At first I thought using 2 was definitely not the way to go, but perhaps it isn't as clear as I first though.
As I mentioned, it's not "wrong" to do it, but the results are not well-defined. If, as you stated earlier, “I like playing my content as pure as possible, without any enhancements or changes”, then double tone mapping will not give you that.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 04-05-2019 at 05:43 PM.
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post #3829 of 5134 Old 04-05-2019, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
What settings are you using on the UB820 in combination with Chad's curves?
HDR Explained!
I recommended a value -added article especially to our Forum participants that as of late have debated if they should upgrade their Blu- Ray player since
the new players have the HDR mapping process i.e. Panasonic DP-UB 820, Sony UBP-X800M2 etc.
There is much confusion about high dynamic range (HDR), in this article, Kris Deering (Sound & Vison Technical Editor)
demystify the subject of HDR, a most significant development to hit home video in years.
The link to his article of Feb.5, 2019

HDR (High Dynamic Range) Explained

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/hdr-explained

Also same topic is included in the Sound & Vison Magazine, April/May 2019 edition.
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Wonder how do I turn off the tone mapping on my Epson 5040, so the 820 can do that on its own.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac388 View Post
Wonder how do I turn off the tone mapping on my Epson 5040, so the 820 can do that on its own.
The easiest way is to use gamma 2.4 on the Epson, and set the UB820 to output SDR2020.
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post #3832 of 5134 Old 04-05-2019, 07:45 PM
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Just got a Samsung Q90 and ordered a UB-820 bluray player. Curious to what is better for streaming Netflix - my Apple TV 4K or the Panasonic. Any difference between the two?
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post #3833 of 5134 Old 04-05-2019, 07:49 PM
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Noted with thanks. However, of those 2 moves, which one really signal the Turning-off of Tone mapping on the Epson, or a combination of both ?

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post #3834 of 5134 Old 04-05-2019, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac388 View Post
Noted with thanks. However, of those 2 moves, which one really signal the Turning-off of Tone mapping on the Epson, or a combination of both ?
Gamma 2.4 has no tone mapping.
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post #3835 of 5134 Old 04-05-2019, 08:00 PM
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Thanks n interesting to know. So, tone-mapping on Epson will be turned off when selecting 2.4

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post #3836 of 5134 Old 04-05-2019, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You can only get the exactly "right" picture if you have enough nits (say 4000 nits). The dotted white line in the graph below is a standard ST.2084 PQ curve. It shows what would happen on a 1000-nit TV without tone mapping (see yellow line). All inputs above 75% are hard-clipped , i.e., displaying as pure white with no details.

The yellow line in the second graph shows the "standard" tone mapping based on ST.2390. In essence it compresses the luminance range from 4000 to 1000 in order to "fit" everything (note the expanded scale for clarity). The dotted white line is an alternate tone mapping with steeper slope near the top. It shows "more" highlight details by providing a greater differentiation between 85% and 90% compared with the yellow line, but all the highlights are dimmer.

What I'm trying to say is that, it's preferred to do all such adjustments in one device (the UB820 provides controls for adjusting the tone mapping). If you do tone mapping in two independent devices, you cannot predict what the overall effect will be.
Thanks for those images. I've been gaining a better understanding the last few days of tone mapping and those align with what I have learned and am starting to better understand. I'm all but sold on using the tone mapping on one device vs both. However that leads me to the big question of which one. I still do not quite understand if I can use the tone mapping of the UB820 and that be "enough." Will it or will it not tone map down to what my C8 can display? Or will it stop at 1000 nits, which is short of what my display can show (as I understand it.)


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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It's related. HDR Optimizer varies the tone mapping depending on the source material.
I have been using the HDR Optimizer and tone mapping terms interchangably. I actually thought they were one and the same but am starting to think they are not and I was mistaken. Is the HDR Optimizer on the UB820 not actually the Panasonic's tone mapper? If it isn't, then what is and how does one turn it on and off?


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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Yes. If your TV can handle what the player maps to, then it does not need to perform any tone mapping.
You said IF. Can my C8 handle what the player maps down to?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
No, it won't be "lost". Your TV will be tone mapping from 1000 down to 800 nits, unless you turn off it’s tone mapping in which case the extreme highlights will be clipped.
Wont that only be the case if my TVs dynamic tone mapping is also on? Again, I might be mixing up terms that shouldn't be. Is my TV's Dynamic Tone Mapping not the only tone mapping it does?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You can "tell" the UB820 what your TV's peak luminance is. However, there are only a few presets to choose from.
When I select my TV type, is that me "telling" it what my TV's peak luminance is?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
SDR does stand for Standard Dynamic Range, but it's misleading in this case. You are essentially telling the UB820 to "handle" all the HDR functions, so that the TV doesn't need to worry about it.
I looked up the "description" on the player when selecting this and boy you weren't kidding, it is misleading. I'm really confused on this as to me, it seems like it is saying it basically send my TV a Standard Dynamic Range image only. Would you mind going over again why I might want to set it to SDR2020 and what that does for me in the end?

Thanks again.
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post #3837 of 5134 Old 04-05-2019, 09:58 PM
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Spoiler!


All your info has been helpful and makes sense, so thanks. I've been toggling between outputting in SDR2020 or HDR2020. Although both settings have provided impressive pictures, I'd give the edge to SDR2020. So I think I'll stick with that for now and try to dial in the other settings on my Epson 5040.

Speaking of other settings, the Epson doesn't have a 2.4 in the gamma settings, which is what I should aim for, right? There is a gamma of 2 that I could select. Should I do that? And should I mess with the black/white tone curves and gamma settings on the 820?

Also, anyone with the Epson 5040 using SDR2020 from the Panny 820? What settings should I be sure to have on or off? Thanks!

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post #3838 of 5134 Old 04-05-2019, 10:00 PM
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Question How to turn off tone mapping in my projector?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The easiest way is to use gamma 2.4 on the Epson, and set the UB820 to output SDR2020.
I'm a bit confused as to what you're recommending to use if I just want "playing my content as pure as possible, without any enhancements or changes".
My current setup:
Panasonic UB820 output HDR2020 (HDR Optimizer ON) to Sony projector (HDR mode ON) = double tone mapping scenario

To have ALL TONE MAPPING be done by the UB820:
Do I set UB820 to output SDR2020 (HDR Optimizer ON) and turn OFF the HDR mode in the projector and set gamma to 2.4
OR
set UB820 to output SDR2020 (HDR Optimizer ON) and turn ON HDR mode in projector?
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post #3839 of 5134 Old 04-06-2019, 01:01 AM
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Quick question. Is there a way to get the UB820 to NOT start a disc on power on? If you leave a disc in the player and it’s
Off, when you turn it on it starts playing.
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post #3840 of 5134 Old 04-06-2019, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexdragon View Post
I'm a bit confused as to what you're recommending to use if I just want "playing my content as pure as possible, without any enhancements or changes".
My current setup:
Panasonic UB820 output HDR2020 (HDR Optimizer ON) to Sony projector (HDR mode ON) = double tone mapping scenario

To have ALL TONE MAPPING be done by the UB820:
Do I set UB820 to output SDR2020 (HDR Optimizer ON) and turn OFF the HDR mode in the projector and set gamma to 2.4
OR
set UB820 to output SDR2020 (HDR Optimizer ON) and turn ON HDR mode in projector?
If the UB820 is set to output SDR2020, then the projector should be set to the SDR gamma 2.4 (or 2.2) but still with the BT.2020 colour Profile. With this combination the UB820 provides the implementation of the HDR10 PQ curve as well as all the tone mapping since the projector is in SDR mode (no tone mapping).

If the UB820 is set to output HDR2020 and the display type is set to Projector, then the projector should be set to the HDR mode. With this combination the UB820 remaps the HDR signal to 500 nits max, and the projector provides the PQ curve but will be doing little or no tone mapping as the UB820 already limits the signal such that there will be no clipping even without tone mapping in the projector.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 04-06-2019 at 06:19 AM.
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