Official Panasonic DP-UB820/824 Owner's Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 136 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4051 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 04:51 PM
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Though I’ve watched the video before (once some time before I purchased my players) I missed the results of clipping. Thanks.
Crap. I didn’t disable my OLED’s “Dynamic Tone Mapping” in any of my testing.
In my defense… that’s why I had originally posted asking for recommendations on how to test.
Looks like I’ll be doing some cram-testing tonight.
So… I’ll try t.v. with tone-mapping off and 820s HDR optimization on.
I’ll compare that against the t.v. tone-mapping “on” while playing the LG UBK90.
I’ll also mix several combinations of the two.
But he does wrap it up in the end and say that you will see less results from a lower luminance display.
So, I guess I’m also seeing why you find it irritating, @MOberhardt .
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post #4052 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
By technical definition, SDR is for a target of a fixed 100 nits / 100cd/m2.
Yes, but that’s done on the display side - you calibrate the output to 100 nits peak, and everything else follows the gamma curve. The source (e.g. disc) carries no information on the luminance, unlike HDR10.

In any case, this is starting to get off topic.
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post #4053 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 05:00 PM
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Perhaps the point is that when the 820 puts out SDR/2020 it is not really SDR. It still has the BT.2020 color space and the HDR bit depth, but has been tone mapped to use a convenient SDR 2.4 gamma function and an appropriate nit level for your display, which may do have the ability to do more or less than 100 nits. Don't get hung up on the label SDR.

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post #4054 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Yes, but that’s done on the display side - you calibrate the output to 100 nits peak, and everything else follows the gamma curve. The source (e.g. disc) carries no information on the luminance, unlike HDR10.

In any case, this is starting to get off topic.
Off topic? I'm struggling to make sense of what the player is actually outputting and what I should be doing... I do wish Panasonic had a decent reference manual explaining every setting. As it is, the manual gives a low value, non technical descriptions of about 70% of the options available in the unit, and no information on others.
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post #4055 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 05:45 PM
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Perhaps the point is that when the 820 puts out SDR/2020 it is not really SDR. It still has the BT.2020 color space and the HDR bit depth, but has been tone mapped to use a convenient SDR 2.4 gamma function and an appropriate nit level for your display, which may do have the ability to do more or less than 100 nits. Don't get hung up on the label SDR.
That’s why I find it puzzling that the display nits setting supposedly has no effect, when using SDR2020.
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post #4056 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 05:54 PM
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I got to say I'm supremely irritated by how messed up this whole era of 4k hardware cooperation is. It is idiotic, and the 1080p era was so much simpler.
I agree completely, that’s why SDR2020 is so great. It behaves exactly like HD.
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I wish I KNEW DEFINITIVELY what it was outputting in SDR2020 mode, not just hearsay. That metadata info page just makes it nonsensical.
I know you’ve seen my UB820 settings guide. Just follow it and you’ll know your in SDR2020.
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Off topic? I'm struggling to make sense of what the player is actually outputting and what I should be doing... I do wish Panasonic had a decent reference manual explaining every setting. As it is, the manual gives a low value, non technical descriptions of about 70% of the options available in the unit, and no information on others.
To be fair, almost all user manuals suck. Don’t over think it.

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Crap. I didn’t disable my OLED’s “Dynamic Tone Mapping” in any of my testing.
In my defense… that’s why I had originally posted asking for recommendations on how to test.
Looks like I’ll be doing some cram-testing tonight.
Be sure to try different TV Types (you’ll probably stick to OLED, but just try it) and definitely test the HDR Optimizer & the Dynamic Range Adjustment slider. (Options remote button during playback).

SDR2020 and/or Optimizer and/or Dynamic Range Adjustment and/or Tone Mapping (TV Type) are the only reasons to own a UB820 so play with them all.
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post #4057 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 06:02 PM
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I agree completely, that’s why SDR2020 is so great. It behaves exactly like HD.

I know you’ve seen my UB820 settings guide. Just follow it and you’ll know your in SDR2020.

To be fair, almost all user manuals suck. Don’t over think it.
...
Yes, I'm following those.

On the manual - fair enough, but with this Panasonic optimizer we are dealing with a slew of new terms I do not have a clear definition of what they are and specifically what they mean, in terms of how it affects the curve, image, what they are supposed to do. Eg all the dynamic adjustment, white point, etc.
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post #4058 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
Yes, I'm following those.

On the manual - fair enough, but with this Panasonic optimizer we are dealing with a slew of new terms I do not have a clear definition of what they are and specifically what they mean, in terms of how it affects the curve, image, what they are supposed to do. Eg all the dynamic adjustment, white point, etc.
Good. You should see a considerable difference with SDR2020 vs HDR. Compare SDR2020 with Optimizer and Dynamic Range Adjustments vs HDR without those extra adjustments and you’ll see what most of us have dealt with. Be sure when comparing SDR2020 to HDR you are adjusting projector settings appropriately...for example, SDR2020 uses Gamma 2.4 whereas HDR should use some sort of “HDR” gamma curve built into your projector (I don’t know anything about Sony projectors).

I think part of the confusion is your getting thrown into the deep end immediately. Most of us dealt with another 4K player first and the struggles of our projectors to crap out “HDR” so going to the UB820 was a godsend.

Just play around a bit and see what happens.
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post #4059 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ibrewmination View Post
Not entirely sure what I am looking for with clipping. Is it detail washed out by excessively bright/solid color? I looked at the image on Altered Carbon, as I mentioned, that was discussed earlier in this thread, but didn't see anything out of the ordinary and detail seemed great.
To understand what's apparent with white clipping, think of seeing clouds in an otherwise deep blue sky on your display. If there's white clipping, then the clouds would be perceived as featureless (just an overall mass of white). However, there actually may be detail within the clouds which are hidden because of the clipping. The first 90 seconds of the 2nd episode of 'Altered Carbon' provide such a 'torture test' where there are several areas of bright light within the water, especially when the falling body enters the frame. Bubbles and other patterns are actually present in almost every frame, but if your display is clipping these areas will be featureless and bright white. I hope that helps you visualize........
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post #4060 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Good. You should see a considerable difference with SDR2020 vs HDR. Compare SDR2020 with Optimizer and Dynamic Range Adjustments vs HDR without those extra adjustments and you’ll see what most of us have dealt with. Be sure when comparing SDR2020 to HDR you are adjusting projector settings appropriately.

I think part of the confusion is your getting thrown into the deep end immediately. Most of us dealt with another 4K player first and the struggles of our projectors to crap out “HDR” so going to the UB820 was a godsend.

Just play around a bit and see what happens.
Yes, definitely in the deep end. My prior player (same projector) was the UB900, which of course I ran on HDR2020, and a custom gamma curve on the projector, HDR auto off, bt2020. I guess what is really confusing me is for the life of me I don't understand why when I have the 9000 on HDR 2020 out, basic luminance projector (so 350 nit max), optimizer on, the projector with hdr auto off, bt2020, gamma 2.4, the image looks washed out, faded, and looks better when I put the projector on the custom gamma curve. On that youtube video of Vincent he says he tested on projectors with it HDR2020 output.
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post #4061 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
what is really confusing me is for the life of me I don't understand why when I have the 9000 on HDR 2020 out, basic luminance projector (so 350 nit max), optimizer on, the projector with hdr auto off, bt2020, gamma 2.4, the image looks washed out, faded, and looks better when I put the projector on the custom gamma curve.
That part is easy. HDR (on the 900, 820 or whatever else) is designed to work with a HDR gamma curve, Gamma Normal, 2.2, 2.4, etc. will absolutely look washed out. ONLY for SDR2020 do you want to use Gamma 2.4. In both circumstances, use BT2020.
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post #4062 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 06:48 PM
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That part is easy. HDR (on the 900, 820 or whatever else) is designed to work with a HDR gamma curve, Gamma Normal, 2.2, 2.4, etc. will absolutely look washed out. ONLY for SDR2020 do you want to use Gamma 2.4. In both circumstances, use BT2020.
That makes sense, except that I was under the impression that the optimizer would them be imposing the gamma curve on the output. So putting the projector on a custom curve is doubling the gamma curves.

I just wonder why so many (including Vincent) have the HDR2020 out for projectors.
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post #4063 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 06:58 PM
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That makes sense, except that I was under the impression that the optimizer would them be imposing the gamma curve on the output. So putting the projector on a custom curve is doubling the gamma curves.
Nope. HDR gets an HDR curve. SDR gets a SDR curve. (I think what people are referring to is some displays that have auto tone mapping built in)
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I just wonder why so many (including Vincent) have the HDR2020 out for projectors.
Some of the newest projectors have enough juice to run HDR (like the NX7 or NX9) and even have tone mapping built in, some people have tiny screens and others get hung up on it having to say “HDR”. Try both and see what you like better. All that matters is that you like the image.

I had people trying to convince me for years that HDR looked good on my projector which I vehemently disagreed because my eyes work. A lot of them are now using a UB820 & SDR2020.
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Nope. HDR gets an HDR curve. SDR gets a SDR curve. (I think what people are referring to is some displays that have auto tone mapping built in)

Some of the newest projectors have enough juice to run HDR (like the NX7 or NX9), some people have tiny screens and others get hung up on it having to say “HDR”. Try both and see what you like better. All that matters is that you like the image.

I had people trying to convince me for years that HDR looked good on my projector which I vehemently disagreed because my eyes work. A lot of them are now using a UB820 & SDR2020.
OK, I am convinced. And I agree, my eyes tell me you are right - just so many other sources here and elsewhere say something I'm not seeing for a projector! I won't even bother with experimenting anymore on the HDR out on the Panasonic.

Honestly, HDR nit levels in a black projector room to me would be like being in the dark and having someone shine a 1000 lumen torch in your face, and trying to see who it was pointing the torch at you... Sure, the detail is all actually there, but my eyes won't allow me to see it unless I attenuate the brightness of the torch, or sticking my hand over the torch... I just like the color space and black detail.

The nx7 is 1900 lumen. My 675/550 will do 1800. To be honest, if or when I get a new projector, I won't be looking for more brightness though...
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post #4065 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 07:17 PM
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post #4066 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
Yes, definitely in the deep end. My prior player (same projector) was the UB900, which of course I ran on HDR2020, and a custom gamma curve on the projector, HDR auto off, bt2020. I guess what is really confusing me is for the life of me I don't understand why when I have the 9000 on HDR 2020 out, basic luminance projector (so 350 nit max), optimizer on, the projector with hdr auto off, bt2020, gamma 2.4, the image looks washed out, faded, and looks better when I put the projector on the custom gamma curve. On that youtube video of Vincent he says he tested on projectors with it HDR2020 output.
You cannot use a 2.4 gamma with the UB820 in HDR output mode. Gamma 2.4 is only valid for SDR/BT2020 output. That is why it is washed out.

When the UB820 is in HDR output mode it utilizes metadata values and HDR Display Type to tone map mostly the bright highlights that exceed the HDR Display Type equivalent in nits. The output is still PQ HDR and requires that the display perform its own tone mapping to complete the process. With projectors that means to apply an HDR Gamma curve to the input.
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post #4067 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 08:35 PM
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You cannot use a 2.4 gamma with the UB820 in HDR output mode. Gamma 2.4 is only valid for SDR/BT2020 output. That is why it is washed out.

When the UB820 is in HDR output mode it utilizes metadata values and HDR Display Type to tone map only the bright highlights that exceed the HDR Display Type equivalent in nits. The output is still PQ HDR and requires that the display perform its own tone mapping to complete the process. With projectors that means to apply an HDR Gamma curve to the input.
Ah right. So you would leave the projector on HDR auto, so it selects whatever gamma curve it uses for HDR? Or the old custom curve one was using prior?

Just so many spots initially before the sdr2020 showed up said hdr2020, gamma 2.4 so you aren't doubling up on tone mapping...
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Ah right. So you would leave the projector on HDR auto, so it selects whatever gamma curve it uses for HDR? Or the old custom curve one was using prior?

Just so many spots initially before the sdr2020 showed up said hdr2020, gamma 2.4 so you aren't doubling up on tone mapping...
If your using SDR2020 then set your projector to Gamma 2.4 & BT2020.
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
Yes, definitely in the deep end. My prior player (same projector) was the UB900, which of course I ran on HDR2020, and a custom gamma curve on the projector, HDR auto off, bt2020. I guess what is really confusing me is for the life of me I don't understand why when I have the 9000 on HDR 2020 out, basic luminance projector (so 350 nit max), optimizer on, the projector with hdr auto off, bt2020, gamma 2.4, the image looks washed out, faded, and looks better when I put the projector on the custom gamma curve. On that youtube video of Vincent he says he tested on projectors with it HDR2020 output.


Ive recently bought the 9000 and using the HDR 2020 basic luminance projector ( 350 nit ) HDR on Auto looks great on the Sony. Why havent you got it on HDR auto on the projector ? HDR has its own custom gamma curve. The only way I can change Gamma is by going SDR2020. But with 9000 there is no need to anymore the low luminance setting is great for projectors


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post #4070 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 09:11 PM
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Ive recently bought the 9000 and using the HDR 2020 basic luminance projector ( 350 nit ) HDR on Auto looks great on the Sony. Why havent you got it on HDR auto on the projector ? HDR has its own custom gamma curve. The only way I can change Gamma is by going SDR2020. But with 9000 there is no need to anymore the low luminance setting is great for projectors


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I guess it goes back to my pre 9000 usage and all advise. The sony projector HDR gamma curve is not well regarded and somewhat an unknown, so you are better off running with a custom gamma curve.

Plus I thought with the 90000 it would mean I would be doubling up on a gamma curve
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I guess it goes back to my pre 9000 usage and all advise. The sony projector HDR gamma curve is not well regarded and somewhat an unknown, so you are better off running with a custom gamma curve.



Plus I thought with the 90000 it would mean I would be doubling up on a gamma curve


Not sure which Sony your talking about before i bought the Panasonic i tried it on a 670es ( the only one they had at the store ) and it looked great with those settings.


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Ive recently bought the 9000 and using the HDR 2020 basic luminance projector ( 350 nit ) HDR on Auto looks great on the Sony. Why havent you got it on HDR auto on the projector ? HDR has its own custom gamma curve. The only way I can change Gamma is by going SDR2020. But with 9000 there is no need to anymore the low luminance setting is great for projectors
The UB9000 in HDR with TV Type set to “Basic Luminance Projector” should look pretty good. I’d like to see some comparisons between SDR2020/Gamma 2.4 and HDR/HDR Gamma set to Basic Luminance Projector.

I thought @MOberhardt had a UB820, if he has a UB9000, he should absolutely try HDR/HDR Gamma (Auto or whatever the Sony uses) with TV Type set to Basic Luminance Projector.

@MOberhardt , do you have a UB820 or a UB9000?
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Not sure which Sony your talking about before i bought the Panasonic i tried it on a 670es ( the only one they had at the store ) and it looked great with those settings.


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I've an older 675es (it was superceded this year). But it is widespread on most of the sony threads. Any ISF turing of a home theater projector will have the ISF tech putting a custom tuned gamma curve on it, I believe. When I was using the Panasonic 900, the older model than this one, without the Optimizer, the custom gamma curve was definitely better than the internal HDR one.
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
The UB9000 in HDR with TV Type set to “Basic Luminance Projector” should look pretty good. I’d like to see some comparisons between SDR2020/Gamma 2.4 and HDR/HDR Gamma set to Basic Luminance Projector.



I thought @MOberhardt had a UB820, if he has a UB9000, he should absolutely try HDR/HDR Gamma (Auto or whatever the Sony uses) with TV Type set to Basic Luminance Projector.


I agree, I have the UB820 and on Sat just purchased the 9000 and i have to say the picture on low luminance ( 350 nit ) is a God - Send it does an amazing Job on my Sony.


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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
The UB9000 in HDR with TV Type set to “Basic Luminance Projector” should look pretty good. I’d like to see some comparisons between SDR2020/Gamma 2.4 and HDR/HDR Gamma set to Basic Luminance Projector.

I thought @MOberhardt had a UB820, if he has a UB9000, he should absolutely try HDR/HDR Gamma (Auto or whatever the Sony uses) with TV Type set to Basic Luminance Projector.

@MOberhardt , do you have a UB820 or a UB9000?
A 9000. That said, a 350nit is more than a 675es will output. Isn't that what the Basic Limunance Projector is on the Panasonic?

I'll give it a go!

It would be great if it was easier to change these settings on the fly on the Panasonic. It is pretty easy on the projector.

I might put some HDR2020 video only on a USB stick... Might be quicker than a UHD and menus...
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Official Panasonic DP-UB820/824 Owner's Thread (No Price Talk)

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I've an older 675es (it was superceded this year). But it is widespread on most of the sony threads. Any ISF turing of a home theater projector will have the ISF tech putting a custom tuned gamma curve on it, I believe. When I was using the Panasonic 900, the older model than this one, without the Optimizer, the custom gamma curve was definitely better than the internal HDR one.


I know the new range of Sony’s have had the tone map fixed but still not as good as the panny.

I reckon if you don’t have the panny yeah definitely do a custom curve.

But by by saying all this if your not happy on HDR looks do the SDR2020 that still looks great as well. I reckon a couple of years will have this all figured out this bloody HDR.


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post #4077 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
A 9000. That said, a 350nit is more than a 675es will output. Isn't that what the Basic Limunance Projector is on the Panasonic?

I'll give it a go!

It would be great if it was easier to change these settings on the fly on the Panasonic. It is pretty easy on the projector.

I might put some HDR2020 video only on a USB stick... Might be quicker than a UHD and menus...
Use a disc to avoid variables. It’s a good idea for you to compare HDR 350 nits to SDR2020. Be sure the Sony is set right for each for a correct comparison. (HDR Auto or whatever for HDR...Gamma 2.4 for SDR2020).

I personally want to see the difference between SDR2020 and 350 nits HDR. I’m hoping I’ll be able to demo a UB9000 or see some camera settings-locked photo comparisons.
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post #4078 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Use a disc to avoid variables. It’s a good idea for you to compare HDR 350 nits to SDR2020. Be sure the Sony is set right for each for a correct comparison. (HDR Auto or whatever for HDR...Gamma 2.4 for SDR2020)
OK cheers. I'll use Mad Max. I think the disc has resume and the point I have at the moment is the infamous sandstorm with the 9000+ nit highlights...

It'd be nice to just flip A=B-A-B etc in a matter of seconds to compare!!! But I guess what I'm looking for is black detail and clipping. I know I'm not getting clipping in sdr2020 output...

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Originally Posted by Franin View Post
I know the new range of Sony’s have had the tone map fixed but still not as good as the panny.

I reckon if you don’t have the panny yeah definitely do a custom curve.

But by by saying all this if your not happy on HDR looks do the SDR2020 that still looks great as well. I reckon a couple of years will have this all figured out this bloody HDR.


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Amen to them fixing it up! I eon't get another projector until it is as simple and painless as my first 1080p setup :P

Ah right so the new Sonys have fixed their tone mapping. That is good to hear.
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post #4079 of 5177 Old 04-15-2019, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post

Ah right so the new Sonys have fixed their tone mapping. That is good to hear.


That is what is ive been told by Sony representatives in Australia.
This is going to be a learning curve for all projector manufacturers and im sure in a few years time they will get it right but until then thank God for Panasonic with their optimzer


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post #4080 of 5177 Old 04-16-2019, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
Ah right. So you would leave the projector on HDR auto, so it selects whatever gamma curve it uses for HDR? Or the old custom curve one was using prior?

Just so many spots initially before the sdr2020 showed up said hdr2020, gamma 2.4 so you aren't doubling up on tone mapping...
I can't suggest which is better; your projector's HDR Auto mode or your custom curve. But you should not get washed out color with either.

Yes, with the Panasonic player set to HDR output and the Optimizer turned ON, you will be applying tone mapping in both the player and in the projector. The only way to avoid that is SDR/BT2020 mode. Up to you to decide which you like better:

- Panasonic HDR mode with Optimizer turned ON + HDR Auto or Custom curve in projector.
- Panasonic SDR/BT2020 mode with Optimizer turned ON + Gamma 2.4 in projector.
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