Official Panasonic DP-UB820/824 Owner's Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 137 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 4814Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #4081 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 09:48 AM
Member
 
ibrewmination's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Bremerton, WA
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibrewmination View Post
Though I’ve watched the video before (once some time before I purchased my players) I missed the results of clipping. Thanks.
Crap. I didn’t disable my OLED’s “Dynamic Tone Mapping” in any of my testing.
In my defense… that’s why I had originally posted asking for recommendations on how to test.
Looks like I’ll be doing some cram-testing tonight.
So… I’ll try t.v. with tone-mapping off and 820s HDR optimization on.
I’ll compare that against the t.v. tone-mapping “on” while playing the LG UBK90.
I’ll also mix several combinations of the two.
But he does wrap it up in the end and say that you will see less results from a lower luminance display.
So, I guess I’m also seeing why you find it irritating, @MOberhardt .
So, to view the Altered Carbon scene, I had to disable Dolby Atmos before turning on the HDR Optimizer. Also, my t.v., the LG OLEDB7P does not contain a "Dynamic Tone Mapping" setting in the menu. "Dynamic Contrast" is the closest thing I can find, but without being sure I didn't mess with it.
I did notice a definite difference in the detail between the two players on Altered Carbon, but I don't know how much of that can be chaulked up to difference in the actual utilization of the app, as the overall quality appeared to be lower on the UBK90.
I looked at the spiderman beginning with Columbia Pictures Lady Liberty in view, and with HDR "on" I could see the grid-pattern faintly in the torch whereas when I turned it off, it got washed out (clipped?).
I could see the pattern equally on the UBK90 when changing the setting to "Custom" but without making any adjustments to the actual settings. Though, it would seem Tone-mapping has a bit more to do with an algorithm than just sliding contrast, brightness, and color up and down???
It did appear as if Hobbit was a bit clearer (on the UB820) as well.
I did not get the opportunity to rent BR2049.
The expiration date for returning the LG UBK90 is up, so looks like I'm stuck with returning the UB820 unless Best Buy lets me return it (the UBK90) anyway. Either way, if nothing else, now I am curious and will conduct a few more tests before sending it (either one) back.
Yes... this is a pain.

ATMOS 5.1.4 - KEF Q700 - Q600C - Q100 - KEF Ci160CL(x4-in-ceiling) - Rythmik FV15HP - Marantz SR7012 - LG OLED65B7P - Panasonic DP-UB820 - Roku Ultra
ibrewmination is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4082 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 09:52 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
claw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: L'Etoile du Nord
Posts: 2,825
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2212 Post(s)
Liked: 2067
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibrewmination View Post
So, to view the Altered Carbon scene, I had to disable Dolby Atmos before turning on the HDR Optimizer. Also, my t.v., the LG OLEDB7P does not contain a "Dynamic Tone Mapping" setting in the menu. "Dynamic Contrast" is the closest thing I can find, but without being sure I didn't mess with it.
I did notice a definite difference in the detail between the two players on Altered Carbon, but I don't know how much of that can be chaulked up to difference in the actual utilization of the app, as the overall quality appeared to be lower on the UBK90.
I looked at the spiderman beginning with Columbia Pictures Lady Liberty in view, and with HDR "on" I could see the grid-pattern faintly in the torch whereas when I turned it off, it got washed out (clipped?).
I could see the pattern equally on the UBK90 when changing the setting to "Custom" but without making any adjustments to the actual settings. Though, it would seem Tone-mapping has a bit more to do with an algorithm than just sliding contrast, brightness, and color up and down???
It did appear as if Hobbit was a bit clearer (on the UB820) as well.
I did not get the opportunity to rent BR2049.
The expiration date for returning the LG UBK90 is up, so looks like I'm stuck with returning the UB820 unless Best Buy lets me return it (the UBK90) anyway. Either way, if nothing else, now I am curious and will conduct a few more tests before sending it (either one) back.
Yes... this is a pain.
In the LG 7 series, setting Dynamic Contrast to Low is the same as the Dynamic Tone Mapping setting in the 8 series. LG added Dynamic Tone Mapping to the 7 but didn't add a new setting for it.
ibrewmination likes this.

CJ
JVC RS500|LG B7A OLED|Denon X6400H/X4200W|Panasonic UB820|Two Oppo 203|Samsung K8500|Apple TV 4K|HDfury Vertex/Linker/Integral
claw is offline  
post #4083 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 09:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dreamliner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,089
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1368 Post(s)
Liked: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibrewmination View Post
The expiration date for returning the LG UBK90 is up, so looks like I'm stuck with returning the UB820 unless Best Buy lets me return it (the UBK90) anyway. Either way, if nothing else, now I am curious and will conduct a few more tests before sending it (either one) back.
Yes... this is a pain.
The UB820 only makes sense if you take advantage of the SDR2020 and/or Optimizer and/or Dynamic Range Adjustment Slider and/or Tone Mapping functions. If you got the UB820 at Best Buy also they will probably take back the UBK90 if you ask very nicely and point out the reason your returning is because you bought a more expensive player from them (bring the UB820 receipt).
ibrewmination likes this.

Last edited by Dreamliner; 04-16-2019 at 10:51 AM.
Dreamliner is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4084 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 10:04 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
asharma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,015
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1623 Post(s)
Liked: 497
A few questions

Hey folks

1) what the hec should high clarity sound be set to for watching movies? I read a few previous posts and am still totally confused

2) I’m running a 1000 not Sony 85” tv and want to confirm I’m using the 820”s tone mapping properly...HDR/colour gamut is set to Auto, HDR tv type is set to middle or high luminance, and HDR optimizer is on...In this config, the 820 performs the tone mapping, Correct? Or does the tv do the tone mapping and the Optimizer deals with anything above what the tv can’t tone map and for the Panny to do the TMapping it needs to be set to SDR/BT2020...

When watching the sand storm seen in Mad Max, the optimizer does make a difference but I can still see clipping in some of the explosion shots...I “thought” the optimizer would TM the >1000 nit frames down to something that would not show clipping...Am I missing something or is it still expected to clip or are my settings correct...

3) can I turn off instead of dim the 820’s front display?

4) during quiet scenes, I can hear the disc spinning sitting 12 feet away...very distracting...is this normal?

Thanks folks
anwsmh likes this.

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820
Triple black velvet bat cave

Last edited by asharma; 04-16-2019 at 03:54 PM.
asharma is online now  
post #4085 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 02:09 PM
Advanced Member
 
MOberhardt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 939
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 701 Post(s)
Liked: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
I can't suggest which is better; your projector's HDR Auto mode or your custom curve. But you should not get washed out color with either.

Yes, with the Panasonic player set to HDR output and the Optimizer turned ON, you will be applying tone mapping in both the player and in the projector. The only way to avoid that is SDR/BT2020 mode. Up to you to decide which you like better:

- Panasonic HDR mode with Optimizer turned ON + HDR Auto or Custom curve in projector.
- Panasonic SDR/BT2020 mode with Optimizer turned ON + Gamma 2.4 in projector.
Yes, it'd be great if I could quickly toggle and compare...

From prior investigation and experience, I am a bit wary of the 675es mapping. But having the projector on hdr auto would probably simplify color space selection when watching SDR material...
MOberhardt is offline  
post #4086 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 02:52 PM
Member
 
ibrewmination's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Bremerton, WA
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
The UB820 only makes sense if you take advantage of the SDR2020 and/or Optimizer and/or Dynamic Range Adjustment Slider and/or Tone Mapping functions. If you got the UB820 at Best Buy also they will probably take back the UBK90 if you ask very nicely and point out the reason your returning is because you bought a more expensive player from them (bring the UB820 receipt).
That's pretty much what I was thinking with the return... yes, I got them both at Best Buy. So I have another 9 days before the deadline for returning the UB820.
That should give me time to narrow down whether the Tone Mapping functions of the UB820 warrant the price leap without being made irrelevant by the "tone-mapping" of the t.v. itself. That, and getting away from the UBK's random hijaking of the AVR. Think it is going to take some pretty significant differences, but I'm willing to give it a fair shot. I certainly won't be needing the SDR2020, and I'm not sure that I've seen the Dynamic Range Adjustment Slider yet. I've pretty much only messed with the Tone Mapping, with the t.v.'s "tone-mapping" turned off.
I guess I don't, honestly, know enough of what I don't know in order to assess whether I'll be using any of the other functions, other than SDR2020, that you're talking about. All I know is that I want the best picture possible without going too terribly upside-down in the return/cost ratio.
I would say there is a certain element of future-proofing involved in the equation, but the gliches I've seen in the UB820 give serious cause for concern for the life expectancy of said player. Though not quite apples to apples, I want to say both Panasonic HTIBs I've owned before lasted around four-and-a-half to five years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
In the LG 7 series, setting Dynamic Contrast to Low is the same as the Dynamic Tone Mapping setting in the 8 series. LG added Dynamic Tone Mapping to the 7 but didn't add a new setting for it.
Thanks for that. That was my suspicion. I had turned that setting off in most, if not all, of my t.v. inputs shortly after purchasing my OLED before I'd heard of tone mapping based on an article I read (I think in rtings.com). This seems clunky. So what's it doing if I increase the level of "Dynamic Contrast"? Is it lowering the effective nit-rating adjustment of the display (i.e. treating it as 700 nits, 400 nits, etc. as opposed to 1000)?
Th601 likes this.

ATMOS 5.1.4 - KEF Q700 - Q600C - Q100 - KEF Ci160CL(x4-in-ceiling) - Rythmik FV15HP - Marantz SR7012 - LG OLED65B7P - Panasonic DP-UB820 - Roku Ultra

Last edited by ibrewmination; 04-16-2019 at 03:13 PM.
ibrewmination is offline  
post #4087 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 02:56 PM
Member
 
Th601's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibrewmination View Post
That's pretty much what I was thinking with the return... yes, I got them both at Best Buy. So I have another 9 days before the deadline for returning the UB820.

That should give me time to narrow down whether the Tone Mapping functions of the UB820 warrant the price leap without being made irrelevant by the "tone-mapping" of the t.v. itself. That, and getting away from the UBK's random hijaking of the AVR. Think it is going to take some pretty significant differences, but I'm willing to give it a fair shot. I certainly won't be needing the SDR2020, and I'm not sure that I've seen the Dynamic Range Adjustment Slider yet. I've pretty much only messed with the Tone Mapping, with the t.v.'s "tone-mapping" turned off.

I guess I don't, honestly, know enough of what I don't know in order to assess whether I'll be using any of the other functions, other than SDR2020, that you're talking about. All I know is that I want the best picture possible without going too terribly upside-down in the return/cost ratio.

I would say there is a certain element of future-proofing involved in the equation, but the gliches I've seen in the UB820 give serious cause for concern for the life expectancy of said player. I want to say both Panasonic HTIBs I've owned before lasted around four-and-a-half to five years.





Thanks for that. That was my suspicion. I had turned that setting off in most, if not all, of my t.v. inputs shortly after purchasing my OLED based on an rtings post, I think, before I'd heard of tone mapping based on an article I read (I think in rtings.com). This seems clunky. So what's it doing if I increase the level of "Dynamic Contrast"? Is it lowering the effective nit-rating of the display adustment?


That’s why I turned mine off also. Because of rtings suggested settings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Th601 is offline  
post #4088 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 03:24 PM
Member
 
ibrewmination's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Bremerton, WA
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Th601 View Post
That’s why I turned mine off also. Because of rtings suggested settings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think a good test to see whether that has done more harm than good (I suspect the former) would be to go to that 47 second mark of episode 2 of Altered Carbon and see what that does to the level of detail. At first when I was testing that scene with the players, I was looking at the brightest plume in the surface of the water where the woman's body entered.
However, I realized I saw the most easily identifiable clarity difference in the shading in the side profile of her face. I'm uncertain that clarity of detail is tied to tone-mapping... but it was telling all the same. Noticing that clarity in the UB820 is what made me begin to consider keeping it.
Alas... that could, again, be a function of the Netflix app.
Have to do some more standardized testing with a good DVD this weekend.

ATMOS 5.1.4 - KEF Q700 - Q600C - Q100 - KEF Ci160CL(x4-in-ceiling) - Rythmik FV15HP - Marantz SR7012 - LG OLED65B7P - Panasonic DP-UB820 - Roku Ultra
ibrewmination is offline  
post #4089 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 03:36 PM
Senior Member
 
shs1234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Central Sierra Nevada
Posts: 326
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 199 Post(s)
Liked: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibrewmination View Post
I think a good test to see whether that has done more harm than good (I suspect the former) would be to go to that 47 second mark of episode 2 of Altered Carbon and see what that does to the level of detail. At first when I was testing that scene with the players, I was looking at the brightest plume in the surface of the water where the woman's body entered.
However, I realized I saw the most easily identifiable clarity difference in the shading in the side profile of her face. I'm uncertain that clarity of detail is tied to tone-mapping... but it was telling all the same. Noticing that clarity in the UB820 is what made me begin to consider keeping it.
Alas... that could, again, be a function of the Netflix app.
Have to do some more standardized testing with a good DVD this weekend.
I used the Wonder Woman UHD DVD to test for clipping of whites/highlights. After Steve's plane crashes in the water, he is sinking and looking back at the surface, without the Optimizer ON (SDR2020 mode) the detail at the surface was definitely blown out, but the detail was restored with the Optimizer On. Also near the end when she is having an epic battle with the bad guy (trying to avoid spoilers) the lightning bolts are blown out without the Optimizer On.
ibrewmination likes this.

SONY VPL-VW385ES, Da-Lite 92" 0.9 HD progressive 16x9 screen, Apple TV 4K, HDFury Integral 2, Oppo UDP 203, Panasonic DP-UB820, Anthem AVM 60, D-Sonic 4000 (800x3, 400x4) for bed layer, 2 Crown XLS 1002 (225x4) for Atmos; Speakers: Polk LSiM 705s, 703 front, 4 702F/X surround, 4 Polk TL3 (Atmos), Dual Velodyne DD15 Subwoofers.
shs1234 is offline  
post #4090 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 03:59 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dreamliner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,089
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1368 Post(s)
Liked: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibrewmination View Post
That should give me time to narrow down whether the Tone Mapping functions of the UB820 warrant the price leap without being made irrelevant by the "tone-mapping" of the t.v. itself.
Be sure to try a few titles.

These are the 4 settings for you to play with. The disc playback options are what you’ll be most interested in. This is a snippet from my UB820 set up guide (written to get projector owners squared away with SDR2020):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
On the UB820:
Settings>HDMI>Advanced>HDR/Color Gamut Output>SDR/BT.2020
Settings>HDMI>Advanced>HDR/Color Gamut Output>HDR TV Type>Basic Luminance LCD and Projector

On the UB820 During 4K Disc Playback:
Options (remote button)>Video Settings>Optimum HDR Adjustment>HDR Optimizer>On (preference)
Options (remote button)>Video Settings>Optimum HDR Adjustment>Dynamic Range Conversion Adjustment>+4 to +8 (preference)

Regarding HDR Optimizer, you lose some brightness but gain detail in explosions and similar. I started with this off but now have it on. Dynamic Range Conversion Adjustment will depend a lot on your screen size, bigger screens will want more. I have left the other settings at defaults (so far).
Dreamliner is online now  
post #4091 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 04:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,425
Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4483 Post(s)
Liked: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by shs1234 View Post
I used the Wonder Woman UHD DVD to test for clipping of whites/highlights. After Steve's plane crashes in the water, he is sinking and looking back at the surface, without the Optimizer ON (SDR2020 mode) the detail at the surface was definitely blown out, but
It would not make sense to use SDR2020 with Optimizer turned off, unless the maximum luminance of the movie is known to be less than 1000 nits (the default setting used by the UB820).
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #4092 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 04:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
asharma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,015
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1623 Post(s)
Liked: 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Hey folks

1) what the hec should high clarity sound be set to for watching movies? I read a few previous posts and am still totally confused

2) I’m running a 1000 not Sony 85” tv and want to confirm I’m using the 820”s tone mapping properly...HDR/colour gamut is set to Auto, HDR tv type is set to middle or high luminance, and HDR optimizer is on...In this config, the 820 performs the tone mapping, Correct? Or does the tv do the tone mapping and the Optimizer deals with anything above what the tv can’t tone map and for the Panny to do the TMapping it needs to be set to SDR/BT2020...

When watching the sand storm seen in Mad Max, the optimizer does make a difference but I can still see clipping in some of the explosion shots...I “thought” the optimizer would TM the >1000 nit frames down to something that would not show clipping...Am I missing something or is it still expected to clip or are my settings correct...

3) can I turn off instead of dim the 820’s front display?

4) during quiet scenes, I can hear the disc spinning sitting 12 feet away...very distracting...is this normal?

Thanks folks
Any feedback would be hugely appreciated folks...thanks

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820
Triple black velvet bat cave
asharma is online now  
post #4093 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 06:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,425
Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4483 Post(s)
Liked: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Hey folks

1) what the hec should high clarity sound be set to for watching movies? I read a few previous posts and am still totally confused

2) I’m running a 1000 not Sony 85” tv and want to confirm I’m using the 820”s tone mapping properly...HDR/colour gamut is set to Auto, HDR tv type is set to middle or high luminance, and HDR optimizer is on...In this config, the 820 performs the tone mapping, Correct? Or does the tv do the tone mapping and the Optimizer deals with anything above what the tv can’t tone map and for the Panny to do the TMapping it needs to be set to SDR/BT2020...

When watching the sand storm seen in Mad Max, the optimizer does make a difference but I can still see clipping in some of the explosion shots...I “thought” the optimizer would TM the >1000 nit frames down to something that would not show clipping...Am I missing something or is it still expected to clip or are my settings correct...

3) can I turn off instead of dim the 820’s front display?

4) during quiet scenes, I can hear the disc spinning sitting 12 feet away...very distracting...is this normal?

Thanks folks
1), 3). You can set up High Clarity Sound to turn off the front panel display when playing movies

2). This has been discussed extensively. In the HDR mode with Optimizer On, the UB820 tone maps the source material down to the display setting level (e.g., 1000 nits) and sets the metadata accordingly. The TV does whatever it’s designed to do when receiving 1000 nits - either nothing, or additional tone mapping.
MOberhardt, asharma and Dreamliner like this.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #4094 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 08:04 PM
Advanced Member
 
MOberhardt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 939
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 701 Post(s)
Liked: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
1), 3). You can set up High Clarity Sound to turn off the front panel display when playing movies

2). This has been discussed extensively. In the HDR mode with Optimizer On, the UB820 tone maps the source material down to the display setting level (e.g., 1000 nits) and sets the metadata accordingly. The TV does whatever it’s designed to do when receiving 1000 nits - either nothing, or additional tone mapping.
Ah gee that is great - I didn't know that high clarity sound would turn off the display! I was wondering how to do that.

BTW, does anyone what you would do on the panasonic (optimizer wise) when you have one of those discs where the metadata is wrong? Eg, The Meg is I think 4000 nit, but incorrectly tagged as 1000 nit in the metadata. The Panasonic does seem to show (detect?) Max nits, but not sure if it uses that for mapping.
EDIT: Just found the post regarding this - and reading it, I think I'm better off sticking with SDR2020 on the projector if there are problem discs like this and other discs, like Rampage!
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=191

Last edited by MOberhardt; 04-16-2019 at 08:50 PM.
MOberhardt is offline  
post #4095 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 09:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Dreamliner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,089
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1368 Post(s)
Liked: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
Ah gee that is great - I didn't know that high clarity sound would turn off the display!
Neither did I. Dominic Chan...what a guy!
MOberhardt likes this.
Dreamliner is online now  
post #4096 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 09:50 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 208
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Bought my 820 today. Looking forward to using it.

Interestingly the AV specialist I bought from said that Oppo, Samsung, and Sony have pulled out from making UHD players so it won’t be long before everything is non disc. Thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dandlj is online now  
post #4097 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 11:06 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
claw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: L'Etoile du Nord
Posts: 2,825
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2212 Post(s)
Liked: 2067
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibrewmination View Post

Thanks for that. That was my suspicion. I had turned that setting off in most, if not all, of my t.v. inputs shortly after purchasing my OLED before I'd heard of tone mapping based on an article I read (I think in rtings.com). This seems clunky. So what's it doing if I increase the level of "Dynamic Contrast"? Is it lowering the effective nit-rating adjustment of the display (i.e. treating it as 700 nits, 400 nits, etc. as opposed to 1000)?
I think only Low is Dynamic Tone Mapping. You would have to ask in the 7 series thread. It might be clunky but I am glad they found a way to add it to the 7 series with a firmware update.
ibrewmination likes this.

CJ
JVC RS500|LG B7A OLED|Denon X6400H/X4200W|Panasonic UB820|Two Oppo 203|Samsung K8500|Apple TV 4K|HDfury Vertex/Linker/Integral
claw is offline  
post #4098 of 5093 Old 04-16-2019, 11:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
asharma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,015
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1623 Post(s)
Liked: 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
1), 3). You can set up High Clarity Sound to turn off the front panel display when playing movies

2). This has been discussed extensively. In the HDR mode with Optimizer On, the UB820 tone maps the source material down to the display setting level (e.g., 1000 nits) and sets the metadata accordingly. The TV does whatever it’s designed to do when receiving 1000 nits - either nothing, or additional tone mapping.
Thanks Dom...what happens when the player is in hdr mode, optimizer off? I’m assuming the player still does the TMapping? I really don’t like what the optimizer is doing and I think I prefer it off...I’m finding on 4000 nit titles the optimizer softens and dims the explosions etc but they are still blown...If they are still going to be blown, I’d prefer sharper, bright blown highlights...

Also what setting causes only the tv to do the TMapping and not the Panny or does the Panny always do the TMapping? In reality, when the Panny is in HDR auto mode, does the tv ever do the TMapping or is the TMapping always done on the Panny? When I think about this I’m not sure if the tv ever does any TMapping as it should always be done on the incoming device...Correct?

I “think” I’m now getting this...the real plus of the 820 is to Tmap HDR to SDR bt2020 for nit starved displays and then remap the highlights with the optimizer...I’m not really seeing the benefit of the 820 on a 1000 nit tv...Am I understanding correctly?

Edit: just read Kris Deerings review again, still not much clearer...I see the benefit for projectors but am trying to understand the benefit for a1000 nit display...I’m unsure if there is much difference than my $199 Sony 700 player...

Edit 2: just reread Kris’s review AGAIN...perhaps for non nit starved displays there is “some” benefit to telling the Panny you are using a 1000 nit display so it tone maps accordingly...the review also mentions with the optimizer on, the panny changes the meta data to the tv and some displays handle it well and some don’t and it will be a personal preference...

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820
Triple black velvet bat cave

Last edited by asharma; 04-17-2019 at 04:58 AM.
asharma is online now  
post #4099 of 5093 Old 04-17-2019, 04:40 AM
Advanced Member
 
MOberhardt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 939
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 701 Post(s)
Liked: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandlj View Post
Bought my 820 today. Looking forward to using it.

Interestingly the AV specialist I bought from said that Oppo, Samsung, and Sony have pulled out from making UHD players so it won’t be long before everything is non disc. Thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I hope not. Streaming is garbage and for av enthusiasts like myself, so for me any over compressed network dependent format is just not of any interest, except for average quality tv shows. I'm not interested in fighting rubbish streaming hardware and having Russian roulette for quality. I've never bothered with 4k Netflix, as hd is bad enough.

If however they had services that were secure digital libraries of the same quality as uhd, that I could download in advance I may be interested, but still only if I couldn't get disc.

You can still buy CDs. I still buy CDs.
smitty, Dandlj and ibrewmination like this.
MOberhardt is offline  
post #4100 of 5093 Old 04-17-2019, 04:49 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,425
Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4483 Post(s)
Liked: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Thanks Dom...what happens when the player is in hdr mode, optimizer off? I’m assuming the player still does the TMapping? I really don’t like what the optimizer is doing and I think I prefer it off...I’m finding on 4000 nit titles the optimizer softens and dims the explosions etc but they are still blown...If they are still going to be blown, I’d prefer sharper, bright blown highlights...

Also what setting causes only the tv to do the TMapping and not the Panny or does the Panny always do the TMapping?
Optimizer off in HDR mode means no tone mapping. See this post for details:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...l#post57863808
Quote:

In reality, when the Panny is in HDR auto mode, does the tv ever do the TMapping or is the TMapping always done on the Panny?
The TV will do its own “thing”, see the post I quoted.

Quote:
When I think about this I’m not sure if the tv ever does any TMapping as it should always be done on the incoming device...Correct?
See my previous reply to you, post 4093.

Quote:
I “think” I’m now getting this...the real plus of the 820 is to Tmap HDR to SDR bt2020 for nit starved displays and then remap the highlights with the optimizer...I’m not really seeing the benefit of the 820 on a 1000 nit tv...Am I understanding correctly?
There are people who like the results of Optimizer + 1000 nit TV.
asharma likes this.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 04-17-2019 at 04:55 AM.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #4101 of 5093 Old 04-17-2019, 05:05 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,425
Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4483 Post(s)
Liked: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
BTW, does anyone what you would do on the panasonic (optimizer wise) when you have one of those discs where the metadata is wrong? Eg, The Meg is I think 4000 nit, but incorrectly tagged as 1000 nit in the metadata. The Panasonic does seem to show (detect?) Max nits, but not sure if it uses that for mapping.
If the metadata is wrong then the Panasonic will be doing the wrong tone-mapping.

Quote:
EDIT: Just found the post regarding this - and reading it, I think I'm better off sticking with SDR2020 on the projector if there are problem discs like this and other discs, like Rampage!
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=191
SDR2020 won’t solve the wrong metadata problem, so in those cases you might as well turn off tone-mapping in the Panasonic, and set the TV manually to tone-map at the correct level. Some TVs will do the mapping based on the actual content and not the metadata.
MOberhardt likes this.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 04-17-2019 at 05:20 AM.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #4102 of 5093 Old 04-17-2019, 05:08 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
asharma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,015
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1623 Post(s)
Liked: 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Optimizer off in HDR mode means no tone mapping. See this post for details:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...l#post57863808
The TV will do its own “thing”, see the post I quoted.


See my previous reply to you, post 4093.


There are people who like the results of Optimizer + 1000 nit TV.
Thanks man, thanks for that link to Claw’s post...much clearer now...I wasn’t aware with the optimizer off, no TMapping was performed on the 820 and the tv did it all...I need to do more testing but I’m not liking what the optimizer is doing...as an example, there are a couple pure white scenes in Batman vs Superman...the optimizer really dims them...

Not sure I’m going to see the benefit of the 820 if I prefer the optimizer off... ☹️

Edit: it might be clearer as to what’s actually happening if in the user interface of the Panny, the choice of Display type was greyed out if the Optimizer is turned off...that would immediately tell me no TMapping is being done with Optimiser off...

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820
Triple black velvet bat cave

Last edited by asharma; 04-17-2019 at 05:22 AM.
asharma is online now  
post #4103 of 5093 Old 04-17-2019, 09:16 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
atabea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,631
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 753 Post(s)
Liked: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Here are two 500nit curves I whipped out quickly, in both .conf and .jgd formats. They should only be used in conjunction with the UB820 Optimizer outputting 500 nits. The hc version follow the PQ curve up to 500 nits and clips beyond that; it has no tone mapping at all. The sc version is brighter than the hc version (lower scale factor), and some mild tone mapping between 300 and 500 nits. I haven't tested them extensively, but they do generally behave as I expect.
Hi Dominic,

I downloaded your 500 nit curves but haven't had the chance to install/try them in conjunction with the UB820 Optimizer. I was wondering if you have done any critical comparison of these curves + UB820 optimizer outputting 500 nits with UB820/SDR 2020/ optimizer/2.4 gamma? I hope to get some time over the Easter weekend to check them out.
atabea is offline  
post #4104 of 5093 Old 04-17-2019, 10:48 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
asharma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,015
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1623 Post(s)
Liked: 497
Optimizer with 1000 nit tv

Gotta say folks, I’m not that crazy about the Panny TMapping for my TV...YMMV...I’ve been testing with BVSS, a 4000 nit title...with explosions etc, the optimizer tends to dim and soften the explosion, losing detail, while still remaining blown...part of the reason I bought a 1000 nit tv was so I would be blinded with hdr...if the Panny TMapping is going still have the explosion blown, I’d rather have the explosion bright, blown and with detail...

There are instances where if the explosion is marginally >1000 nits, the Panny TMapping brings it in line...perhaps like a scene in Pan with the sun in the background...

I can see the benefit for SDR2020 projectors with the Optimizer on but am really questioning the value for a high nit tv...just my 2 cents worth, again YMMV...

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820
Triple black velvet bat cave
asharma is online now  
post #4105 of 5093 Old 04-17-2019, 11:10 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,425
Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4483 Post(s)
Liked: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by atabea View Post
I was wondering if you have done any critical comparison of these curves + UB820 optimizer outputting 500 nits with UB820/SDR 2020/ optimizer/2.4 gamma?
I haven’t done a lot of testing. It was mostly a “proof of concept”, confirming that there will be no clipping even if the projector performs no tone mapping, hard clipping at 500 nits.

In both cases only the UB820 is doing the tone mapping. I feel that I have more control over the final result with this approach - the UB820 tone-maps the highlights but leaves the image untouched (diffuse white and below). With SDR2020 I have no idea how the UB820 does its tone mapping, especially since it does not take into consideration the peak nits of the display.
Clark Burk, MOberhardt and atabea like this.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #4106 of 5093 Old 04-17-2019, 03:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
atabea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,631
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 753 Post(s)
Liked: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I haven’t done a lot of testing. It was mostly a “proof of concept”, confirming that there will be no clipping even if the projector performs no tone mapping, hard clipping at 500 nits.

In both cases only the UB820 is doing the tone mapping. I feel that I have more control over the final result with this approach - the UB820 tone-maps the highlights but leaves the image untouched (diffuse white and below). With SDR2020 I have no idea how the UB820 does its tone mapping, especially since it does not take into consideration the peak nits of the display.
That's a very interesting approach, Dominic. Can't wait to give it a go. Just wish I had a vertex to prevent any unnecessary switching to the dreaded gamma D.
atabea is offline  
post #4107 of 5093 Old 04-17-2019, 04:32 PM
Advanced Member
 
MOberhardt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 939
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 701 Post(s)
Liked: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If the metadata is wrong then the Panasonic will be doing the wrong tone-mapping.


SDR2020 won’t solve the wrong metadata problem, so in those cases you might as well turn off tone-mapping in the Panasonic, and set the TV manually to tone-map at the correct level. Some TVs will do the mapping based on the actual content and not the metadata.
If for example in the case of the meg, I know that it is lower in metadata than it actually is, is there anything in the optimizer settings that you would adjust manually to compensate? Eg would you say drop the Dynamic Range down, drop the Brightness down?
MOberhardt is offline  
post #4108 of 5093 Old 04-17-2019, 08:41 PM
Member
 
IGotB&'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 106
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Lightbulb What If?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandlj View Post
Bought my 820 today. Looking forward to using it.

Interestingly the AV specialist I bought from said that Oppo, Samsung, and Sony have pulled out from making UHD players so it won’t be long before everything is non disc. Thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's looking that way for sure. Look at the U.S. website and they only show one BD and one UHD BD player. There was an announcement of the DP-UB450 which is a lower end model. As I've mentioned in at least one post before, they're on target for sub one hundred buck players until there are none. The TVs are out of our market which gives you a clue.

You probably missed it because you had to wade through 1,000 or so posts asking what settings should I use.
rockhound76s and Dandlj like this.
IGotB& is offline  
post #4109 of 5093 Old 04-17-2019, 09:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
claw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: L'Etoile du Nord
Posts: 2,825
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2212 Post(s)
Liked: 2067
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOberhardt View Post
If for example in the case of the meg, I know that it is lower in metadata than it actually is, is there anything in the optimizer settings that you would adjust manually to compensate? Eg would you say drop the Dynamic Range down, drop the Brightness down?
It might be best to turn the Optimizer off with that title. And use a custom 4000 nit HDR curve in your projector. So there is no tone mapping based on metadata values.
MOberhardt likes this.

CJ
JVC RS500|LG B7A OLED|Denon X6400H/X4200W|Panasonic UB820|Two Oppo 203|Samsung K8500|Apple TV 4K|HDfury Vertex/Linker/Integral

Last edited by claw; 04-17-2019 at 09:40 PM.
claw is offline  
post #4110 of 5093 Old 04-17-2019, 09:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
MOberhardt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 939
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 701 Post(s)
Liked: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
It might be best to turn the Optimizer off with that title. And use a fixed curve in your projector. So there is no tone mapping based on metadata values.
Sigh. Just to reiterate, why oh why is everything on hardware and configuration in the 4k era such an ongoing cluster____.... The 1080p era was so smooth from so early. And it isn't like 2020 / hdcp2.2 is that new. 5 years. There may have been some hiccups at the start of 1080p hdmi, but nothing in comparison, and that was a HUGE evolutionary leap from the prior generation.
MOberhardt is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Blu-ray Players

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off