Official Panasonic DP-UB820/824 Owner's Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 17 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #481 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 12:31 PM
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Very Very Poor !

LG, Sony, will play most if not all of what I listed, OPPO plays ALL
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post #482 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I have the 203 and the ub820 with a JVC RS600, the tone mapping is better than the oppo in it's current form. Oppo needs to fix the WCG bug which we reported back in April. Its not looking likely since they are winding down and no news in several months.

Let me know if you have any specific questions related to the players and the JVC.
Jason,

I have the panasonic ub900 and the vertex with a jvc X750. Also, I have the oppo 203 with an lg oled c6 tv. I have tested the oppo bdp 203 with the current tone mapping with the jvc, and overall I like better using the panasonic/vertex combo with the jvc (and Domenic Chan's curves). My guess is that the panasonic ub900 and ub820 pq is similar. Is there any advantage of using the panasonic's new tone mapping over using custom gamma curves?

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post #483 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 02:51 PM
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Emails with Oppo Customer Service this morning:

Me-It's looking like you may never correct the tone mapping issues on the 203. Is that probably the case?

Oppo-This is something that we are still looking into. What gave you the impression that we would never correct it?

Me-The consensus seems to be that Oppo has been non committal about there being a fix for this. Now that the Panasonic 820 is out with proper tone mapping and HDR optimizer, people are bailing out with nothing definitive announced from Oppo.

Oppo-It’s an issue that is still being worked on, but we don’t know when it will be resolved. I suppose there is always a possibility that we will not be able to fix it, but we (the CS team) haven’t been told that by our firmware engineers at this point.
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post #484 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post
Emails with Oppo Customer Service this morning:

Me-It's looking like you may never correct the tone mapping issues on the 203. Is that probably the case?

Oppo-This is something that we are still looking into. What gave you the impression that we would never correct it?

Me-The consensus seems to be that Oppo has been non committal about there being a fix for this. Now that the Panasonic 820 is out with proper tone mapping and HDR optimizer, people are bailing out with nothing definitive announced from Oppo.

Oppo-It’s an issue that is still being worked on, but we don’t know when it will be resolved. I suppose there is always a possibility that we will not be able to fix it, but we (the CS team) haven’t been told that by our firmware engineers at this point.
I don't think oppo has ever had a solid grasp on tone mapping and that is why it is still an issue over a year from release.
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post #485 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detroit1 View Post
Very Very Poor !

LG, Sony, will play most if not all of what I listed, OPPO plays ALL
At the current price point for used Oppos with little to no future support you can buy an LG, a UB820, a Roku, and still likely have money left over.
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post #486 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
I don't think oppo has ever had a solid grasp on tone mapping and that is why it is still an issue over a year from release.
Correct, I was one of the first Oppo owners outside of Beta and tone mapping has been an issue since 2016. While it's possible Oppo may address it yet, I suspect many of their best engineers are now focusing on making money for the company (meaning cellphones).
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post #487 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 07:03 PM
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confirmed, no network media file bitstreaming

Robert @ VE confirmed with Panasonic, they are well aware that it doesn't pass bitstream and won't enable it due to being asked not to... likely from the studios. That is a bummer, it would have been the difference between a great player and an amazing player..
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post #488 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 07:07 PM
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Face it, these are to sell discs, not cater to the rippers. Not saying everyone is doing illegal stuff, I use my ATV for MKV's, but is what it is.

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post #489 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Robert @ VE confirmed with Panasonic, they are well aware that it doesn't pass bitstream and won't enable it due to being asked not to... likely from the studios. That is a bummer, it would have been the difference between a great player and an amazing player..
Probably won’t happen but wouldn’t it be interesting if OPPO totally opened up the player? No more Cinavia, region free for everything, iso playback, and all the goodies the BDA said your not supposed to do..... what will the BDA do yank their license? Oops, we don’t manufacture players anymore. Just dreaming
Ok back to 820 talk.

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post #490 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gonzalc3 View Post
Jason,

I have the panasonic ub900 and the vertex with a jvc X750. Also, I have the oppo 203 with an lg oled c6 tv. I have tested the oppo bdp 203 with the current tone mapping with the jvc, and overall I like better using the panasonic/vertex combo with the jvc (and Domenic Chan's curves). My guess is that the panasonic ub900 and ub820 pq is similar. Is there any advantage of using the panasonic's new tone mapping over using custom gamma curves?
I spent a few days going back and forth between the Oppo 203, UB900, UB820, network media players (Dune / Zidoo) and the custom curves. The Panasonic definitely has better TM than the Oppo 203 in it's current state. Even the UB900/Vertex combo superseded it imo. The new updates to the UB820 are nice, no extra hardware required, auto-selecting the TM based on the metadata (not always 100% accurate though) and the advanced white/black controls. Plus for some darker movies, you can crank the range slider a few clicks to bright it up.

it's a great plug and play player if you don't have a good custom curve. I don't think it exceeds a good curve though and for that reason i'll likely stick with my media players for daily use. I have ~50tb of storage and not crazy about swapping discs.

If you haven't tried JAVS 85 nit curve, definitely take a look, there is discussion in the shoot-out thread.


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post #491 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Robert @ VE confirmed with Panasonic, they are well aware that it doesn't pass bitstream and won't enable it due to being asked not to... likely from the studios. That is a bummer, it would have been the difference between a great player and an amazing player..
I don't really care about this aspect. If I were really concerned about it, I'd just buy an Apple TV 4K and use Infuse (as someone here has already mentioned). Maybe it's because my first foray into trying this was a long time ago with Blu-ray players, and they pretty much all sucked for this type of stuff back then, for various reasons. At that point I gave up on them. I didn't know the X800 was better for this, but it has other problems. I'd rather buy the top 4K UHD BR player to play 4K UHD, and leave the mkv and mov files to something else like the ATV 4K.

My main issue with the Panasonic UB820 is the horrible app interface (which is also present on my UB400 and on the UB900), and the slight audio lag that exists on my system with it in Netflix (that doesn't exist with the UB400). (I have already submitted the bug report.) However fortunately, my new TV has Netflix 4K HDR with Dolby Vision already, so there isn't any point to using Panasonic's Netflix application for me. The only potential gotcha I could see is ARC reliability from my TV, but so far ARC seems to be working fine (after only limited use that is).


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I read somewhere that all OLED displays can deal with up to 1000 nits with its own tone mapping... and then everything else just gets clipped. I'm thinking though that stuff between 800-1000 nits might show up quite differently depending upon the panel, as we have two completely different tone mapping curves from two different companies happening at 801-1000 nits and 1001-4000 nits. But, at this point, this is likely mostly insignificant to 99.99% of the population. I think people (like myself) are just happy to see highlights again, and not having them blown out.

BTW, where are the nit values for the settings documented? I couldn't find that. This article seems to suggest the OLED setting is built for 800 nits:

https://www.techradar.com/reviews/ha...-ub9000-review

However, 1000 just makes more sense to me, with tone mapping up to 1000 nits built into the TV.

500: Basic Luminance LCD or Projector
1000: Middle or High Luminance LCD
1500: Super High Luminance LCD
1000?: OLED

Is it confirmed it's 1000 nits for OLED, the same as the Middle/High Luminance LCD? Or is the setting somehow different?

I note my LG B7 hits well over 800 nits with a 2% window. The LG C8 hits well over 900.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b7-b7a-oled

Would my XBR X800E be categorized as a Basic Luminance LCD?

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x800e
It turns out that although all the OLEDs are LG panels, their built-in approaches to tone mapping differ. I don't know about the tone mapping implementation in Panasonic's OLED TVs, but for LG and Sony, the approach is very different.

See Vincent Teoh's video here:


It would appear that at least with the 2017 models, Sony's approach in its OLEDs is simply to clip everything above 1000 nits, as mentioned in the post above. However, the LG OLED approach is to tone map all the way up to 4000 nits. Note that this approach has a side effect of decreasing overall frame brightness, but this is corrected by LG's Dynamic HDR Low setting which adjusts for this.

IOW, even without using a tone mapping player, you can see tone mapping being performed on the 2017 LG effectively, but with a dimmer picture as it doesn't do the "smart" tone mapping that the Panasonic seems to be doing. See attached pic, which has the Sony on the left with a bright picture but one that clips out all the specular highlight detail, and the LG on the right which tone maps the detail in the shirt well but dims the overall frame. (This is with the Dynamic HDR setting turned off though.)

The reason I bring this up is that this additional detail may affect your use of tone mapping with the Panasonic, or maybe if you have a 2017 LG panel you may decide you don't need to upgrade from a UB400/700/900 at all, since you may be able to rely upon LG's built-in tone mapping along with the Dynamic HDR Low setting turned on.
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post #492 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post
I don't really care about this aspect. If I were really concerned about it, I'd just buy an Apple TV 4K and use Infuse (as someone here has already mentioned). Maybe it's because my first foray into trying this was a long time ago with Blu-ray players, and they pretty much all sucked for this type of stuff back then, for various reasons. At that point I gave up on them. I didn't know the X800 was better for this, but it has other problems. I'd rather buy the top 4K UHD BR player to play 4K UHD, and leave the mkv and mov files to something else like the ATV 4K.
The point of the network media playback would allow the use of the Panasonic TM features for those that store their UHD content on the network. The Oppo handles this aspect no problem, it will play UHD HDR MKV and even 3D BD over the network with full bitstream audio in the same quality as the original disc.

it's not a deal breaker but it would have been a very nice feature for some folks. .
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post #493 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I spent a few days going back and forth between the Oppo 203, UB900, UB820, network media players (Dune / Zidoo) and the custom curves. The Panasonic definitely has better TM than the Oppo 203 in it's current state. Even the UB900/Vertex combo superseded it imo. The new updates to the UB820 are nice, no extra hardware required, auto-selecting the TM based on the metadata (not always 100% accurate though) and the advanced white/black controls. Plus for some darker movies, you can crank the range slider a few clicks to bright it up.

it's a great plug and play player if you don't have a good custom curve. I don't think it exceeds a good curve though and for that reason i'll likely stick with my media players for daily use. I have ~50tb of storage and not crazy about swapping discs.

If you haven't tried JAVS 85 nit curve, definitely take a look, there is discussion in the shoot-out thread.




Many thanks, Jason. I just measured the projector’s light output and only have 57 nits (high lamp mode, iris fully opened). So I need a curve such as the one from Dominic which was designed for 65 nits.


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post #494 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 09:08 PM
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Howdy,

My 820 will be delivered on Saturday and I have a JVC RS500 projector. For those of you with this player combined with a JVC projector, what are the recommended baseline 820 player settings? While I have tried custom curves via the ARVE tool, I just have no interest in tinkering. I want this to be as much set it and forget it as possible. Thus, my assumption is that I would focus on having the 820 perform HDR->SDR conversion and tool mapping.

Thanks in advance.

Logan
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post #495 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 09:17 PM
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Howdy,

My 820 will be delivered on Saturday and I have a JVC RS500 projector. For those of you with this player combined with a JVC projector, what are the recommended baseline 820 player settings? While I have tried custom curves via the ARVE tool, I just have no interest in tinkering. I want this to be as much set it and forget it as possible. Thus, my assumption is that I would focus on having the 820 perform HDR->SDR conversion and tool mapping.

Thanks in advance.

Logan

Hi, it's pretty straight forward. There is a setting in the UB820 for SDR/BT2020. On the JVC, you would pick a user mode, set a custom gamma, set it to 2.4 and set the color space to BT2020 (vs REC709).

watch movies.. send me a PM once you get it if you have any specific questions or issues.


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post #496 of 6377 Old 08-15-2018, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Hi, it's pretty straight forward. There is a setting in the UB820 for SDR/BT2020. On the JVC, you would pick a user mode, set a custom gamma, set it to 2.4 and set the color space to BT2020 (vs REC709).

watch movies.. send me a PM once you get it if you have any specific questions or issues.
I'm a disc only old guy with a JVC X750R, and want to keep it simple as well. I think I'll sell the Oppo 203 that I've only briefly tested with one 4K disc just to make sure it worked last year when I bought it, and order an 820. The Oppo's are selling for stupid money right now too.

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post #497 of 6377 Old 08-16-2018, 12:39 AM
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Loving every minute of the HDR optimized Infinity War on the 820/Epson 5040.

Epson Dynamic Range set to "auto" with these 820 settings.

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post #498 of 6377 Old 08-16-2018, 08:37 AM
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Will the Dolby Vision update the 820 is to receive in the future be compatible with Sony tv's such as the Z9D?


Thanks!

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post #499 of 6377 Old 08-16-2018, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Hi, it's pretty straight forward. There is a setting in the UB820 for SDR/BT2020. On the JVC, you would pick a user mode, set a custom gamma, set it to 2.4 and set the color space to BT2020 (vs REC709).

watch movies.. send me a PM once you get it if you have any specific questions or issues.


What if the pj, like my Sony 300ES, doesn't have a BT2020 space option?
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post #500 of 6377 Old 08-16-2018, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by steevo123 View Post
Some files sound. Files with hi def audio - no sound. Error messages. The fact that usb playback and networked playback even exists is a frustrating tease - nothing dependable.
I was very disappointed that the 900 didn't decode lossless (like TrueHD) audio via USB (no problem with lossy audio), and the fact that the Panasonic players still don't do it suggests a design decision...which I just don't understand.

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post #501 of 6377 Old 08-16-2018, 09:58 AM
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Will the Dolby Vision update the 820 is to receive in the future be compatible with Sony tv's such as the Z9D?
Reportedly yes it will support the low latency DV profile that Sony TVs require, but I would suggest not counting your chickens before they're hatched.
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post #502 of 6377 Old 08-16-2018, 10:17 AM
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What if the pj, like my Sony 300ES, doesn't have a BT2020 space option?

You should output SDR Rec709 from the 820
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post #503 of 6377 Old 08-16-2018, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanton View Post
I was very disappointed that the 900 didn't decode lossless (like TrueHD) audio via USB (no problem with lossy audio), and the fact that the Panasonic players still don't do it suggests a design decision...which I just don't understand.
As earlier reported Panasonic stated they can do this but were told it violates copyright laws. So either they are misinterpreting the laws, or other companies are opening themselves up to lawsuits and fines.
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post #504 of 6377 Old 08-16-2018, 10:48 AM
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I was very disappointed that the 900 didn't decode lossless (like TrueHD) audio via USB (no problem with lossy audio), and the fact that the Panasonic players still don't do it suggests a design decision...which I just don't understand.
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As earlier reported Panasonic stated they can do this but were told it violates copyright laws. So either they are misinterpreting the laws, or other companies are opening themselves up to lawsuits and fines.
I am sure it violates some laws but why would they allow the video to pass but not hi-res audio.

The Oppo 103D is amazing for this situation as it passes all video and audio codes but only up to 1080P. If the new Panasonic could do this they would already have my money. Instead I had to give it to Nvidia as the Shield allows me to play 4K MKV files with bit-streaming.
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post #505 of 6377 Old 08-16-2018, 11:29 AM
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I am sure it violates some laws but why would they allow the video to pass but not hi-res audio.

The Oppo 103D is amazing for this situation as it passes all video and audio codes but only up to 1080P. If the new Panasonic could do this they would already have my money. Instead I had to give it to Nvidia as the Shield allows me to play 4K MKV files with bit-streaming.
Because the studios are just silly about content. Same stupid logic why some studios do not include lossless audio on Redbox rentals.

My only guess with Panasonic vs. Oppo is Panasonic has closer ties to the studios and follows their "rules' more closely. It also may be one reason they have insight to tone mapping that oppo does not...pick your poison.
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post #506 of 6377 Old 08-16-2018, 11:51 AM
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2nd batch from VE has started shipping

LG OLED65E6P - Sony 85X900F - Marantz SR7013 - Rotel 1075 - Oppo UDP-203 - Panasonic UB820 - Roku Ultra - B&W 704, HTM7, CWM663, RSL C34E, GE SuperSub X - Vincent PHO-700 - VPI Traveler
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post #507 of 6377 Old 08-16-2018, 11:52 AM
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You should output SDR Rec709 from the 820
I'm trying to do better than 709 which the 300ES can do.
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post #508 of 6377 Old 08-16-2018, 11:56 AM
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I'm trying to do better than 709 which the 300ES can do.
You'd have to use a color preset designed for BT2020. Have you tried the owners thread for the 300ES or contact Sony support or your vendor?
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post #509 of 6377 Old 08-16-2018, 01:10 PM
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2nd batch from VE has started shipping
gettinf mine Tuesday

Lg 65 C7
Lg 9800 1080 Oled
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Panasonic UB820 uhd player
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post #510 of 6377 Old 08-16-2018, 01:36 PM
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@curlyjive , what projector are you using with the 820?
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