Official Panasonic DP-UB820/824 Owner's Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 21 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #601 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 05:34 AM
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Too bad the 820 doesn't have an HDMI 'IN'
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post #602 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Actually, video is identical. The difference is a sturdier build and audio dacs.
The 9000, supposedly, has one additional video processing tweak. I watched a Youtube video on it at one point but can't recall the feature, I will try to look it up.
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post #603 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
21/Aug/2018
Ver 1.21
Dolby Vision Support
prime video Support

Stability of System
Kudos to Panasonic for getting the DV update out there. I will download tonight (not for DV but for Prime). I can also confirm the 820 is in the Harmony data base now and my Harmony Ultimate synced and controls the player with no issue.
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post #604 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Actually, video is identical. The difference is a sturdier build and audio dacs.
The 9000, supposedly, has one additional video processing tweak. I watched a Youtube video on it at one point but can't recall the feature, I will try to look it up.
I actually want to confirm this too cause was interested in the 9000. I don’t need the audio features at this time but I want rock solid build quality and the absolute best PQ so I may consider the 820 if PQ is identical to the 9000. I use my 900 now over my Oppo 203 which I may sell if I get another Panasonic?

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post #605 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Kris, what should I set my color profile, temp, and gamma to on my JVC rs620 for the Optimizer to do its thiing?

Should it be BT.2020, HDR, and Normal (2.4)? My Custom 1 and Custom 2 gamma curves were built by Chad.

I know to zero out everything else.
If you are outputting HDR from the Panasonic you would use whatever HDR settings you were using before, but this means you are overlapping tone maps, which I don't feel is the best approach for projectors.

If you are doing SDR2020 from the player, you would setup the projector with a 2.4 gamma and the BT2020 color profile selected. Essentially, the projector should be calibrated to D65 with a 2.4 gamma and the BT2020 color profile.
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post #606 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 06:31 AM
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R Zohn has both and reported that the video section of both is identical. Not sure why we have to go thru this every year...
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post #607 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Kris,

Do you have any preliminary reviews on the 820 yet, either a post here or blog/article anywhere else yet?

I’ll be getting one soon, but would love to hear your initial impressions, especially compared to the likes of the Lumagen Radiance Pro and maybe MadVR or custom curves and whatnot.
I did a review for Sound and Vision, but I'm not sure when they plan to publish. I know it has been edited already, so I'm not sure if it is in fact check or what. They don't keep me in the loop on that stuff.

I found the tone mapping to be VERY similar to the Radiance Pro. Doesn't require quite as much fiddling though. The Panasonic has proper desaturation as well. I would highly recommend it over the Arve curves as it actually changes with the content (not static like Arve), does not screw up color (as clearly demonstrated by Arve in the MadVR thread) and does proper desaturation. It also doesn't require any outboard boxes with any of the projectors.

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post #608 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
R Zohn has both and reported that the video section of both is identical. Not sure why we have to go thru this every year...
While that might be true there were some additional menu options that the 9000 supposedly has vs the 820. Direct from R Zohn himself on the 9000 vs 820:

Quote:
Basically correct, however the UB9000 has more menu options and technical information that will help selecting the best HDR Optimizer mode for each BD and your display's peak luminance ability.
Which confirms what I mentioned. I do remember seeing a screenshot of a video processing option on the 9000 that the 820 does not have. These are probably slight variations at best and may not result in better PQ but if you are a videophile and want all the options and better build quality, better remote, etc the 9000 might be worth the wait.

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post #609 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 06:55 AM
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There really isn't a thing left I can say that is nice about this subject, so I will let you guys part with your $500 easily. And I'll remind you, this is not the 9000 thread, there is one of those...
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post #610 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
While that might be true there were some additional menu options that the 9000 supposedly has vs the 820. Direct from R Zohn himself on the 9000 vs 820:



Which confirms what I mentioned. I do remember seeing a screenshot of a video processing option on the 9000 that the 820 does not have. These are probably slight variations at best and may not result in better PQ but if you are a videophile and want all the options and better build quality, better remote, etc the 9000 might be worth the wait.
If I recall, the 9000/820 both have this capability over the 420. It's an extra field or two in the Optimizer.

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post #611 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
21/Aug/2018
Ver 1.21
Dolby Vision Support
prime video Support

Stability of System

Before I update, can someone confirm you can turn DV off like HDR10+ and HLG?
Suhweet! This is great. The timing couldn't be any better!

The UB820 has Dolby Vision now.
The UB820 has Amazon Prime now.
My new 65" LG C8 OLED is on order, due by next week (hopefully), with Dolby Vision.
My new TV stand arrives next week, to support my TV and which has a slot for my big centre channel speaker.
My 2015 Marantz SR5010 should also get its Dolby Vision update in approximately 2 weeks. (The 2015 Denons have already started getting the DV update, and Marantz usually follows a few weeks later.)
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post #612 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
There really isn't a thing left I can say that is nice about this subject, so I will let you guys part with your $500 easily. And I'll remind you, this is not the 9000 thread, there is one of those...
I am not parting with my 820 vs 9000, somebody asked a question and was just trying to provide feedback. For someone on the fence buying an 820 vs 9000 my advice would be to wait until the 9000 is actually released and make a decision.
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post #613 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
I am not parting with my 820 vs 9000, somebody asked a question and was just trying to provide feedback. For someone on the fence buying an 820 vs 9000 my advice would be to wait until the 9000 is actually released and make a decision.
I would agree with that if (a) you need the audio capability, or (b) you have a high-end display monitor capable of HDR10+ and Dolby Vision.

I run all audio through an Anthem 60 for 7.2.4 sound, and I have a JVC projector, so anything beyond HDR10 is unrelated to my situation.

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post #614 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 07:39 AM
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This is fantastic timing since my Denon X2200W just got its DV update on Sunday evening.

I updated the player this morning and confirmed that you can turn DV on and just leave it on, the player will switch between DV or HDR depending on the disc.

I did notice some minor lip sync issues with Cabin in the Woods, but The Matrix seems fine so maybe it's the disc.

I returned a Sony X700 (using dual audio out at the time) due to horrible DV lipsync issues with my C6 OLED.

It really seemed like the X700 was somehow taxing the TV more playing DV than the UB820 is. I could barely navigate around the TVs menus when playing a DV disc with the Sony, but the UB820 is no worse than playing normal streaming DV content.

I wonder if that has to do with profile support. If the X700 only supports the low latency protocol while the UB820 supports both, maybe my tv can't cope with the low latency protocol very well.

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post #615 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Here's what I mean. I have a UB900>>HDFury Vertex>>JVC RS620. I just ordered a UB820 to see if the Optimizer is useful.

Chad B calibrated my system. He built curves for HDR and others for SDR rec709 and 2020. One is a straight HDR with an "imported" curve from Chad, and I have two custom gamma curves he calibrated.

I can also tell the Vertex to convert to SDR 2020, and I can use the BT2020 color space to get a picture almost indistinguishable from the HDR mode on my projector.

The post I was referencing said he got a better result with his new Panny 820 Optimizer by sticking with HDR2020 rather than making the conversion in the player to SDR2020 (which would eliminate the need for a Vertex). I haven't seen anyone else say that anywhere.

I'm trying to determine with setup would best work for my UB820 and JVC 620 combination.
To clear up any misinterpretation of the HDfury Vertex capabilities: The HDfury Vertex does not have the capability to convert HDR to SDR. It has a "Disable HDR" checkbox that simply disables an HDR indicator. It was specifically added for some JVC Projector models so they do not automatically select a built-in HDR Gamma or disable the dyamic iris. The content is still HDR and requires a HDR gamma to be selected; either manually or by use of Vertex macros to send commands over RS232 to the JVC to select the proper custom gamma curve.
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post #616 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
If I recall, the 9000/820 both have this capability over the 420. It's an extra field or two in the Optimizer.
I think the Menu option is called "System Gamma." I have not seen this on my 820, and I believe if it exists in a production model at all it is on the 9000 as per the screen shots on VE's website.
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post #617 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 08:39 AM
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Does anyone know if Panasonic firmware can be rolled back?
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post #618 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 08:48 AM
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Can someone please confirm that this Dolby Vision update works with Sony tv's, such as the Z9D?


Thank you.

Spoiler!
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post #619 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The other settings are to taste, but I don't feel they should be adjusted at all to get a great picture. But it seems that everyone on these forums have to just fiddle, so obviously play to your hearts content.

I also don't feel the need to mess with test patterns for this player since it is dynamically mapping and the static metadata on Ryan's patterns are different than the actual data in the patterns.
Thanks Kris. I thought this might be the case.

For me, I really don't necessarily feel the need to fiddle (!), but do like having an understanding of how this all works, in case I see something that doesn't seem quite right, so I'll have a logical approach.

I don't have one yet, but unless there are some unexpected surprises, it seems likely that I'll be getting one.

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post #620 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 09:15 AM
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Can the 820 output WCG and HDR from a 4k UHD disc in 1080p? The older Panasonic players could only send SDR if asked to downscale to 1080p.
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post #621 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Kris,

Do you have any preliminary reviews on the 820 yet, either a post here or blog/article anywhere else yet?

I’ll be getting one soon, but would love to hear your initial impressions, especially compared to the likes of the Lumagen Radiance Pro and maybe MadVR or custom curves and whatnot.
I did a review for Sound and Vision, but I'm not sure when they plan to publish. I know it has been edited already, so I'm not sure if it is in fact check or what. They don't keep me in the loop on that stuff.

I found the tone mapping to be VERY similar to the Radiance Pro. Doesn't require quite as much fiddling though. The Panasonic has proper desaturation as well. I would highly recommend it over the Arve curves as it actually changes with the content (not static like Arve), does not screw up color (as clearly demonstrated by Arve in the MadVR thread) and does proper desaturation. It also doesn't require any outboard boxes with any of the projectors.
What is proper desaturation?
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post #622 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I did a review for Sound and Vision, but I'm not sure when they plan to publish. I know it has been edited already, so I'm not sure if it is in fact check or what. They don't keep me in the loop on that stuff.

I found the tone mapping to be VERY similar to the Radiance Pro. Doesn't require quite as much fiddling though. The Panasonic has proper desaturation as well. I would highly recommend it over the Arve curves as it actually changes with the content (not static like Arve), does not screw up color (as clearly demonstrated by Arve in the MadVR thread) and does proper desaturation. It also doesn't require any outboard boxes with any of the projectors.
So to further your argument, you would go back to the standard HDR profile on the PJ, with the 2.4 gamma selected and not use any of arve curves at all?

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post #623 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 11:15 AM
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After update set Dolby Vision to on. With hdr,Dolby vision,and standard blu ray all work automatically not like the Sony X700. With Amazon prime the same no dv. But on Netflix Dolby Vision is always on weather standard,hdr or dv. Just like the Sony. I hope this can be corrected. Mabey its a Netflix issue.
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post #624 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by william06 View Post
After update set Dolby Vision to on. With hdr,Dolby vision,and standard blu ray all work automatically not like the Sony X700. With Amazon prime the same no dv. But on Netflix Dolby Vision is always on weather standard,hdr or dv. Just like the Sony. I hope this can be corrected. Mabey its a Netflix issue.
Xbox is the same way kinda, and PS4 I think (HDR10 always on).

Can you turn DV off in the menu and fix that? Also, with DV off in the menu, will a disc just play HDR10?

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post #625 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 11:31 AM
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What is proper desaturation?
Desaturating colors that are not achievable by a display that can only do X nits. If you don't desaturate properly, you end up with illegal colors that will make the image look wrong.

This is one of the reasons that the player in its display types has mid brightness LED and OLED, despite them both being 1000 nits. OLED uses WRGB pixels, so it the tone map has to compensate for its limitations in color saturation.
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post #626 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 11:36 AM
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Sony and Panasonic engineers amaze me me with their "math" and testing.

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post #627 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Xbox is the same way kinda, and PS4 I think (HDR10 always on).

Can you turn DV off in the menu and fix that? Also, with DV off in the menu, will a disc just play HDR10?
I’ll have to check that later
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post #628 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Desaturating colors that are not achievable by a display that can only do X nits. If you don't desaturate properly, you end up with illegal colors that will make the image look wrong.

This is one of the reasons that the player in its display types has mid brightness LED and OLED, despite them both being 1000 nits. OLED uses WRGB pixels, so it the tone map has to compensate for its limitations in color saturation.
I had always wondered about this and thought something like that was going on. So if doing SDR BT2020, is the desaturation done based on whether the optimizer is on or off, or does the dynamic range slider influence how colors are handled as well?
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post #629 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 11:56 AM
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So to further your argument, you would go back to the standard HDR profile on the PJ, with the 2.4 gamma selected and not use any of arve curves at all?
Alright, here is the deal. I think a lot of people on these boards aren't 100% in their understanding of HDR and how it pertains to projectors. Therefore, the following comments APPLY TO PROJECTOR IMPLEMENTATION ONLY!!!

First, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SDR vs HDR. The reason you see this moniker is to make it easier to understand the base calibration that should be performed. There is no such thing as taking HDR and making it SDR. There is only tone mapping. Because the projector can only reach a low nit level you have three options: the projector tone maps (HDR GAMMA MODE), a custom tone map (ARVE) or the player tone maps (SDR2020). ALL of these solutions are trying to accomplish the same thing, taking a HDR signal and making it work with a low light display.

Projector tone maps are all based on best guess/research by the company. There is no standard. Arve tool is similar, though I believe he may be taking into account the suggestions made for tone mapping in BT2390. But it is still doing the same thing, it just allows the end user to tailor the curve more to their MEASURED display max and allows choices for aggressiveness. But the Arve curve does some things wrong with color support/desaturation, which you can read up on in the MadVR thread. The SDR2020 is just another tone map that is generated by the player to a specified brightness level (set by the slider). You calibrate the projector to a known state (gamma 2.4) so that Panasonic (or whoever is doing it, Oppo did something similar) knows what the underlying gamma their tone map is being applied to. The UB820 changes the tone map dynamically based on the metadata read from the disc. The Arve curves are setup for specific circumstances (1000 nits, 1200 nits, 4000 nits) and the hope is these will be good enough for most images you watch (and they look quite good all things considered). The Panasonic actually changes its tone map on a title by title basis, so long as the title has different values to change to (MaxCLL levels that vary). This maximizes your light usage on a title by title basis, so long as the information on the disc is right. It also applies the proper color handling, unlike the Arve curves.

The only other option is what you mentioned above, using an Arve curve INSTEAD of the projector HDR mode and then sending a tone mapped HDR signal (HDR Optimizer ON and HDR). This would be applying the Optimizer on top of your Arve curve. The Optimizer would be working with the assumption of a 500 nit display base, but that is also changed with the slider.

I can't think of any reason to do that final option unless you had a projector that would not accept 2020 color unless it was actually seeing an HDR signal (I know this doesn't apply to either the Sony models I've tested or the JVCs). I would recommend using the SDR2020 mode in ALL usage cases that I'm aware of. This would (IMHO) give you the best tone mapping which would be adaptive to the content, have proper color handling, and can be adjusted "to taste" on the fly for content that may need additional tweaking.

My Home Theater UPDATED DEC 2017
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post #630 of 5941 Old 08-21-2018, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post
I had always wondered about this and thought something like that was going on. So if doing SDR BT2020, is the desaturation done based on whether the optimizer is on or off, or does the dynamic range slider influence how colors are handled as well?
Panasonic isn't telling me everything they do, that would be giving out their R&D work for others to use. But for SDR2020 I imagine they are applying desaturation based on a 1000 nit tone map (Optimizer OFF) and where the slider is for display max. With Optimizer ON, they would apply based on the tone map (which is based on either the MaxCLL or MaxDML) and where the slider is for your display.

My Home Theater UPDATED DEC 2017
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Deep Dive AV - Calibration, Consulting and Education
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