Sony UBP-X800M2 Anticipation Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 148Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 301 Old 05-10-2019, 10:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
william06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: South central Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,105
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 805 Post(s)
Liked: 432
I’m hoping BB starts taking orders soon, love VE but have some rewards I need to use.
aaronwt likes this.

Lg oled65G7P
Panasonic ubp9000
atv4k -roku ultra
Toshiba X1 HD-DVD
Samsung HW-N950 soundbar
william06 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 301 Old 05-10-2019, 12:13 PM
Senior Member
 
TommyDeVito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 226
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 128 Post(s)
Liked: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by william06 View Post
I’m hoping BB starts taking orders soon, love VE but have some rewards I need to use.
You can order via Magnolia. I ordered mine a month ago. It's in the system.
aaronwt likes this.

HT 7.1.4: Sony X940E, Marantz SR8012, LR: JBL Studio 580's, C: JBL Studio 520c, Surrounds and Rears: JBL Studio 530's, ATMOS: JBL Studio 210's, Sub: HSU VTF-3 mk5
MB 5.1: Sony 55" X950G, Denon X3500H, LR/Surrounds: JBL Studio 270’s, C: JBL Studio 235c, Sub: HSU VTF-2 mk5
Living Room/Office 5.1: Sony 49" 900E's, HTNT5's with wireless rear channels
TommyDeVito is offline  
post #183 of 301 Old 05-10-2019, 12:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
william06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: South central Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,105
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 805 Post(s)
Liked: 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyDeVito View Post
You can order via Magnolia. I ordered mine a month ago. It's in the system.
Thanks for the info
william06 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #184 of 301 Old 05-10-2019, 01:00 PM
Senior Member
 
zeonstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 497
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 309 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyDeVito View Post
You can order via Magnolia. I ordered mine a month ago. It's in the system.
Can you do it online? I'm not seeing it.
zeonstar is online now  
post #185 of 301 Old 05-10-2019, 02:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
Cortiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 533
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Check you local Best Buy store. My local Best Buy have this on the shelve today even though it's not listed on their website.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TrueDis, aaronwt and Boxozaxu like this.
Cortiz is offline  
post #186 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 04:46 AM
Advanced Member
 
Scott M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 543
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Liked: 225
A member at another forum picked up the X800M2 from Best Buy / Magnolia already, so some stores have it in stock. He confirmed that the Dolby Vision implementation is the same as on the X700. That makes this player a no-go for me. I will instead stick with my original X800 for now and continue doing without DV support.
PlanetAVS and ToonMasterTim like this.
Scott M is offline  
post #187 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 05:11 AM
Advanced Member
 
irishluck73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: CNY
Posts: 713
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 267 Post(s)
Liked: 157
What are the differences between the 700, X800, and X800M2?

I am aware of the "better build quality" of the 800/M2 but there doesn't seem to be any major differences that I'm aware of. Please educate me. Thanks!
irishluck73 is offline  
post #188 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 07:18 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 4
I have the LG-UP875 (Complete trash) and it has been skipping & freezing a lot, so LG is refunding me what I paid for it almost a year ago since they said they no longer service them. So, I’m looking at a new 4K Blu-Ray Player and wondering if something like the X800M2 would be a good upgrade for someone who is only used to the UP875?
ShadowKingpin is offline  
post #189 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 07:22 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
william06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: South central Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,105
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 805 Post(s)
Liked: 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott M View Post
A member at another forum picked up the X800M2 from Best Buy / Magnolia already, so some stores have it in stock. He confirmed that the Dolby Vision implementation is the same as on the X700. That makes this player a no-go for me. I will instead stick with my original X800 for now and continue doing without DV support.
Wow that’s kind of a shame. Seems like an x800 with dv and a toggle to boot. At least the panny 820 only has that irritation with Netflix. Not saying it’s a bad unit. Interesting to see owners reviews.

Lg oled65G7P
Panasonic ubp9000
atv4k -roku ultra
Toshiba X1 HD-DVD
Samsung HW-N950 soundbar
william06 is online now  
post #190 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 08:13 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 260
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott M View Post
..He confirmed that the Dolby Vision implementation is the same as on the X700. ...

Greetings Scott.
Does he mean manual on/off control for DV?
If so, that's the feature I need.
Many thanks and best regards,
qoopy is offline  
post #191 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 08:20 AM
Advanced Member
 
Scott M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 543
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Liked: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by qoopy View Post
Greetings Scott.
Does he mean manual on/off control for DV?
If so, that's the feature I need.
Many thanks and best regards,

Dolby Vision works the same as on the X700. That means it is fully manual, and if Dolby Vision is turned on, then everything is output in DV -- even non-DV material.


This is a show stopper for me. I do not want to be forced to check each UHD disc beforehand to see if it is DV-encoded, manually turn on DV, and then try to remember to turn it back off when done playing the disc. I know I will forget too often -- and even when I would remember, it's way too cumbersome. I have no idea why Sony could not implement an auto-sensing method, as other disc player and streaming box manufacturers have done.
aaronwt likes this.
Scott M is offline  
post #192 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 08:41 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
gadgtfreek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bama
Posts: 12,066
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 634 Post(s)
Liked: 5821
I think this is getting a little old, we get it, Sony ain't gonna change it. Maybe the owners can talk about the device and not several times a week get off into how bad the implementation is? I leave DV off all the time, so this is fine for me and another reason I bought it. If you do not want it, fine, move on.
Transistorious likes this.

XBR65A9G / XBR65A8F
Oppo UDP-203 / Sony X800M2
AVRX6500H / RP-8000F / RP-504C / RP502S / FV15HP
gadgtfreek is offline  
post #193 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 08:44 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 260
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 19
That's true. But's this under appreciated feature is unique to sony.
william06 likes this.
qoopy is offline  
post #194 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 08:49 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
william06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: South central Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,105
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 805 Post(s)
Liked: 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I think this is getting a little old, we get it, Sony ain't gonna change it. Maybe the owners can talk about the device and not several times a week get off into how bad the implementation is? I leave DV off all the time, so this is fine for me and another reason I bought it. If you do not want it, fine, move on.
You could also not read the posts pertaining to this feature and also move on.
PlanetAVS likes this.

Lg oled65G7P
Panasonic ubp9000
atv4k -roku ultra
Toshiba X1 HD-DVD
Samsung HW-N950 soundbar
william06 is online now  
post #195 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 08:56 AM
Advanced Member
 
ToonMasterTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 525
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 152 Post(s)
Liked: 100
I like my X800. The build quality. The quiet playback. Good DVD upscaling. The apps perform fairly well, too. And the remote isn't bad, plus it controls power, volume and input selection on my LG B7 OLED. It just lacks Dolby Vision. So, I bought a Philips UHD BD player from Sam's Club as a companion a couple of years ago, and it covers that need. Too bad Sony couldn't give the X800M the ability to switch HDR on the fly like the inexpensive Philips player from two years ago is doing. Sad, Sony. Sad. Had the X800M had that capability, I would have considered selling my two players to get an X800M.
ToonMasterTim is offline  
post #196 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 09:01 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
gadgtfreek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bama
Posts: 12,066
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 634 Post(s)
Liked: 5821
Quote:
Originally Posted by william06 View Post
You could also not read the posts pertaining to this feature and also move on.
LOL, OK, lets keep posting the same thing over and over for 2 lifecycles and hope it changes... I mean the function was already confirmed to be the same weeks ago, and here we still are...

Since this is an anticipation thread, I'll just start an owners thread, that way some of you can stay here and be bitter. Its a shame AVS has come to this point, where you have to create owner's only threads because people who don't want a product won't flock to threads of products they do want...
maxi_mus likes this.

XBR65A9G / XBR65A8F
Oppo UDP-203 / Sony X800M2
AVRX6500H / RP-8000F / RP-504C / RP502S / FV15HP
gadgtfreek is offline  
post #197 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 09:08 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
gadgtfreek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bama
Posts: 12,066
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 634 Post(s)
Liked: 5821
Owners thread

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-b...rice-talk.html
cydeweyz likes this.

XBR65A9G / XBR65A8F
Oppo UDP-203 / Sony X800M2
AVRX6500H / RP-8000F / RP-504C / RP502S / FV15HP
gadgtfreek is offline  
post #198 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 09:16 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
PlanetAVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Austin TX USA
Posts: 2,589
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1664 Post(s)
Liked: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
LOL, OK, lets keep posting the same thing over and over for 2 lifecycles and hope it changes... I mean the function was already confirmed to be the same weeks ago, and here we still are...

Since this is an anticipation thread, I'll just start an owners thread, that way some of you can stay here and be bitter. Its a shame AVS has come to this point, where you have to create owner's only threads because people who don't want a product won't flock to threads of products they do want...
With all due respect, people will talk about what they want to talk about. Not what you want them to talk about. Unless something is off topic for a particular thread, I don't see the issue.

I have the X700 and I wouldn't hesitate to bitch about the Dolby Vision implementation in an owners thread.
william06 likes this.
PlanetAVS is offline  
post #199 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 11:02 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 405 Post(s)
Liked: 954
Toggle or no toggle, DV doesn't matter to me, though for other reasons I do look forward to X800M2 and X1100ES reviews.

Discounts on the X800 should be of interest to some/many non-DVers, including myself.

Panasonic TC65CX850U Yamaha RX-V1079 Technics SU-V650 Panasonic DMP-UB900 Sony UBP-X800 Polk Audio SDA-2B
Panson is offline  
post #200 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 11:22 AM
Advanced Member
 
Cortiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 533
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
Liked: 96
I think there may still be a chance the DV auto feature would work on Sony Bravia TV's only. There's a new feature called "Bravia Mode" which has the following description:

[BRAVIA Mode]
[On]: Sets [Dolby Vision Output], [4K Upscale
Setting], and [Video Settings] to the mode
optimized for BRAVIA.
[Off]: Turns off the function


Maybe if you turn off the DV function from the players screen settings (that way it's not force) and just let the Bravia mode "ON" It could potentially provide the auto DV feature some users are looking for. But this only works on Sony Bravia TV's. We need someone with a Bravia TV to test this setup for us.
aaronwt likes this.
Cortiz is offline  
post #201 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 12:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
PlanetAVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Austin TX USA
Posts: 2,589
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1664 Post(s)
Liked: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortiz View Post
I think there may still be a chance the DV auto feature would work on Sony Bravia TV's only. There's a new feature called "Bravia Mode" which has the following description:

[BRAVIA Mode]
[On]: Sets [Dolby Vision Output], [4K Upscale
Setting], and [Video Settings] to the mode
optimized for BRAVIA.
[Off]: Turns off the function


Maybe if you turn off the DV function from the players screen settings (that way it's not force) and just let the Bravia mode "ON" It could potentially provide the auto DV feature some users are looking for. But this only works on Sony Bravia TV's. We need someone with a Bravia TV to test this setup for us.
Hope someone can test this as I have one week left in my return window for the X700, and I have the Sony 900F TV. I'd try it myself but no local Best Buys have it in stock.
PlanetAVS is offline  
post #202 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 05:35 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortiz View Post
I think there may still be a chance the DV auto feature would work on Sony Bravia TV's only. There's a new feature called "Bravia Mode" which has the following description:

[BRAVIA Mode]
[On]: Sets [Dolby Vision Output], [4K Upscale
Setting], and [Video Settings] to the mode
optimized for BRAVIA.
[Off]: Turns off the function


Maybe if you turn off the DV function from the players screen settings (that way it's not force) and just let the Bravia mode "ON" It could potentially provide the auto DV feature some users are looking for. But this only works on Sony Bravia TV's. We need someone with a Bravia TV to test this setup for us.
Well that's kind of what I was hoping also...

I have one pre-ordered from Crutchfield and I also own a 900F so i'll be trying this out right away!
mitchaucoin is offline  
post #203 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 10:16 PM
Senior Member
 
Kbadone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 218
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Picked one up today from my local Best Buy

Here is what I have found out from the few mins I spent on it

1) Home screen has been re-designed, new icons and only 3 streaming apps available (Netflix, Prime, YouTube)
2) DV is not automatic (WTF!!)
3) DV can only be set to On or off
4) If a movie is capable of DV it will display in DV with DV logo on the top right before its starts and it looks vivid and sharp!
5) If a movie is only capable of HDR10 and DV is set to On, the player will play it in DV mode!!
6) If DV was set to off and tried to play Netflix original DV capable, the show's main screen will only display HDR badge on the show's summary page and play in HDR mode
7) If DV was set to On and Netflix original DV capable, the show's main screen will display DVision badge on the show's summary page and play in DV mode
8) If DV was set to On and tried to play anything on Netflix, the player will play any show on netflix in DV whether it was HD SDR, 4K SDR or 4K HDR
9) You have to go to settings and toggle DV On and Off every time use want to use it or not (Very Stupid!)
10) They had time since 2017 and that the best they can come up with!!

I have tested the player on my Z9D and STRZA5000ES receiver (Both DV ready)

Let me know if you have any questions
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_1460.JPG
Views:	47
Size:	509.5 KB
ID:	2565660  
Kbadone is offline  
post #204 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 10:21 PM
Senior Member
 
Kbadone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 218
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortiz View Post
I think there may still be a chance the DV auto feature would work on Sony Bravia TV's only. There's a new feature called "Bravia Mode" which has the following description:

[BRAVIA Mode]
[On]: Sets [Dolby Vision Output], [4K Upscale
Setting], and [Video Settings] to the mode
optimized for BRAVIA.
[Off]: Turns off the function


Maybe if you turn off the DV function from the players screen settings (that way it's not force) and just let the Bravia mode "ON" It could potentially provide the auto DV feature some users are looking for. But this only works on Sony Bravia TV's. We need someone with a Bravia TV to test this setup for us.
Here is what happens when you Set BRAVIA Mode to ON
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_1463.JPG
Views:	77
Size:	380.6 KB
ID:	2565662  
Kbadone is offline  
post #205 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 10:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
PlanetAVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Austin TX USA
Posts: 2,589
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1664 Post(s)
Liked: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortiz View Post
I think there may still be a chance the DV auto feature would work on Sony Bravia TV's only. There's a new feature called "Bravia Mode" which has the following description:

[BRAVIA Mode]
[On]: Sets [Dolby Vision Output], [4K Upscale
Setting], and [Video Settings] to the mode
optimized for BRAVIA.
[Off]: Turns off the function


Maybe if you turn off the DV function from the players screen settings (that way it's not force) and just let the Bravia mode "ON" It could potentially provide the auto DV feature some users are looking for. But this only works on Sony Bravia TV's. We need someone with a Bravia TV to test this setup for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbadone View Post
Picked one up today from my local Best Buy

Here is what I have found out from the few mins I spent on it

1) Home screen has been re-designed, new icons and only 3 streaming apps available (Netflix, Prime, YouTube)
2) DV is not automatic (WTF!!)
3) DV can only be set to On or off
4) If a movie is capable of DV it will display in DV with DV logo on the top right before its starts and it looks vivid and sharp!
5) If a movie is only capable of HDR10 and DV is set to On, the player will play it in DV mode!!
6) If DV was set to off and tried to play Netflix original DV capable, the show's main screen will only display HDR badge on the show's summary page and play in HDR mode
7) If DV was set to On and Netflix original DV capable, the show's main screen will display DVision badge on the show's summary page and play in DV mode
8) If DV was set to On and tried to play anything on Netflix, the player will play any show on netflix in DV whether it was HD SDR, 4K SDR or 4K HDR
9) You have to go to settings and toggle DV On and Off every time use want to use it or not (Very Stupid!)
10) They had time since 2017 and that the best they can come up with!!

I have tested the player on my Z9D and STRZA5000ES receiver (Both DV ready)

Let me know if you have any questions
Did you try the Bravia setting as described in post #200 above?
PlanetAVS is offline  
post #206 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 10:57 PM
Senior Member
 
Kbadone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 218
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlanetAVS View Post
Did you try the Bravia setting as described in post #200 above?
If you switch BRAVIA Mode to On, Dolby Vision switches to Off
If you switch Dolby Vision to On, BRAVIA Mode switches to Off

See attached image in post #204
PlanetAVS likes this.
Kbadone is offline  
post #207 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 11:16 PM
Senior Member
 
zeonstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 497
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 309 Post(s)
Liked: 78
For those of you who found one at your local Best Buy, where about do you live?
zeonstar is online now  
post #208 of 301 Old 05-11-2019, 11:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 260
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbadone View Post
...
5) If a movie is only capable of HDR10 and DV is set to On, the player will play it in DV mode!!
...
Greetings Kbadone.
Thanks for sharing the information.
Would you be kind enough to elaborate on what are the differences you've observed. As you know, DV relies on dynamic metadata encoded into every frame(or scene?), and I wonder if the m2 is using some default value to simulate DV when decoding a non-DV title. And also, does it behave in the same way if DV is switched off in the display?
Many thanks and best regards,

Last edited by qoopy; 05-11-2019 at 11:33 PM.
qoopy is offline  
post #209 of 301 Old 05-12-2019, 02:30 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
william06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: South central Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,105
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 805 Post(s)
Liked: 432
Other than adding DV (with the dumb toggle) and fewer streaming options, are there any improvements from the x800 or x700.
william06 is online now  
post #210 of 301 Old 05-12-2019, 04:38 AM
Newbie
 
XxSilent22xX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 4
I went in to my local best buy yesterday and they don't have it in yet. He said he doesn't even have a number to look up. What are the downfalls of just leaving Dolby vision on all the time? Will other videos look worse? or is this just a OCD thing?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
XxSilent22xX is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Blu-ray Players

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off