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post #31 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankmonkey
yup.. which the rest of my quote show ;)
Hey, let's not forget the CRT kids...many can handle 1080p analog. I doubt we'll ever see anything sadder than watching a bright-eyed G90 owner unwrapping a $499 PS3 on Christmas morning...we need to help these poor folks realize which SKU to buy! :)

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post #32 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 06:52 PM
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Only in a BR forum would you have such a Sony fanboy arguing how MD was not a failure.

We obviously have differing ideas on the word of failure. Your definition is "if something sells well and makes a profit" then it must NOT be a failure. Let me break it down to you...it's *NOT* sales or profit that dictate if something is a failure. I deem MD a failure because Sony's vision for what MD would become never materialized. Despite MD's sales, MD *NEVER* became a mainstream product or even CLOSE (I personally only know of ONE person that had one). Would you consider BR a success if Sony sells tons of PS3s and manages to make a profit off of it...even if HD DVD defeats BR ...?? Would you change your mind on D-VHS and consider it a success if the majority of the companies involved made decent ROIs? (Returns on investment)

NO!

Heck, even the wikipedia article is prefaced by basically saying it was a failure:

"Minidiscs are popular in Japan as a digital upgrade to cassette tapes, but have not been as popular in the United States despite multiple marketing efforts by Sony. Minidiscs were also somewhat popular for a time in the United Kingdom between 1998 and 2001"

edit:

Another way to look at my definition of failure is I believe that if Sony KNEW how MD would play out if they released it...they just wouldn't release it. I know that's fairly harsh, but it's completely reasonable. Sony spent a lot of money (note the 'despite multiple marketing efforts' in the above) pushing MD and never really got any positive recognition...any net dollars brought in by MD went out the window with reduced brand equity (perceived value of a company's name/brand).




Quote:
Originally Posted by bwiklem
Uh, you're point is invalid. Total sales numbers do equal success. And Sony wasn't the only company supporting Minidisc (especially in Japan) - Onkyo, Pioneer, Matsu****a, Sharp, Sanyo, etc. Hard to call a format a failure when other companies were supporting it, for a good number of years no less.

As for MP3 players, MD players/recorders the past few years could be had for considerably less than an MP3 player (i.e. one with a HD in it, not solid state). If MD wasn't selling, they wouldn't be producing hardware for it anymore. In fact, new recordable media from Maxell was introduced in March of this year. Last year Sharp introduced new MD units.

And a correction to your past post: Hi-MD store 1GB of data, not 300MB. 300MB was for 2nd gen MDs (1st Gen 180MB)

Bottom line - if there wasn't demand and profit, these electronics companies wouldn't continue production of MD. Not in this competitive of a market, not with the proliferation of MP3 (i.e. iPod) units. Someone's buying this stuff, otherwise it would be dead already.

The fact? They're making money off of it, that's why it won't die. Companies are in this business to make money.
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post #33 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amillians
Hey, let's not forget the CRT kids...many can handle 1080p analog. I doubt we'll ever see anything sadder than watching a bright-eyed G90 owner unwrapping a $499 PS3 on Christmas morning...we need to help these poor folks realize which SKU to buy! :)
Really, which ones? I didn't forget them but I also don't follow high end CRT projectors. If I had the budget for a high end CRT set-up I'd love it. CRT is king in terms of PQ IMO. I'm not away of any 1080p analog CRT sets at stores like Best Buy, Fry's, Circuit City, etc..
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post #34 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 07:04 PM
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So a failure in one region means the product is a failure overall? VCD for example was/is huge in Asia but has almost no presence in the US outside of some early porn releases around DVDs arrival and beforehand. is VCD a failure then?
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post #35 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Beveridge
So a failure in one region means the product is a failure overall? VCD for example was/is huge in Asia but has almost no presence in the US outside of some early porn releases around DVDs arrival and beforehand. is VCD a failure then?

It's sad when people fail to realize the world is bigger than them and their personal experiences.
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post #36 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 07:10 PM
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The other part that gets me is where it says that the product didn't go in the intended direction of its creators. How many times has that happened before and the product was better for it?
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post #37 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 07:38 PM
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I don't think Sony would consider 'popular in Japan' and 'somewhat popular in the UK from 1998-2001' as this ALLLLL encompassing success.

We can debate this all day using a variety of metrics, objective and subjective. My personal measurement of success/failure is this:

Sony's sales of MD (in the ENTIRE WORLD) fell quite short of their expectations for MD. I don't believe people remember MD very well, or that even in it's 'heyday' (did it have one?) it was much more than a niche market.

Look, the whole point of this is that Sony is a brand notorious for pumping their own proprietary formats, running with them way past their expiration dates, and then moving on to another format. I'm sorry, but whether or not this is the truth, people DO believe this...and it's easy to understand why:

The biggest comparison people make is Betamax, very easy to understand why this is brought up as well. Then there's the easy to fall back on MiniDisc (go do your own research, but honestly, this is one of a list of many) along with another personal favorite...UMD.

Now I hear a lot about how you just can't compare UMD to BR. Duh. My point is not that UMD was even a success/failure/whatever but that it strengthens my argument that Sony likes to create their own proprietary formats for no real reason. Sony has the Memory Stick (yet another format) which could be utilized in the PSP for movies. A solution ONE THOUSAND TIMES better than UMD was to offer an 'iTunes' type store for movie downloads on Memory Sticks. Was the technology there? Yes! Would this have been better than ... yet another proprietary format... YES! But how better to capture the handheld market by supporting one of your own proprietary formats *AND* introducing yet another one AT THE SAME TIME!! GENIUS!

Lessee...what else...oh yeah, SACD, and then there's...oh yeah, LS-120 Superdrives. While I'm not sure if Sony actually had much of a hand in PRODUCING these drives or their research I remember them being a major financial backer and doing a LOT of the marketing for LS-120's.
-----
Now, back on to my *FINAL* point. I believe that Sony being one of THE biggest backers of BR is not helping the format any. There is ALWAYS the little asterisk...that little mark in every single full-scale (read: comprehensive) review of BR mentioning past Sony failures. It is not a stretch for people to take what is known about the PS3--delays and costs are directly related to the incorporation of BR, see HD DVD which did make an earlier US release date, and go 'ohhhh noooo....not again.'

While that reaction may not be as much as a deciding factore for some people, it is hard for me to believe that that reaction is not present (from the tiniest trepidation to the most overblown fears) in every single person when they sit down and think...

HD DVD

or

Blu-ray

???

Hmmm (and this Hmmm is not me implying anything about any of these formats, it's just that someone is thinking about both formats and trying to make a decision...--as in 'Hmmmm,' I have to make these comments because this fake war on the forums is 100x as bad as the real format war right now).

edit:

And to further drive my point home I'm curious if anyone else can think of another company who has introduced just soooo many failed mediums over such a long period of time?? I mean yeah, a lot of companies made some pretty poor decisions or tried to come up with some junky iPod rip-off MP3 player, but is there anyone with such a HISTORY of it? Philips had CD-I (I guess VCD could get thrown in with it, but the success of that is debatable), Laserdiscs (again debatable, more of a niche market and compared to D-VHS just leaps and bounds more successful). I really just can't remember any one particular company (particularly one that should just be making TVs, computers, and other electronics-type devices) coming up with soooo many failed MEDIUMS (not products, MEDIUMS).

Quote:
Originally Posted by briankmonkey
It's sad when people fail to realize the world is bigger than them and their personal experiences.
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post #38 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankmonkey
It's sad when people fail to realize the world is bigger than them and their personal experiences.
I agree BM...I agree. :)
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post #39 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boden11
Only in a BR forum would you have such a Sony fanboy arguing how MD was not a failure.
Besides flaming those who disagree with your rather narrow definition of success why did you even bring this topic up? Is their some requirement I haven't heard that at least one person must troll every new Blu-ray thread made?


Quote:
Originally Posted by boden11
Would you consider BR a success if Sony sells tons of PS3s and manages to make a profit off of it...even if HD DVD defeats BR ...??
If that happened it would be a success for the PS3 and a failure for Blu-ray as a video format. Personally speaking I think both will be successful.


Quote:
Originally Posted by boden11
Look, the whole point of this is that Sony is a brand notorious for pumping their own proprietary formats, running with them way past their expiration dates, and then moving on to another format.
Sony is very innovative and brings a lot of new products to market. Some are home runs and some are failures and I find it strange that some people only remember the failures.


Quote:
Originally Posted by boden11
Now, back on to my *FINAL* point. I believe that Sony being one of THE biggest backers of BR is not helping the format any.
I think a company that is both a major CE manufacturer and a movie studio could help a video format a great deal. Of course it also helps that Blu-ray has several of both.
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post #40 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 08:43 PM
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The point was made at the conclusion of my previous post (the post previous to this one). I will restate in in very brief terms--Sony has a history of inventing proprietary FORMATS and MEDIUMS that fail.

I have no qualms with Sony or ANY COMPANY in regards to bringing new PRODUCTS to market. I loved Sony's super-fine pitch XBR CRTs and actually regret not getting their 34XS955 model. I also love how Nintendo's diss of Sony's CD system brought about the PS and all sorts of other things Sony does.

Let me ask you now...did you read my post? My post was regarding companies bringing new proprietary FORMATS and MEDIUMS into the marketplace with really little to no justification. Yes, I'm sure that all (well maybe except Memory Stick or UMD) had some really good rational and sounded ok. But honestly, it is very peculiar for one company to have such a long entrenched history of ...

let me put it bluntly

having a love affair with proprietary FORMATS.

I mean at the end of my post I wrote how I personally can't remember any one single company bringing out soooooo many failed FORMATS and MEDIUMS as Sony has over the years. Did you read my post??? (Hint: I capitalized the words I think deserve extra attention, and if you haven't figured it out by now there is a difference between a new PRODUCT and a new MEDIUM or FORMAT. My Microsoft optical mouse was a new PRODUCT...the fact that it uses USB 2.0 is its transport MEDIUM).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Besides flaming those who disagree with your rather narrow definition of success why did you even bring this topic up? Is their some requirement I haven't heard that at least one person must troll every new Blu-ray thread made?

Sony is very innovative and brings a lot of new products to market. Some are home runs and some are failures and I find it strange that some people only remember the failures.

I think a company that is both a major CE manufacturer and a movie studio could help a video format a great deal. Of course it also helps that Blu-ray has several of both.
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post #41 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 09:30 PM
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1) There's no such thing as a free lunch, so at the very best (for consumers) Sony will be eating all costs of distributing BD movies w/games. Regardless of HOW they do it, if they do it there will be a cost involved.
do you realize that replication is less then 2$ a disk? there is no cost to eat.
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post #42 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 10:34 PM
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MD is no where near a failure. Its still around and people still use it. Here is a picture of the Console from the New for the Japan 06 Lexus IS350

http://lexus.jp/models/is/comfort/navigation.html

Notice the BIG MD letters there. Why would they include a failed format in their brand new tech heavy car?
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post #43 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boden11
The point was made at the conclusion of my previous post (the post previous to this one). I will restate in in very brief terms--Sony has a history of inventing proprietary FORMATS and MEDIUMS that fail.

...if you haven't figured it out by now there is a difference between a new PRODUCT and a new MEDIUM or FORMAT. My Microsoft optical mouse was a new PRODUCT...the fact that it uses USB 2.0 is its transport MEDIUM).

Sony receivers accept composite/S-video/optical inputs... whats your point? MS xbox controllers are not USB. The MS Xbox 360 uses a proprietary connector for AV, which isnt compatable with the old xbox.

And so what ....sony likes to introduce new formats. As long as it brings ideas and innovation I am all for it. Sure they will have some failures, but I am glad that the failures dont stop them from searching for success.
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post #44 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 11:05 PM
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Again, this was my point about the lots of format failures...read the whole post:

Now, back on to my *FINAL* point. I believe that Sony being one of THE biggest backers of BR is not helping the format any. There is ALWAYS the little asterisk...that little mark in every single full-scale (read: comprehensive) review of BR mentioning past Sony failures. It is not a stretch for people to take what is known about the PS3--delays and costs are directly related to the incorporation of BR, see HD DVD which did make an earlier US release date, and go 'ohhhh noooo....not again.'

While that reaction may not be as much as a deciding factore for some people, it is hard for me to believe that that reaction is not present (from the tiniest trepidation to the most overblown fears) in every single person when they sit down and think...

HD DVD

or

Blu-ray


Quote:
Originally Posted by tqlla
Sony receivers accept composite/S-video/optical inputs... whats your point? MS xbox controllers are not USB. The MS Xbox 360 uses a proprietary connector for AV, which isnt compatable with the old xbox.

And so what ....sony likes to introduce new formats. As long as it brings ideas and innovation I am all for it. Sure they will have some failures, but I am glad that the failures dont stop them from searching for success.
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post #45 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amillians

1080P output of any flavor over component is verboten for AACS content. It's very important for PS3 purchasers who want to get their 1080p freak on (for movies) to know which SKU to buy.
Which is why I find it funny that Sony has stressed in almost every PS3 interview that component can do 1080p.

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post #46 of 51 Old 09-19-2006, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boden11
Only in a BR forum would you have such a Sony fanboy arguing how MD was not a failure.
Let me guess: American?

You couldn't find these MD players anywhere in north america at the height of the craze, but japan, and parts of south east asia it actually had a large following and enjoyed a healthy market. Compared to DAT and DCC, one has to agree MD was judged a success (just not in america).

The thing that really killed MD was combination of mp3/napster/cheap CD-R. Once music became free, it was hard for any other format to compete with free even in asia.

In fact, you could claim that mp3 players are killing CDs and you'd be right. In that sense, CDs are also a failure (by today's consideration), primarily because of mp3s and inability to protect the content.

By similar measure, DVDs can be considered a failure [today] since any content released on any DVD is basically now wide-open. And there are wide open retail DVD piracy in most major metropolitan areas in North America if you know where to look.

There was a time when DVD and CD formats were not failures, just as there was a time when the analog cassette tape or the 8-track tape were not failures. But all technology eventually die off. Someday, both BD and HD-DVD will die too, lets just hope its not too soon and something better replaces them.
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post #47 of 51 Old 09-20-2006, 12:27 AM
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Just when I was reading your post and beginning to agree with what you had to say I stumbled upon this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo1965
By similar measure, DVDs can be considered a failure [today] since any content released on any DVD is basically now wide-open. And there are wide open retail DVD piracy in most major metropolitan areas in North America if you know where to look.

There was a time when DVD and CD formats were not failures, just .....

You know, we can argue the merits of BR vs HD DVD all you want (and we do...to a sickening extent) but seriously dude...

How can you say that DVD and CD formats are failures? Despite their current technological shortcomings and piracy problems, CDs and DVDs remain THE most popular mediums for music and videos. If you take a look at the digital bits you can see that over 110,000,000 DVD players have been sold in the USA to date. The last month they have data for (Jul 06) there were sales of almost 1.5 million! Compare that to current HD DVD and BR player sales and you can see their relatively small market penetration. The fact that CD fought off DVD-A and SACD without batting an EYE shows you its very strong popularity. And there's also a lot of people here on the forums (and out there in real life) that believe HD DVD vs BR could reach another similar stalemate.
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post #48 of 51 Old 09-20-2006, 01:43 AM
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There are some interesting points here about success in markets.

Success in the USA can be profitable but does that constitute sucess for a global company?

I just want to point out a few things. To someone here in Australia if I work for a day and get say $400 I go and buy a can of coke it costs AUD$2.

When i was in the states on holiday that same thing happens. But the can of coke is $1.

Our exchange rate is roughly 25% lower than yours. So It cost me $1.33 aussie to buy the same thing in the US.

What relevance is this you may well ask? People in the states have the same perceived value for a dollar as we do here.

I make a dollar, I spend a dollar. Its the same in the US and here.

The Bluray players in the US are MSRP USD $1000. They are telling us now the Aussie versions of the SAMSUNG are going to cost around $1600-1800. The Panasonic even more.

Guys I can guarrantee you. If you all recon USD $1000 is stupid for a player. Have you got any idea how marginalized a bluray player will be here at $1800?

Fact is they will sell bugger all players into this market at that price point. Even the low end HD-dvd player is going to be $1000 here.

I can tell you for a fact. If they recon HD-dvd or Blueray is going to succeed here at that price point they can forget it. I beleive that the market conditions in Europe will be similar.

The market for over AUD $1000 players here is microscopic.

I would suggest that ALL the HD formats are going to have problems elsewhere in the world getting any market share from DVD if the player price is as stupid as it is obviously going to be.

If they predict 5 years before HD formats are common place in the USA. I would suggest that this is closer to 10 years in other parts of the world.

All can say is roll on the Chinese player in both formats. These large CE companies know only too well they will not win any format fight with stupidly priced players as this is shaping up to be.

If a significant time occurs between a HD-dvd and a Bluray player at $100 price point. The first format there will win this war, regardless of content. Mr Average is used to paying sub $100 for a disk player. They dont see the difference so why would they bother?

These are the people who think the current bargain price that DVD's are selling for is a great idea and are happy as a pig in *****.

All this at the same time I am happily selling off a lot of my DVD collection to buy HD-dvd's!

Graham
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post #49 of 51 Old 09-20-2006, 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Johnson
All this at the same time I am happily selling off a lot of my DVD collection to buy HD-dvd's!
Different region, different news.

When a format gets commoditised (like the Chinese brands of DVDs), it's time for the CE manufacturers to bail. They can't keep up with the cost of goods manufactured there.

Having said that, here DVD players is about to phase out VCD players. They are pretty cheap and disposable. An electric kettle is sometimes more expensive. But while the sales are big for DVD players, VCD still outsells DVD by 20:1. It may take 10 years before BD replaces DVD, and by which point the population here may still watch VCDs!

In Oz, there is no VCD market. It's either VHS, which is dying off, and DVD. They are marketed accordingly to the cost of living of Australians. Similarly with BD and HD-DVD, though currently the pricing is more toward early adopters.

The point is to get to be a mass market product, which neither BD nor HD-DVD is yet, will take some time. If you're not an early adopter with an early adopter budget, there's really no such luck.


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post #50 of 51 Old 09-20-2006, 02:37 AM
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I think the fact that the DVD Forum just approved Chinese manufacture of HD DVD players may (read: will) have an effect in the future.

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post #51 of 51 Old 09-20-2006, 06:23 AM
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Please limit any and all Playstaion posts to the sticky:

One and Only PS3 as Blu-Ray Player Thread, and limit posts to that subject

Please no other PS3 posts in this forum

Thanks

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