"Here Comes Blu-Ray" 1000 MGM title ready for Blu-ray - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WriteSimple
Please don't do a smackdown before reading the finer details of what I posted.

LOTR ROTK 250 mins x 60 secs = 15000
Video in VC-1 14 Mbps (average) - 15000 x 14 Mbps Average bitrate / 8 bits = 26.25 GB

So LOTR FOTR (video at 26.25 GB) using TrueHD 5.1 = 26.25 + 6.375 = 32.625 GB
Using TrueHD 6.1 = 26.25 + 7.547 = 33.797 GB

So there you go. LOTR EEs calculated disc space.


fuad
Batman Begins was encoded at 10 Mbps average and many who have it already are claiming it is reference quality. If the same could be achieved with FOTR, that would bring the video space to 18.749 and 25.124 total.
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post #62 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efranzen
Batman Begins was encoded at 10 Mbps average and many who have it already are claiming it is reference quality. If the same could be achieved with FOTR, that would bring the video space to 18.749 and 25.124 total.
I agree. We also should not assume that no further improvements will be made with VC-1. By the time that NL decides to release LOTR in HD, it may well be possible to do reference quality encodes at substantially less than 10Mbps
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post #63 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 02:59 PM
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Yeah! That's what I want. LOTR EE's HD in less that 10Mbps. :rolleyes:

Actually, do you think they could get it under 8 Mbps because I'd REALLY love that! :eek: :rolleyes:

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post #64 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plazman
Fuad, Why did you use 14Mbps for video when BB is at 12 Mbps :confused:

BB PQ looks spectacular :)
Well I could use 4Mbps if you want, then HD-DVD can just use 15GB discs.

It's a number based on average bitrate of HD-DVDs. Since I'm not Amir or in the VC-1 team, I can't foretell how much lower they can get with their codec. So I played it safe. But if you guys want 4Mbps video, that's fine by me.

By the way, that's primary audio and video and no extras. Not even a menu system.


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post #65 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell
Yeah! That's what I want. LOTR EE's HD in less that 10Mbps. :rolleyes:

Actually, do you think they could get it under 8 Mbps because I'd REALLY love that! :eek: :rolleyes:
You know what I'd really love, if they could use a aging, decrepit codec and single layer disks combined with PCM on the disk, that'd really be awesome!

Seriously, what's with the hate of compression efficiency? When did AVS become populated with Luddites? You are never going to get an uncompressed HD video source (even the masters are compressed), why not trust the guys doing the encodes and improving the codecs and let the chips fall where they may?
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post #66 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efranzen
Batman Begins was encoded at 10 Mbps average and many who have it already are claiming it is reference quality. If the same could be achieved with FOTR, that would bring the video space to 18.749 and 25.124 total.
IF VC-1 can do the encode at 10mpbs. We'll see. As I recall, Batman Begins and the extras of hundreds are not wearing chainmail.


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post #67 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orogogus
Seriously, what's with the hate of compression efficiency? When did AVS become populated with Luddites? You are never going to get an uncompressed HD video source (even the masters are compressed), why not trust the guys doing the encodes and improving the codecs and let the chips fall where they may?
Amen. What does it matter if it's 20, 15, 10, or - heaven forbid - 8 Mbps as long as the end result is reference quality HD?
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post #68 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WriteSimple
IF VC-1 can do the encode at 10mpbs. We'll see. As I recall, Batman Begins and the extras of hundreds are not wearing chainmail.


fuad
You seen Fast and the Furious: Tokyo Drift? I just watched that last night and all the parts flying, cars racing, crowds cheering, NOT ONE ARTIFACT. Phantom of the Opera had dancing, audience, crowds, crashing chandelier, all without artifacts. I don't think LOTR will prove to be an unsurmountable challenge for Amir, CJPlay, Ben, and their crew. They'll be up to the task. HD DVD has me believing, nothing they've done has had me question that they can't. TrueHD will probably be 16/48 and that will create extra headroom. As long as its mastered properly, it will sound better than anything we'll hear for a while. Phantom of the Opera sounded fantastic at that and I doubt LOTR would stand to do worse.

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post #69 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roma_victor
Amen. What does it matter if it's 20, 15, 10, or - heaven forbid - 8 Mbps as long as the end result is reference quality HD?
It matters because of the capacity. You either have the entire movie in one disc or two.

For the studios, the extra disc matters because of the packaging. The packaging matters because it adds weight. Weight matters because it drives transportation costs up.


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post #70 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 04:26 PM
 
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fuad, let's just say I watched BB last night and it was superior to anything I have seen on BD - including Tears of The Sun, which I thought would pass for a decent HD DVD title.

So 12 Mbps on VC-1 looks better than anything put out independent of Mbps on BD.....

I'm curious (as you are) to see how 50GB Click or BHD looks compared to BB or KK....higher bit rate mpeg v more efficient VC-1 encode....should tell us if BD has a future. If there is little or no difference (as I expect) it'll look bad for Sony and mpeg 2 and $1,000+ BD players etc...my 2 cents.

These titles on 50 GB better be excellent and better sell a lot once the BD players from Sony, Panny and Pio hit starting later this month....
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post #71 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 04:30 PM
 
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In the case of DVD there is a novelty for special edition - 2 & 3 disk sets - even if 2-3 disks are not always needed. However, feature movie should fit on one disk.....IMHO.

1x 50 GB may cost more than 2x 25 GB disks.
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post #72 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plazman
In the case of DVD there is a novelty for special edition - 2 & 3 disk sets - even if 2-3 disks are not always needed. However, feature movie should fit on one disk.....IMHO.

1x 50 GB may cost more than 2x 25 GB disks.
While I agree fully that feature films should fit on one disc, no one seemed to complain too much when LOTR:EE was split over 2 disc. Everyone had their jaws too wide open to complain.

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post #73 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plazman
In the case of DVD there is a novelty for special edition - 2 & 3 disk sets - even if 2-3 disks are not always needed. However, feature movie should fit on one disk.....IMHO.
The second disc of BBegins on DVD could easily have fit on 1 disc, if Warner wanted to. They didn't.

Quote:
1x 50 GB may cost more than 2x 25 GB disks.
And you based this assumption on how 30GB HD-DVDs costs more than twice 15GB HD-DVDs cost?


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post #74 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 04:41 PM
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Seems to me the only common sense statement to make as far as a HD-on-disc 'wish list' would be:

1) The underlying format has the largest capacity possible to allow for the most headroom--for any number of reasons.

2) The HD transfers are immaculate. Avoid garbage in - garbage out.

3) The compression technology used is the right balance of quality and efficiency.

4) Studio support. It's much ado about nothing if you don't have content you want to watch to start with.

5) Hardware that offers full support for the entirety of the format spec and all its bells and whistles.

...And all that at a reasonable price. These could be placed in an order of your choosing as far as priorities, but, in my mind, they are all crucial to any independent assessment of the superior HD-on-disc format.

And the processes are going to take time to show their potential. And even longer to get truly reasonable in price. By reasonable in price, I mean, without sly 'take-a-loss' hardware underpricing, without laborious encoding being underwritten by donated time/services, etc. The disc yields will need to come down, the new components will need to get cheaper--the whole damn thing needs to commodify on a grand scale.

This will only happen when the HD-on-disc goes mainstream and there can be true economies of scale. If you are somehow delusional and think you "Mr. HD Enthusiast Early Adopter Stud" mean squat just because you ran out and bought something in June, you're wrong. You were in the beta cycle, and helpful to both camps, for sure...but you're not deciding anything.

Whoever fulfills the checklist above will fullfill the promise of HD-on-disc. Whether they win the marketing war ('hearts and minds') is another question. But any true HD proponent, who wants the most advanced quality experience IN THE LONG RUN, will have to explain to me why we should sacrifice any points on the checklist above. Otherwise, you have nothing but an emotional opinion to offer on this thread or any other in the forum...nothing else.

In short: you fanboys who don't want to face reality need to go find another place to give each other bloody noses. Adults here want to have a conversation.

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post #75 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceflow
While I agree fully that feature films should fit on one disc, no one seemed to complain too much when LOTR:EE was split over 2 disc. Everyone had their jaws too wide open to complain.
That's because when the theatrical version was released, we noticed that EE had another meaning. Adding DTS and three audio commentary tracks and the extended run time is going to push DVD9 off the ledge so we didn't have much qualm because the thought of DVD9 used for all of that meant even worse PQ.

With BD, we can just sit back and enjoy.


fuad

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post #76 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roma_victor
I agree. We also should not assume that no further improvements will be made with VC-1. By the time that NL decides to release LOTR in HD, it may well be possible to do reference quality encodes at substantially less than 10Mbps
Who said 10Mbps for BB? Did someone apply my track math to it and find out?
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post #77 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cjplay
Who said 10Mbps for BB? Did someone apply my track math to it and find out?
I merely quoted post #60 above, but of course would defer to you.
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post #78 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 06:30 PM
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[quote=WriteSimple]I guess you didn't latch on to the fact that movies by Fox and MGM won't be coming to HD-DVD soon.

Remember that "pledging support" to BR means just that. There is nothing binding them other than a handshake. Fox also "pledged support" to that format that competed with DVD, did it not? And last time I checked, all that new support has done absolutely squat for titles available and titles announced (76 HD-DVD vs. 45 BR discs out now, 107 HD-DVD vs 71 BR discs announced). The gap hasn't changed at all. Plus check out those sales stats at thedvdwars.com. Its a good old fashion butt-kicking.

So my message is: Wait and get back to me in about 3-6 months about that wonderful exclusive studio support will ya? Studious go where the money is...regardless of pledges and promises. Besides WAITING 3-6 months should mean nothing since BR keeps telling you to wait as well-for the greater good (for HD-DVD level pic quality, for advanced audio codecs, for a SONY player-that won't play CDs, for every player that has been delayed, for more BR diodes, for standardization of specs for players and discs, for DL discs, for players to approach HD-DVD player prices--oh wait they, haven't promised that!) Although, I guess you won't have to wait for that region-coding much longer.

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post #79 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wait and get back to me in about 3-6 months about that good old fashion butt-kicking.

I can't wait to see the number of HD-DVD players sold at that time compared to the number of blu-ray players sold. Short-sited people may be in for a major revelation. I will not be suprised though :p
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post #80 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WriteSimple
That's because when the theatrical version was released, we noticed that EE had another meaning. Adding DTS and three audio commentary tracks and the extended run time is going to push DVD9 off the ledge so we didn't have much qualm because the thought of DVD9 used for all of that meant even worse PQ.

With BD, we can just sit back and enjoy.


fuad
Didn't the recent LOTR SD DVD release that had the EE's branched with the theatricals? One disc for the feature according to the packaging and one disc for the extras. Sounds like pretty svelt packaging to me. What was missing from them? The DVD was 2 DVD18's and they still dropped the DTS track? I don't get it... Maybe DTS doesn't branch?

LOTR:ROTK:EE is over 4 hours long. Do I think one HD30 will work for it? it'll be tight, but it could. No lossless audio, though. Maybe some 20-bit DD+? With BD, you'd get one lossless track and some standard audio, but with a muxed BR approaching 27.210, so VC-1 or AVC would be a must

Back to the topic, BB was low, but it wasn't 10Mbps. Just use my track math from the Insider's Thead and you should find out. I... just... can't... say... it.... :confused:

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post #81 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cjplay
Who said 10Mbps for BB? Did someone apply my track math to it and find out?
Sorry Cjplay, my quote above of 10 Mbps for BB above was wrong. I had asked Amir awhile back which low bitrate film he was most proud of. I just found his response to that question where he answered that BB was the best he'd seen so far and that it was encoded at 12-13 Mbps average.

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8350858
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post #82 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam
AS per normal - certain posters tend to change the wording and meaning of the stories they highlight....

The story actually quoted MGM as having 1000 titles in Hidef already - most likely in an archive format such as HD D5.

These are not ready for Bluray - they are ready to be converted to any format they choose to support....

Nice...
here is the exact quote:

Quote:
Speaking of MGM, that company's video division is now being headed by Eric Doctorow (formerly of Paramount), who paid a visit to last week's retail summit. Doctorow has put together a dedicated team of individuals to run the MGM unit that has been set up through Twentieth Century Fox. Doctorow announced that MGM has 1000 titles already transferred to high definition and ready to go on Blu-Ray.
AS per normal - certain posters tend to change the wording and meaning of the stories they highlight.... :rolleyes:
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post #83 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cjplay
Didn't the recent LOTR SD DVD release that had the EE's branched with the theatricals? One disc for the feature according to the packaging and one disc for the extras. Sounds like pretty svelt packaging to me. What was missing from them? The DVD was 2 DVD18's and they still dropped the DTS track? I don't get it... Maybe DTS doesn't branch?
I'm not sure if DTS doesn't branch but I'm pretty sure that there is a bit bucket problem just to include the halfbitrate DTS in there. You either do the branching or the DTS. Something has to give. The one thing I don't like about DVD18 is that you don't get any artwork.

Quote:
LOTR:ROTK:EE is over 4 hours long. Do I think one HD30 will work for it? it'll be tight, but it could. No lossless audio, though. Maybe some 20-bit DD+? With BD, you'd get one lossless track and some standard audio, but with a muxed BR approaching 27.210, so VC-1 or AVC would be a must
As I stated in my earlier post, with DD+ I believe it's possible. But knowing the fans here, and really the score alone deserves lossless audio, you don't want to be skimping on the audio.

My calculations are based on the PDF. I couldn't find the average bitrate for 20/48 stream though. And the calculations is really for a HD-DVD-to-BD port, knowing that this is a New Line title.


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post #84 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cjplay
Didn't the recent LOTR SD DVD release that had the EE's branched with the theatricals? One disc for the feature according to the packaging and one disc for the extras. Sounds like pretty svelt packaging to me. What was missing from them? The DVD was 2 DVD18's and they still dropped the DTS track? I don't get it... Maybe DTS doesn't branch?:
I think WriteSimple probably hit on it. One of those dirty little secrets about bandwidth. I bet one particular person doesn't want to include branching in the bandwidth discussion because it is likely that in the future we will have multiple versions of movies on discs with branching, and branching stresses the bandwidth. As you know, there can only be so much coming of the disc at a time (this applies to DVD, HD DVD, and Blu-ray) and if you branch, there is no way to maintain the peak rate for both branches (or likely either branch).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cjplay
Back to the topic, BB was low, but it wasn't 10Mbps. Just use my track math from the Insider's Thead and you should find out. I... just... can't... say... it.... :confused:
Is 12.6Mbps close?

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post #85 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankmonkey
Wait and get back to me in about 3-6 months about that good old fashion butt-kicking.

I can't wait to see the number of HD-DVD players sold at that time compared to the number of blu-ray players sold. Short-sited people may be in for a major revelation. I will not be suprised though :p
Are you talking about standalone players or games? There is a difference, even though you can't seem to see it.

The number of standalone players by HD-DVD will make BR look like a non-starter. Just as it does now. No way average joe is going to pay 1300.00 for a BR player. If they can even get one within the next 3-6 months. Remember, they can't sell the $1000.00 player now in any quantity at all.
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post #86 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 10:48 PM
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LOTR EEs at 12.6 Mbps.
LOTR FOTR 208 mins x 60 secs = 12480 secs
Video in VC-1 12.6 Mbps (average) - 12480 x 12.6 Mbps Average bitrate / 8 bits = 19.656 GB

LOTR TT 214 mins x 60 secs = 12840 secs
Video in VC-1 12.6 Mbps (average) - 12840 x 12.6 Mbps Average bitrate / 8 bits = 20.223 GB

LOTR ROTK 250 mins x 60 secs = 15000
Video in VC-1 12.6 Mbps (average) - 15000 x 12.6 Mbps Average bitrate / 8 bits = 23.625 GB


So LOTR FOTR (video at 21.84 GB) using TrueHD 5.1 = 19.656 + 5.304 = 24.96 GB
Using TrueHD 6.1 = 19.656 + 6.279 = 25.935 GB

So LOTR TT(video at 22.47 GB) using TrueHD 5.1 = 20.223 + 5.457 = 25.68GB
Using TrueHD 6.1 = 20.223 + 6.46 = 26.683 GB

So LOTR ROTK (video at 26.25 GB) using TrueHD 5.1 = 23.625 + 6.375 = 30 GB
Using TrueHD 6.1 = 23.625 + 7.547 = 31.172 GB

LOTR EEs calculated disc space. Guess it needs to be lower than 12.6 Mpbs for VC-1 video.


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post #87 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WriteSimple
LOTR EEs at 12.6 Mbps.
LOTR FOTR 208 mins x 60 secs = 12480 secs
Video in VC-1 12.6 Mbps (average) - 12480 x 12.6 Mbps Average bitrate / 8 bits = 19.656 GB

LOTR TT 214 mins x 60 secs = 12840 secs
Video in VC-1 12.6 Mbps (average) - 12840 x 12.6 Mbps Average bitrate / 8 bits = 20.223 GB

LOTR ROTK 250 mins x 60 secs = 15000
Video in VC-1 12.6 Mbps (average) - 15000 x 12.6 Mbps Average bitrate / 8 bits = 23.625 GB


So LOTR FOTR (video at 21.84 GB) using TrueHD 5.1 = 19.656 + 5.304 = 24.96 GB
Using TrueHD 6.1 = 19.656 + 6.279 = 25.935 GB

So LOTR TT(video at 22.47 GB) using TrueHD 5.1 = 20.223 + 5.457 = 25.68GB
Using TrueHD 6.1 = 20.223 + 6.46 = 26.683 GB

So LOTR ROTK (video at 26.25 GB) using TrueHD 5.1 = 23.625 + 6.375 = 30 GB
Using TrueHD 6.1 = 23.625 + 7.547 = 31.172 GB

LOTR EEs calculated disc space. Guess it needs to be lower than 12.6 Mpbs for VC-1 video.


fuad
Fuad, Dont forget when these titles eventually come out... Im hoping we have discrete 7.1(at the least)....
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post #88 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 11:25 PM
 
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Are you talking about standalone players or games? There is a difference, even though you can't seem to see it.

The number of standalone players by HD-DVD will make BR look like a non-starter. Just as it does now. No way average joe is going to pay 1300.00 for a BR player. If they can even get one within the next 3-6 months. Remember, they can't sell the $1000.00 player now in any quantity at all.
ummm....yeah right. You honestly believe that people will line up in droves to get $1000+ BD players when HD-DVD has a great buzz on the street....is half the cost...and BD is still be bludgeoned with bad press?

Your crazy.
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post #89 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 11:42 PM
 
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ummm....yeah right. You honestly believe that people will line up in droves to get $1000+ BD players when HD-DVD has a great buzz on the street....is half the cost...
Just a quick question. If HD-DVD is "half the cost", why is Toshiba going to be selling a $1000 player? Price gouging? And you left out the $500 PS3 for some odd reason.

You HD-DVD supporters really need to update your talking points! :D
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post #90 of 100 Old 10-05-2006, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by shamus1099
Fuad, Dont forget when these titles eventually come out... Im hoping we have discrete 7.1(at the least)....
Oh I don't know. Peter Jackson is involved with MS and their Halo project. Maybe 7.1 LOTR won't come into being.

But 7.1 is an interesting evolution of sound.


fuad

"DonÂt let them tell you who you are is not enough, that itÂs wrong and that you wonÂt find love. DonÂt let them use my life to put your future down, or tell you that happiness canÂt be found."
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