Blu-ray player profiles explained in detail - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 289 Old 07-04-2007, 03:49 PM
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ok i have a question: if the bd dvd is recorded in DTS-HD lossless and i channel it through my Multi-channel analog is this the same as dd5.1 pcm?

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post #32 of 289 Old 07-04-2007, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronS View Post

Would that be true for sound tracks that the player itself did not have native support for, such as DTS-MA?

Just because a player can not decode DTS-HD MA doesn't mean that it couldn't output the bitstream using a HDMI 1.3 output.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronS View Post

I thought the "legacy" DD and DTS were passed by the optical or coaxial digital connections, not HDMI. Does it pass on both?

Yes, and HDMI has always been capable of transferring Dolby Digital and DTS as bitstream. You can also send the advanced audio codecs as PCM audio if the player can decode them or as bitstream with HDMI 1.3.


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Originally Posted by AaronS View Post

I also understand that even the "legacy" DD and DTS are at a higher bit rate than DVD tracks? Is that correct? Is the difference audible?

Dolby Digital can be at a higher bit rate with Blu-ray (640 Kbps) than it can with DVD (448 Kbps). DTS is a bit more complex since 1.5 Mbps DTS was used with DVD but only for a very small number of titles. In fact I believe that we now have more movies using 1.5 Mbps DTS audio tracks with Blu-ray than we have with DVD. As for that last question I personally would say yes.


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Originally Posted by AaronS View Post

When I read that HDMI is passing lossless PCM signals from BD players, my assumption is that this has to be across the HDMI connection as the optical or coaxial connections do not have the bandwidth to pass such signals. If that is the case, I would presume that the AVR has to have a special decoder to accept those signals across HDMI and output it as 5.1-7.1 sound, is that correct? If so, is that a common capability of AVRs?

Most of the new AV receivers with HDMI inputs coming out this year can accept multi-channel PCM audio but some of the very cheap AV receivers with HDMI inputs only switch the signal and do not decode the audio sent over HDMI.


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Originally Posted by AaronS View Post

I plan on purchasing either a Denon 4308 or 3808 AVR, or possibly one of the new 8xx or 9xx Onkyo receivers. From the specs I have read on these, they should be able to decode all the audio codecs that I am aware of currently.

Yes, from what I know of those AV receivers that is correct.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronS View Post

I am just trying to understand if any existing BD player will be able to output a sound track to one of these AVRs to be properly decoded and played on my speakers, or if I will need a 1.1 or Live spec BD player to achieve this.

A BD-Video 1.0 player with HDMI 1.3 capability can be capable of that for Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA though it has yet to be confirmed for the Samsung BD-P1200.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronS View Post

It would seem to me that what I really want is a BD Live specification player. Any estimated dates for the first of these?

No, not yet.
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post #33 of 289 Old 07-04-2007, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronS View Post

I thought the "legacy" DD and DTS were passed by the optical or coaxial digital connections, not HDMI. Does it pass on both? Is that selectable, or does it just go out all possible connections?

DD and DTS may also be passed via HDMI. If all digital audio outputs are lit up simultaneously or not is a player manufacturer decision. In general though, they try to have all A/V outputs live all the time so the user gets audio and video no matter how they hook it up the first time.
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post #34 of 289 Old 07-04-2007, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzerxxx View Post

Why do some (all ??) standalone players suffer from very slow load times with certain titles i.e. POTC DMC ? Does this disc require features that are not supported or is it just using more standard BD-J features that overwhelm the player ?

The faster the CPU in the player, the snappier the BD-J and AACS features are. That said, software is being continously optmized to perform faster.
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post #35 of 289 Old 07-04-2007, 06:01 PM
 
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Richard,

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, etc....
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post #36 of 289 Old 07-05-2007, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

The faster the CPU in the player, the snappier the BD-J and AACS features are. That said, software is being continously optmized to perform faster.

Thanks Keith

I thought it might be a horsepower thing from some of the posts I'd read. I guess that also explains why it runs great on the PS3.

My concern is that whilst BD-J is "standard" some current and possible future titles may be problematic on current standalone players. I guess it depends on how creative the studios want to be but could we end up with a situation were even titles that don't require profile 1.1 or 2 have performance issues running on current standalone players ?

Dazzer
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post #37 of 289 Old 07-05-2007, 04:19 AM
 
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"i just bought a s300 however may return it and wait for the s500 rumored to release at years end. it is rumored to have better implimentation of soc and it will be BD1.1 compliant"

Thanks for the advice. I'm not in a big rush and I'm sure it will be worth the wait.
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post #38 of 289 Old 07-05-2007, 09:09 AM
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[quote=Richard Paul]
Yes, and HDMI has always been capable of transferring Dolby Digital and DTS and it is only the newer audio codecs that require a HDMI 1.3 output.
[quote]

As long as the player can decode the signal, HDMI 1.1 and higher can pass advanced audio codecs as PCM.

HDMI 1.3 is only needed to pass the advanced audio codecs to an AVR as bitstream so the AVR can decode them. However, I don't know why this is necessary since all newer players should be able to decode the audio in order to support advanced content like PiP ect.

[quote=Richard Paul]
A BD-Video 1.0 player should be capable of that for Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA though it has yet to be confirmed for the Samsung BD-P1200.
[quote]

I don't believe that all blu-ray players support Dolby TrueHD as yet, though firmware upgrades will hopeful rectify that. DTS-HD is less certain, though you'll still get the DTS core. From what I've read, DTS-HD MA will not be able to be decoded by anything currently out as it has additional hardware requirements. Again, you'll still be able to listen to the DTS core.

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post #39 of 289 Old 07-05-2007, 09:49 AM
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Very informative post, thanks for summarizing. However, the fact that this thread needs to exist to clarify things spells a bit of trouble for BR (how much remains to be seen) . . . while folks here enjoy the details and minutia of things A/V related, the general consuming public . . . not so much. They wanna' buy their electronics cheaply, quickly, and without a whole lot of thought given to what it means. If it says BR player on the front, they're gonnna' think it plays all the features of the BR disc they just bought or are gonna' buy (not a very self-educated buying public, but it is what it is). The sooner BR moves to a single or mostly uniform profile, the better off they and the consuming public will be. I can't see anything about multiple profiles being good for BR (other than the fact that multiple profiles allowed them to release sooner rather than later while they ironed out the details for the remaining specs).
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post #40 of 289 Old 07-05-2007, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khwiggins2 View Post

As long as the player can decode the signal, HDMI 1.1 and higher can pass advanced audio codecs as PCM.

HDMI 1.3 is only needed to pass the advanced audio codecs to an AVR as bitstream so the AVR can decode them.

True, and I should have mentioned that in my answer since it is important to distinguish between bistream and PCM when talking about the advanced audio codecs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by khwiggins2 View Post

However, I don't know why this is necessary since all newer players should be able to decode the audio in order to support advanced content like PiP ect.

Well technically speaking Blu-ray players only need to decode Dolby Digital and DTS which is why audio decoding and player profiles aren't really connected.


Quote:
Originally Posted by khwiggins2 View Post

I don't believe that all blu-ray players support Dolby TrueHD as yet, though firmware upgrades will hopeful rectify that.

In the context of what he was asking he were referring to sending and decoding the bitstream for the advanced audio codecs using an HDMI 1.3 player and HDMI 1.3 AV receiver. I believe the Samsung BD-P1200 should be capable of that based on what we know of the HDMI 1.3 chip it uses.
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post #41 of 289 Old 07-05-2007, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlin21 View Post

"i just bought a s300 however may return it and wait for the s500 rumored to release at years end. it is rumored to have better implimentation of soc and it will be BD1.1 compliant"

Thanks for the advice. I'm not in a big rush and I'm sure it will be worth the wait.

I decided to wait too. I was ready to jump on the Panasonic 10a (at a low price) but then I learned of the conversion to interlaced format then converting back to 1080p.
Maybe another PS3. In the meantime I'll be buying Disney discs as they are simply the best
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post #42 of 289 Old 07-05-2007, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

It is usually called a multi-channel analog output but you are correct that the PS3 does not have that while most stand alone Blu-ray players do. That can be a deciding factor for people depending on the AV receiver that they own.

Guys I don't use analog period. Not the eight cables for each analog multi-channel output. Not the three cables for each analog component video.
Just one HDMI cable for each component eliminates the rats nest and puts Monster out of business. Oh happy day!
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post #43 of 289 Old 07-05-2007, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

Guys I don't use analog period. Not the eight cables for each analog multi-channel output. Not the three cables for each analog component video.
Just one HDMI cable for each component eliminates the rats nest and puts Monster out of business. Oh happy day!

HDMI is the best solution however my avr is not HDMI complient and if i were to buy a new avr it would have to be HDMI 1.3 cpmplient. the analog MCA allows me to enjoy lossless.

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post #44 of 289 Old 07-06-2007, 07:25 AM
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Richard,

A few questions:
  1. Is the BD-Video 1.1 specification currently finalized and approved?
  2. Is the BD-Live specification currently finalized and approved?
  3. What official, at Sony, can we hammer to get an answer about the PS3's capabilities regarding BD-Video 1.1 and BD-Live?
  4. I really think that your original post is VERY awesome! Now, can you explain, possibly by editing your original post, how BD+ is implemented within these specifications? I think I know the answer already, but it should be included here for newbies.
  5. I think I may have missed it. I see that BD-Video 1.1 is mandatory for new players released after Oct. 31, 2007, but is the same true for BD-Live? The statement "After October 31st of 2007 all new Blu-ray players must meet the requirements either for BD-Video 1.1 or for BD-Live..." confused me a little.

Thanks for your time and effort in putting this together.

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post #45 of 289 Old 07-06-2007, 01:22 PM
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BD+ virtual machine (player component) has been present on every player since inception so that's not an issue.
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post #46 of 289 Old 07-06-2007, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell View Post

The statement "After October 31st of 2007 all new Blu-ray players must meet the requirements either for BD-Video 1.1 or for BD-Live..." confused me a little.


i.e. BD-Video 1.1 is mandatory while BD-Live is optional. BD-Live incorporates all of BD-Video 1.1 functionality.
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post #47 of 289 Old 07-06-2007, 02:23 PM
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Has anyone from Sony Entertainment ever mentioned if the PS3 was going to BD-Live/BD 1.1 compliant? I imagine it would be, but I would like to hear it from the horse's mouth...

-Splints
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post #48 of 289 Old 07-06-2007, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell View Post

Is the BD-Video 1.1 specification currently finalized and approved?
Is the BD-Live specification currently finalized and approved?

The Blu-ray player profiles were originally made in the fall of 2005 and are part of the Blu-ray specs. I gave a brief explanation about that in the answer to question 1 in the FAQ.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell View Post

I really think that your original post is VERY awesome! Now, can you explain, possibly by editing your original post, how BD+ is implemented within these specifications? I think I know the answer already, but it should be included here for newbies.

Both AACS and BD+ will be supported in all the Blu-ray players that will be released and are not related to the Blu-ray player profiles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell View Post

I think I may have missed it. I see that BD-Video 1.1 is mandatory for new players released after Oct. 31, 2007, but is the same true for BD-Live? The statement "After October 31st of 2007 all new Blu-ray players must meet the requirements either for BD-Video 1.1 or for BD-Live..." confused me a little.

The answer under question 1 in the FAQ goes into detail about this but I will clarify the original statement.


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Originally Posted by splinters View Post

Has anyone from Sony Entertainment ever mentioned if the PS3 was going to BD-Live/BD 1.1 compliant?

Not yet.
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post #49 of 289 Old 07-08-2007, 12:39 AM
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Is the 64KB storage correct for Profile 1.0 or is it 64MB??
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post #50 of 289 Old 07-08-2007, 08:05 AM
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Thanks, Richard. This was a very informative post.

This makes me wonder, though. It's less than 4 months until the deadline and there are still no official announcements of 1.1 compliant players. Or are there? Will they be able to release new players by that time or will they be delayed? While ignoring the HD camp FUD, I'm afraid this waiting for new specs players affects BD camp sales. I'm sure many people are waiting for 1.1 even if basic BD viewing is fine with 1.0 too.
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post #51 of 289 Old 07-08-2007, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rauer View Post

Thanks, Richard. This was a very informative post.

This makes me wonder, though. It's less than 4 months until the deadline and there are still no official announcements of 1.1 compliant players. Or are there? Will they be able to release new players by that time or will they be delayed? While ignoring the HD camp FUD, I'm afraid this waiting for new specs players affects BD camp sales. I'm sure many people are waiting for 1.1 even if basic BD viewing is fine with 1.0 too.

I'm pretty sure that the date of the standrad represents b) players that are newly released after that date not current units for sale already.
in my opinion the manufactures would be foolish to inform you of this via the announcement of gen3 players.
Sony is rumored to be releasing the new S500 by year end 2007 or early 2008. they are rumored to be b) 1.1 compliant, have better utilization of soc. and be cheaper.

for me it is a gamble. the s300 is a really nice machine at a great price! what i am concerned about is with each generation cost comes into consideration and i am concerned that sony may remove the analog MCA output which is what i need. toshiba did this to be cost effective on thier a2 and a20 line and as such to get uncompressed audio you will need a processor or avr with HDMI connectivity.

since i ended up getting the s300 for 439 and it comes with 2 movies with 5 more by rebate i'll keep it.

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post #52 of 289 Old 07-08-2007, 11:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rauer View Post

Thanks, Richard. This was a very informative post.

This makes me wonder, though. It's less than 4 months until the deadline and there are still no official announcements of 1.1 compliant players. Or are there?

Nothing official yet, but there have been rumors that the Samsung BD-P1400 will be BD-Video 1.1 compliant and could be released as early as this August.
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post #53 of 289 Old 07-09-2007, 01:49 AM
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Great job 'Rich'

thx again for the info

My mom works for Sony, and she brought home a copy of "Starhawk BETA"
I quickly slipped it into my trusty PS3, and started playing.


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post #54 of 289 Old 07-09-2007, 09:02 PM
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...there is just one inaccuracy:
HD PiP was never, and is not, mandatory.
otherwise, the original post is completely correct.
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post #55 of 289 Old 07-09-2007, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pravda View Post

...there is just one inaccuracy:
HD PiP was never, and is not, mandatory.
otherwise, the original post is completely correct.

Um, in HD DVD you are correct, but for BD, I believe profile 1.1 mandates a HD PiP decoder, unless you know something we don't?
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post #56 of 289 Old 07-10-2007, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pravda View Post

HD PiP was never, and is not, mandatory.
otherwise, the original post is completely correct.

A HD PiP decoder isn't mandatory in BD-Video 1.0 but it is mandatory with BD-Video 1.1 and I thought that the original post was clear on that. Was there any particular part of the original post that you thought was unclear about that?
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post #57 of 289 Old 07-12-2007, 11:37 AM
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Thanks for this post. Are there any players coming out after Oct 31st that are known to be able to support BD-live, or are they primarily going to be just 1.1 for a while?
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post #58 of 289 Old 07-12-2007, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlconner View Post

Thanks for this post. Are there any players coming out after Oct 31st that are known to be able to support BD-live, or are they primarily going to be just 1.1 for a while?

Nothing official has been announced yet but personally I do expect to see at least one stand alone BD-Live player released this year.
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post #59 of 289 Old 07-19-2007, 05:46 PM
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Excellent first post / thread, Richard!

I came back the forum after a long time, now that I am looking for my second BD player. Happy to see this thread.

"I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation." - George Bernard Shaw
"I want lossless audio. Let me be the judge of what is good enough for me" - kdragon :)
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post #60 of 289 Old 07-20-2007, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rauer View Post

Thanks, Richard. This was a very informative post.

This makes me wonder, though. It's less than 4 months until the deadline and there are still no official announcements of 1.1 compliant players. Or are there? Will they be able to release new players by that time or will they be delayed? While ignoring the HD camp FUD, I'm afraid this waiting for new specs players affects BD camp sales. I'm sure many people are waiting for 1.1 even if basic BD viewing is fine with 1.0 too.

I'm wondering if the hardware manufacturers are being hush hush about upcoming players because they don't want people not buying what is on the market now.

I am an HD-DVD owner and ready to go neutral this fall but I want to wait for 1.1 at a minimum and preferably BD-Live. Hopefully one will be available by years end (and hopefully won't cost a small fortune!)
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