Blu-ray player profiles explained in detail - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 289 Old 07-20-2007, 03:32 PM
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I likewise think they may be keeping quiet so as not to jeapordize sales of current models until they are ready to actually ship the newer ones... Come on Live capable players!!!

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post #62 of 289 Old 07-20-2007, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchuckp View Post

I'm wondering if the hardware manufacturers are being hush hush about upcoming players because they don't want people not buying what is on the market now.

I am an HD-DVD owner and ready to go neutral this fall but I want to wait for 1.1 at a minimum and preferably BD-Live. Hopefully one will be available by years end (and hopefully won't cost a small fortune!)

samsung released their next gen player news recently here it is:

Samsung developing 3rd Gen Blu-ray player
11 July 2007 9:30 by vurbal

Just months after its second-generation Blu-ray Disc player hit the streets, Samsung already has a third generation version in the works.

The company will display the model, the BD-P1400, during the 2007 IFA consumer electronics conference in Berlin on Aug. 31, confirmed a company representative.

The player is expected to support Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby True HD and DTS-HD audio formats. The BD-P1400 also should boast a built-in Ethernet port, which had been the most notable upgrade for the second-generation Samsung BD-P1200 over the company's first-generation BD-P1000.

If the new Samsung player ships to retail after Oct. 31, it will be mandated by the Blu-ray Disc Assn. that it include certain features that were not required of Blu-ray models that streeted prior to that cut-off date. One new required enhancement will be the capability to playback picture-in-picture, in which one separate stream of video runs currently with the running feature film. To date, no Blu-ray stand-alone features picture-in-picture playback. HD DVD hardware has been required to handle this feature since the launch of the format last year.

Source: Video Business

i have also heard of a 2400 planned as well and rumors of sony s500 by ye2007 or yn2008.

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post #63 of 289 Old 07-21-2007, 07:49 AM
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Excellent first post, and excellent thread! I have unsubscribed from Format Battle General Discussion Thread III and subscribed to this one.

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post #64 of 289 Old 07-25-2007, 01:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Two new Blu-ray players have been announced by Denon. The Denon DVD-3800BDCI can internally decode Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD MA at up to 7.1 channels. It uses the 10-bit Silicon Optix Realta chipset which is an even better upscaling chip than what was used in the Toshiba HD-XA2 and Samsung BD-P1200. It has though a rather high end MSRP of $2000. The other announced player is the Denon DVD-2500BTC which does not have the previously mentioned features but is capable of sending the advanced audio codecs to a HDMI 1.3 AV receiver for decoding. An MSRP for it has yet to be announced. Both Denon Blu-ray players are BD-Video 1.1 compliant.
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post #65 of 289 Old 07-25-2007, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Two new Blu-ray players have been announced by Denon. The Denon DVD-3800BDCI can internally decode Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD MA at up to 7.1 channels. It uses the 10-bit Silicon Optix Realta chipset which is an even better upscaling chip than what was used in the Toshiba HD-XA2 and Samsung BD-P1200. It has though a rather high end MSRP of $2000. The other announced player is the Denon DVD-2500BTC which does not have the previously mentioned features but is capable of sending the advanced audio codecs to a HDMI 1.3 AV receiver for decoding. An MSRP for it has yet to be announced. Both Denon Blu-ray players are BD-Video 1.1 compliant.

Thumbs up on the decoding the newest codecs and the Realta chipset, but the high MSRP is unsettling (to me). It wll be interesting to see if they can make them fly out the door at (anywhere near) that price. I find the second unit you mention more interesting, though, as it passes the advanced codecs' bitstreams for outboard decoding. I've been involved in several, umm . . discussions on this and "advanced content." The argument *for* onboard decoding is mixing audio streams from the movie, bonus content and even streaming from the internet. Well, when I'm watching a movie, I only want to hear the movie. The proponents further aver that all decoders are identical and there's no difference between passing the stream for external decoding and passing PCM after onboard decoding. I am not knowledgeable enough to accept or refute that, but I can't help but have a suspicion that better circuitry would make *some* difference. If ALL decoders use the same chip, then how about the supporting components, and how about the quality of the power supply?

I'd be interested in hearing more about that last issue as well as comments on advanced content and external decoding.

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post #66 of 289 Old 07-25-2007, 07:51 AM
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Denon's high end DVD players have never really been designed/priced to fly off the shelves, but rather to appeal to a certain segment of the market that appreciates a well constructed machine. I have a DVD-5900 and DVD-2900 at home in my two systems (neither at MSRP, I'm not Rockerfeller here) and they sound great and play just about anything that existed when they were released which saved me from needing multiple components. These seem to be the continuations of two existing product lines, and the prices are in line with the previous DVD-only models.

Robert, thanks for making this thread, I wasn't very clear on the different profiles. It looks like I will be waiting until at least Oct 31, or until Sony clarifies an upgrade path for the PS3, before becoming neutral. I've enjoyed some of the advanced features of my HD-DVD discs and think I'll appreciate the added features of the 1.1 spec at least.
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post #67 of 289 Old 07-26-2007, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Thumbs up on the decoding the newest codecs and the Realta chipset, but the high MSRP is unsettling (to me). It wll be interesting to see if they can make them fly out the door at (anywhere near) that price.

It is definitely going to be a low volume Blu-ray player at $2000 MSRP but I would point out that Denon has also released a DVD player for $3800 MSRP. As such Denon often releases products which are intended for the high end market.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I find the second unit you mention more interesting, though, as it passes the advanced codecs' bitstreams for outboard decoding. I've been involved in several, umm . . discussions on this and "advanced content." The argument *for* onboard decoding is mixing audio streams from the movie, bonus content and even streaming from the internet. Well, when I'm watching a movie, I only want to hear the movie. The proponents further aver that all decoders are identical and there's no difference between passing the stream for external decoding and passing PCM after onboard decoding.

That is a complex issue that depends on how serious of an issue you think jitter is when transporting PCM audio over HDMI. Some posters have said that issue is enough of a problem that it would affect audio quality but I do not know enough about that issue to know if that is true.
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post #68 of 289 Old 07-30-2007, 06:45 PM
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Dennon has a really nice player, but for 2K no SACD - No DVD Audio, and no ethernet makes it obsolete by years end!

"Thats assuming that the october BR update is correct.
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post #69 of 289 Old 07-30-2007, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oswald Pascual View Post

Dennon has a really nice player, but for 2K no SACD - No DVD Audio, and no ethernet makes it obsolete by years end!

Only if accessing the internet via your optical player is important to you. As for DVD-A/SACD, I'll be keeping my 3910 around - maybe forever if no next gen players support it.

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post #70 of 289 Old 07-31-2007, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oswald Pascual View Post

Dennon has a really nice player, but for 2K no SACD - No DVD Audio, and no ethernet makes it obsolete by years end!

"Thats assuming that the october BR update is correct.

BD-Video 1.1 does not require ethernet.

BD-Live does, but there isn't a date set for BD-Live, and AFAIK BD-Live will only be optional.
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post #71 of 289 Old 08-03-2007, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by lunddal View Post

BD-Video 1.1 does not require ethernet.

BD-Live does, but there isn't a date set for BD-Live, and AFAIK BD-Live will only be optional.

If the players contain ethernet, presumably that can at least be used for firmware updates even if the player isn't BD-Live capable. That's been very convenient on my Toshiba A2 for HD-DVD. I've been looking into BD players but have been holding off for both price reasons, and these BD player profiles. It's kind of frustrating, because I want to get into BD, but don't want to get hosed from a consumer standpoint.
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post #72 of 289 Old 08-09-2007, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Sluggonics View Post

If the players contain ethernet, presumably that can at least be used for firmware updates even if the player isn't BD-Live capable. That's been very convenient on my Toshiba A2 for HD-DVD. I've been looking into BD players but have been holding off for both price reasons, and these BD player profiles. It's kind of frustrating, because I want to get into BD, but don't want to get hosed from a consumer standpoint.


Well put I feel the same way, I've had two HD DVD players the A1, and now the XA2. The ethernet option to update firmware is a big plus for me. I know the PS3 can do this but I do not want a PS3 in my theater. Hopefully they will get this worked out, one thing Blu-Ray seems to need is a standard profile rather than the three, although there does not seem to be a major issue there, other than SD PIP. I fear studios will play to the lowest common denominator. If that happens what good will it be to have a player with all the bells?

It's come to the point to where I don't care which format it is. I just want lots of great content. On the computer side a 200 Gig Blu-Ray would rock for backup over the 60 Gig HD DVD.

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post #73 of 289 Old 08-10-2007, 09:28 AM
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3. Should I wait for BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live players?
That depends. Though BD-Video 1.0 players will always be capable of playing Blu-ray movies and normal BD-J interactivity they will not be capable of certain extras such as PiP decoding. If you are interested in those extras than it would be best to wait for Blu-ray players to be released that can support them.

Are we sure that PiP/second video stream decoder is simply not there in ANY profile 1.0 players? The feature is OPTIONAL for 1.0, not excluded from. AFAIK, no discs include IME/PiP because there aren't enough supporting players for it to be worth bothering to re-do on the BD version, not because there aren't any supporting players.

DailyTech.com (Anandtech) and Doom9.net are reporting that the "lack" of BD Java is why we don't have IME features on Blu-Ray. Despite my constant comments and corrections, they haven't done anything about it. In fact, DT references a much older article where they claimed the same thing and went completely uncorrected. Will anyone support me on this? I seem to be the lone dissenting voice over there and these are being picked up by other news sites (uncorrected).
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post #74 of 289 Old 08-10-2007, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CZroe View Post

Are we sure that PiP/second video stream decoder is simply not there in ANY profile 1.0 players?

I believe the Samsung BD-P1000 and the Samsung BD-P1200 use Broadcom 7411 decoder chips while the Panasonic DMP-BD10, Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1, Sony BDP-S1, and Sony BDP-S300 use early revision Sigma SMP8634 chips. As such unless one of those players contains a very powerful CPU, or a second decoder chip, I do not believe that any of them are capable of PiP decoding.


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Originally Posted by CZroe View Post

AFAIK, no discs include IME/PiP because there aren't enough supporting players for it to be worth bothering to re-do on the BD version, not because there aren't any supporting players.

I have heard that the main reason that PiP isn't being put onto any Blu-ray movies is because the studios want to be able to test it first with stand alone BD-Video 1.1 players. Warner for instance cares greatly about PiP and they are even delaying several big name movies for Blu-ray supposedly so they can include PiP with them (Batman Begins, Matrix, V for Vendetta, Poseidon, etc...).


Quote:
Originally Posted by CZroe View Post

Will anyone support me on this? I seem to be the lone dissenting voice over there and these are being picked up by other news sites (uncorrected).

You might want to start a thread about this issue and perhaps even PM paidgeek about it if DailyTech.com continues to confuse the issue of BD-J and the Blu-ray player profiles.
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post #75 of 289 Old 08-26-2007, 09:04 PM
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As I understand it, Denon's new player was to have been the first BD 1.1 compliant player to ship this year.

But now that it is delayed till Q2 2008, are there any other *confirmed* BD 1.1 players scheduled to ship this year? I know there are a bunch of players that will ship before the mandatory November 1st 2007 date, but that means they don't have to be 1.1, and I haven't seen any BD 1.1 player announcements besides the Denon.

Can anyone help?

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=897661
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post #76 of 289 Old 08-26-2007, 09:18 PM
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I suspect these new profiles aren't being annouced early to avoid impacting existing unit sales. Maybe we'll see (or hear of) something at Cedia. Do you have a link to where the Denon was delayed? I'd read this elsewhere on the forum but it seemed to be a rumor, with some thinking that this was a mixup with the European version.

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post #77 of 289 Old 08-27-2007, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

As I understand it, Denon's new player was to have been the first BD 1.1 compliant player to ship this year.

But now that it is delayed till Q2 2008

RDjam, can you point to an announcement that the Denon has been delayed in the US? The discussion (which you're naturally spinning into as big a Blu-ray negative as you can) was that European delivery has been delayed. There has been no confirmation that this will impact the US.

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post #78 of 289 Old 08-27-2007, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

RDjam, can you point to an announcement that the Denon has been delayed in the US? The discussion (which you're naturally spinning into as big a Blu-ray negative as you can) was that European delivery has been delayed. There has been no confirmation that this will impact the US.

rdjam has been busy... he has already gotten two other threads closed just this morning for similar postings

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post11432676
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post #79 of 289 Old 09-02-2007, 06:01 AM
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I read that Daewoo announced a 1.1/2.0 player at IFA. Is 2.0 the same as BD-Live or is it something different?

Thanks!
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post #80 of 289 Old 09-02-2007, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by sknight1 View Post

I read that Daewoo announced a 1.1/2.0 player at IFA. Is 2.0 the same as BD-Live or is it something different?

2.0 *is* BD-Live.

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post #81 of 289 Old 09-09-2007, 01:31 PM
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Richard, you should probably update all the profiles to indicate that only "64 KB of persistent memory required" with the other profiles also noting that they require higher capabilities.
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post #82 of 289 Old 09-09-2007, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Richard, you should probably update all the profiles to indicate that only "64 KB of persistent memory required" with the other profiles also noting that they require higher capabilities.

I already explained that in the paragraph on persistent memory but I will clarify that issue a bit more in the player profile list. I would recommend though reading the paragraph on persistent memory since that is where I explained about that in detail.
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post #83 of 289 Old 09-18-2007, 11:56 AM
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IF the PS3 can be upgraded to 1.1 why not just upgrade it to 2.0 and save a step?

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post #84 of 289 Old 09-18-2007, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by soremekun View Post

IF the PS3 can be upgraded to 1.1 why not just upgrade it to 2.0 and save a step?

That might happen though I don't really know if doing it with one firmware update would save any time or be any easier than doing it with two firmware updates. A lot of people guess that BD-Video 1.1 capability will be added first since that would allow for that capability to be added earlier but who knows what will happen. Officially Sony has never said what they might do with the PS3 in terms of the Blu-ray player profiles.
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post #85 of 289 Old 09-20-2007, 10:15 AM
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A. I think I get the general idea, but what the ?##??# is "BD-Video?" And why isn't it explained (or, at least, why isn't reference given to another site that would explain it (assuming the original post is a FAQ intended for those who want to learn more about this very rapidly developing technology? - The term isn't even defined in Wikipedia! For example, is there a glossary of such HD/audio terms on a website? (I think that when we have been following ongoing discussions of such subjects on AVS and elsewhere, we begin to assume that it's common, general knowledge, even though there may only be a few hundred or so really following the discusion in detail.)

B. Assuming we want to get a Blu-Ray player with the new BDV 1.1XX capabilities from a local dealer, how do we ensure that a player we buy from the dealer has the latest firmware/updates and hasn't been sitting on his shelf since before the update?

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post #86 of 289 Old 09-20-2007, 10:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post

A. I think I get the general idea, but what the ?##??# is "BD-Video?"

BD-Video is the video standard for Blu-ray in the same way that DVD-Video is the video standard for DVD. For instance technically speaking we buy DVD-Video players.


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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post

And why isn't it explained (or, at least, why isn't reference given to another site that would explain it (assuming the original post is a FAQ intended for those who want to learn more about this very rapidly developing technology? - The term isn't even defined in Wikipedia! For example, is there a glossary of such HD/audio terms on a website?

I never intended for this thread to be a general FAQ on Blu-ray and it was only made to explain about the Blu-ray player profiles. I wouldn't mind though updating the initial post with a link to an accurate and up to date Blu-ray FAQ.


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B. Assuming we want to get a Blu-Ray player with the new BDV 1.1XX capabilities from a local dealer, how do we ensure that a player we buy from the dealer has the latest firmware/updates and hasn't been sitting on his shelf since before the update?

The best way to insure the latest firmware is simply to update the firmware on the Blu-ray player after buying it. In terms of firmware updates depending on the specific Blu-ray player model you can do it using a disc that the CE company will send you, downloading the firmware update onto a computer and than writing it onto a recordable DVD, and/or downloading the firmware update directly onto the player.
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post #87 of 289 Old 10-01-2007, 08:24 AM
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This may be a bit off subject, but does anyone know if it is possible to pass out DD 5.1 throught the digital output on a BluRay movie? Is there something in the BluRay specs. that prohibits it?
I have tried 2 players, the Sony S-300 and the Pany BD-10A. I believe the setup was okay as a regular DVD would pass DD5.1 just fine from these players. As soon as I put in a BluRay disc, all I could get was ProLogic surround sound.
Thanks for any infor you may have - PK
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post #88 of 289 Old 10-01-2007, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by pk442 View Post

This may be a bit off subject, but does anyone know if it is possible to pass out DD 5.1 throught the digital output on a BluRay movie? Is there something in the BluRay specs. that prohibits it?
I have tried 2 players, the Sony S-300 and the Pany BD-10A. I believe the setup was okay as a regular DVD would pass DD5.1 just fine from these players. As soon as I put in a BluRay disc, all I could get was ProLogic surround sound.
Thanks for any infor you may have - PK


if you are refering to bitstreaming of truehd and dts-hd-ma via hdmi the only player that currently can do this is the new sammy bdp1400. all other players you must set your player (in settings) for analog pcm for those upper audio channels. the end result of bitstreaming to the avr vs pcm analog is exactly the same for losseless audio.

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post #89 of 289 Old 10-01-2007, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by cappyxavs View Post

if you are refering to bitstreaming of truehd and dts-hd-ma via hdmi the only player that currently can do this is the new sammy bdp1400. all other players you must set your player (in settings) for analog pcm for those upper audio channels. the end result of bitstreaming to the avr vs pcm analog is exactly the same for losseless audio.

Thanks for the response Cappy.

What I want however, is just DolbyDigita 5.1 like on DVD's, not DD+ or DD True. The reason is that my B&K 307 Receiver does not have HDMI, and it only has 5.1 analog inputs that I am using for my SACD player. Eventually I will update the receiver, but for now I would be content with DVD quality DD 5.1 on BluRay movies. It seems that BluRay will NOT allow this. I can only get the Old Dobly Surround (matrix out of 2 channels). This seems to be intentional on the part of the BluRay authors - why I don't know. If I pop a DVD into my Blue ray player - then I get Dolby Digital 5.1 - as soon as I switch to a BluRay disc it reverts back to dolby surround.

My HD-DVD player supports all the new DD+/True, but it will also support DD5.1 on optical digital connection. This is a much better experience then watching BluRay for me. BD's picture is great, but I'm forced to watch it with sound that is from the 1980's. I don't feel like being forced into spending $$$ for the BluRay player, BluRay moview AND a new Receiver. I suspect many consumers feel the same way and I fear this is just going to cause this formats demise - just like SACD and DVD audio.
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post #90 of 289 Old 10-02-2007, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by pk442 View Post

Thanks for the response Cappy.

What I want however, is just DolbyDigita 5.1 like on DVD's, not DD+ or DD True. The reason is that my B&K 307 Receiver does not have HDMI, and it only has 5.1 analog inputs that I am using for my SACD player. Eventually I will update the receiver, but for now I would be content with DVD quality DD 5.1 on BluRay movies. It seems that BluRay will NOT allow this. I can only get the Old Dobly Surround (matrix out of 2 channels). This seems to be intentional on the part of the BluRay authors - why I don't know. If I pop a DVD into my Blue ray player - then I get Dolby Digital 5.1 - as soon as I switch to a BluRay disc it reverts back to dolby surround.

If you select the DD or DTS track, then the player will send them out the optical/SPDIF output. You might need to configure your player to send the audio as bitstream.

If you select the PCM track, then the player will send a Dolby Surround PCM out the optical/SPDIF output. Many people like this better because you get a 1.5 Mbps audio stream instead of the 640/448 kbps DD. Dolby Prologic II does a pretty good job at recreating the surround effect.

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