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post #2101 of 2146 Old 04-13-2020, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh yeah. We watched Forza Horizon 4 gameplay and Atmos @JDontee s house. Your house was zero dawn gameplay. Sorry for the confusion.

JD. What is your xbox gamer tag? Are we friends in Xbox? I haven’t done much with xbox since 360 days. I do have the XBox PC pass now. The driveatars on Horizon 4 are fun. Bridging the gap between solo play and multiplayer. I wish they were actual recorded lap play, instead of approximated based on lap time. It’d be fun to see who crashed in the same blind 90* corners that I do.

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post #2102 of 2146 Old 04-14-2020, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I finished the last 2/3s of Mortal Kombat 11 today on PC. The game, like MK 10 is a surprisingly fun single player story.

I played the entire game through with an xbox one controller, until I simply could not beat the last boss.

Frustration was mounting!!!

At the point I couldn't stand it anymore I pulled out my arcade stick and beat the last boss on the first try. The arcade stick offers SOOOO much better precision control for pulling off combos. It was then a easy fight. I should have been using it all along!

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Dude that lady was darn near impossible! I've gotten her taken care of tho now with Raiden,Scorpion,SZ, and Kabal through their story lines. I not playing on hardest though, I think one down...

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I've been playing Gutar Hero this weekend. Was fun to play again.
Dude I always am playing Rock Band 4 on xb1 and GH III on my old 360. I love those games more than any other franchise I think. I used to play real guitar and LOVE music so I guess that's why...
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post #2103 of 2146 Old 04-14-2020, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Dude that lady was darn near impossible! I've gotten her taken care of tho now with Raiden,Scorpion,SZ, and Kabal through their story lines. I not playing on hardest though, I think one down...



Dude I always am playing Rock Band 4 on xb1 and GH III on my old 360. I love those games more than any other franchise I think. I used to play real guitar and LOVE music so I guess that's why...
I had a few guitars and tired to learn, but just wasn't that good. I did pick up playing harmonica and need to break them back out and play. I even took lessons when I lived in Overland Park many years ago.

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post #2104 of 2146 Old 04-15-2020, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Yet every MK 11 championship video I can find shows them using PS4 controllers.

I don’t live in this world, but I suspect they are using modified ps4 controllers

Watch this video for the first four minutes and it explains the problem with standard gamepad controllers - even the PS4 controller.

That was precisely my problem with my Xbox One controller. Trying to do dpad back/forward combos was not registering reliably on the gamepad, while it registered perfectly reliably on the arcade stick.

Try repeatedly and accurately hitting back back back forward with your gamepad dpad for example. Easy and reliable with the proper tool (his modified ps4 controller, or a gamepad)


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post #2105 of 2146 Old 04-15-2020, 07:27 AM
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Jonathan, Do you have this yer for you PC gaming? I want to get it for our PS4, but my kid pretty much plays Fortnite and FIFIA.

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post #2106 of 2146 Old 04-23-2020, 08:15 AM
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I just spent sometime looking through this thread and wow is the first word that comes to mind. Simply incredible. The layout, choice of equipment, all top notch. I can only imagine what this may sound like. Congrats on what should be nominated for HToTM. Again, a fantastic room. You should be proud.
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post #2107 of 2146 Old 05-01-2020, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I was just listening to some Pandora and Kaskade , “On your Mind” came up. I cranked it to reference levels on all channel stereo and started laughing out loud to myself with shivers and chills to boot. It sounds so good! Its like an amusement park ride and an incredibly clean live concert mixed together at those reference level volumes (with the bass 10-12dB hot)

I really love this setup, and that song is my current favorite in here!
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post #2108 of 2146 Old 05-03-2020, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I was just listening to some Pandora and Kaskade , “On your Mind” came up. I cranked it to reference levels on all channel stereo and started laughing out loud to myself with shivers and chills to boot. It sounds so good! Its like an amusement park ride and an incredibly clean live concert mixed together at those reference level volumes (with the bass 10-12dB hot)

I really love this setup, and that song is my current favorite in here!
Have you gone back to all channel stereo all the time or do you still use dolby surround too?
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post #2109 of 2146 Old 05-04-2020, 02:20 AM - Thread Starter
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@Ladeback ,

I haven’t tried any of the Jedi games for quite a while. I enjoy Star Wars Battlefront and Battlefront II though.


@carp ,

I switch back and forth. For dupstep or club music I like All Channel Stereo, but for nearly any other kind of music, Dolby Surround seems to be the best upscaling option on my Denon AVR. I haven’t ever liked DTS Neural X for upscaling music, but it is my go to for upscaling movie content.

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post #2110 of 2146 Old 05-06-2020, 02:00 PM
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@Ladeback ,

I haven’t tried any of the Jedi games for quite a while. I enjoy Star Wars Battlefront and Battlefront II though.


@carp ,

I switch back and forth. For dupstep or club music I like All Channel Stereo, but for nearly any other kind of music, Dolby Surround seems to be the best upscaling option on my Denon AVR. I haven’t ever liked DTS Neural X for upscaling music, but it is my go to for upscaling movie content.
Is the pure reason you like all channel stereo for EDM due to the increased bass level doing it that way or just for total annihilation of SPL levels hitting you from everywhere at the same time?

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post #2111 of 2146 Old 05-06-2020, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
just for total annihilation of SPL levels hitting you from everywhere at the same time?
Yes

I’ve wondered over the last few years why modern DJs still tend to have a front of house or front soundstage.

EDM music sounds incredible in a total immersion all channel stereo situation (matching speakers likely helps with this too).

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post #2112 of 2146 Old 05-07-2020, 10:10 AM
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Yes

I’ve wondered over the last few years why modern DJs still tend to have a front of house or front soundstage.

EDM music sounds incredible in a total immersion all channel stereo situation (matching speakers likely helps with this too).
The more speakers you have covering the same area with the same sound, the less intelligibility. This is due to comb filtering. You may personally like all channel stereo, but it shouldn't be used in a professional setting.

Here is a DJ that talks about how he avoids comb filtering in setups: SOUND SYSTEM SETUP TIPS: SPEAKERS, SUBWOOFERS, AND MORE

Here is a great article by Pat Brown: Proper Loudspeaker Placement: How To Avoid Lobes and Nulls

Reducing comb filtering is also why Meyer Sound puts speakers systems at one end of a football stadium, like Memorial Stadium in Nebraska.

I can't stand it in my vehicles when someone moves the Fade control to the middle position. It is very easy to hear the comb filtering once you have gotten use to not hearing it. I'm sitting in one spot and not moving my head, but the muffled effect it produces is undesirable.

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post #2113 of 2146 Old 05-07-2020, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Comb filtering concerns are overblown.

Bookmark this post. The next time you come by let's play some EDM in All Channel stereo and test if you can hear "muffled" or "hollow" or "metallic" sound as comb filtering is commonly said to produce.

I remember comb filtering being a forum discussion voiced concern for @Randy Bessinger with his double center channel speakers, one above and one below the screen, but oddly Randy always got compliments on his center channel setup in person. I wondered how he was avoiding comb filtering, or if he was. So we measured it with the ominimic. I bet there's even a old post floating around here somewhere that shows the results and discussion. You could see comb filtering in the measurement (with no smoothing, the measurement had narrow, but large notches in the frequency response) but you could not hear this attribute in person. To the contrary, during the 2015 KC crawl when Randy's room was included, many guests commented very positively on the clarity and intelligibility of voices from the center channel in his home cinema. That included his movie and music demo clips. I personally heard several people comment positively on that attribute myself, and our own local KC group had always thought that was true too when we visited Randy's theater for the occasional movie night. The comb filter concern didn't match the observed, audible, reality. This may be another case where our human ears don't hear, or perhaps mask some of the problems that a mic is able to detect.

As to the stadium or large venue setup with surround stereo sound - I suspect the key problem there would be latent echos, vs. comb filtering.

If comb filtering were a big problem, concert venues wouldn't be most commonly using giant line arrays for sound reproduction.

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post #2114 of 2146 Old 05-07-2020, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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DD,
from your second link, page 2:

3. Conclude that humans aren’t all that sensitive to narrow notches in the spectrum, so the comb filters are just something that we can live with.

This is rationalizing the problem and is simply not true. It’s usually the explanation provided by someone who is responsible for the problem in the first place!



It's probably okay to rationalize the 'problem" if human ears can't hear, or are intelligent enough to ignore the problem.


In spirit of honest and learning discussion - I have noticed in all channel stereo that if I'm pinpointed sitting in the exact middle seat for something like vocal or acoustic music where you expect a stereo image, there's something peculiar about all channel stereo, and if I move off center a little bit, or adjust channel distances even by a inch or two (which is of course delay) it resolves the little nuanced sound. So there is some of interest to be discussed here. I do not notice it in EDM music, where stereo imaging is not expected, nor part of the experience. My Denon AVR calculates distances of speakers down to 1" with the auto eq routine. I can eliminate that little oddity of sound by changing the distances of a few of the speakers a mere inch or 2, or moving my head slightly to the left or the right of the center mic position. That's why I prefer Dolby Surround for most music listening, and I leave my correctly calibrated speaker distances intact. That little nuance is not present with Dolby Surround for acoustic or vocal music.

But for dubstep, or EDM music where I don't hear that nuance - which was where my original post was originating from -- all channel stereo is an absolute thrill!

I will get out my mic tonight and measure this, to see if I can better understand our discussion.

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post #2115 of 2146 Old 05-07-2020, 01:54 PM
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When I went to Atmos a few years ago I used 2 sets of side surrounds. I went away from that after a year or so because of what I read about comb filtering, so for a long time I used just one set of side surrounds.

I was never completely happy with it, and I moved the location quite a few times, from 90 degrees, to 70, 100, 80, you name it. Finally I said screw it and went back to 2 sets. My rear set is around 105 and my front around 70 degrees. I have the side surrounds at 105 degrees louder than the 70 degree pair. I'm happy with it. Even with content like rain if I move my head around I don't get the weird comb filtering thing so I'm going to keep it as is, especially since I never think about improving the surround field anymore.
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post #2116 of 2146 Old 05-07-2020, 05:17 PM
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Interesting setup for sure. Like the idea of dome tweeters rather than the usual compression driver and/or horn which usually sounds way too bright and harsh to me.
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post #2117 of 2146 Old 05-07-2020, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Took some measurements just now.


No smoothing at all on this first set.

All Channel Stereo - Track 2 off the Omnimic CD (which is left and right speakers together, and then upmixed by the Denon x7200wa to all channels) - No EQ, No Audyssey.





Same thing - but just standard Stereo on Denon - Track 6 Left and Track 12 Right off the Ominimic CD - No EQ, No Audyssey.







Retook the same scenario measurements with 1/6 smoothing (which I read is about what we humans can actually hear - some even say more like 1/3 which is smoother still)

All Channel - track 2 - still no EQ/Audyssey - 1/6 smoothing


L and R Channel - track 6 and 12 - no EQ/Audyssey - 1/6 smoothing



Yes, I run my bass hot, (and subwoofers were on) but surely not as hot as @d_c

@beastaudio , per your question earlier, when you said you get more bass in all channel stereo - I think that's only if you use Dynamic EQ. I've been avoiding that lately. When I turn to all channel stereo without EQ, it sounds like less bass, which is also what the graph shows at least bass in relation to mids. (the overall bass SPL levels are higher with all channel stereo, but it doesn't sound that way proportionally)
Consider left/right graph, bass is about 15 dB hot. On All channel stereo, it's still hot relative the mainspakers, but quite a bit less relative the mid frequencies.

Oh - and I guess I shouldn't have said NO EQ on all the graphs above, because I do have a tone control applied since Audyssey is off that I set to + 2dB bass and + 1dB treble, and those settings apply to both Stereo and All Channel Stereo. But there is no individual EQ applied to any of the speakers, and no Audyssey.


Bottom Line:

All channel stereo's comb filtering with all 9 JBL CBT 70J-1 bed speakers playing (my all channel stereo has the 4 top speakers disabled) doesn't look worse than just a single left or right speaker speaker's frequency response capture at my MLP where the speakers distances/impulse response is calibrated to. I am using line array speakers, so my results may not match a more traditional bookshelf or tower speaker design.
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post #2118 of 2146 Old 05-08-2020, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Bottom Line:

All channel stereo's comb filtering with all 9 JBL CBT 70J-1 bed speakers playing (my all channel stereo has the 4 top speakers disabled) doesn't look worse than just a single left or right speaker speaker's frequency response capture at my MLP where the speakers distances/impulse response is calibrated to.
To be honest, it looks terrible.



Also notice that the SPL starts dropping a lot starting at 1000 Hz with All Channel Stereo. That is due to all the cancellation taking place.
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post #2119 of 2146 Old 05-08-2020, 09:32 AM
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I usually use my ears for listening and not my eyes. It might look terrible, but how does it sound?
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post #2120 of 2146 Old 05-08-2020, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I knew posting those screenies you might comment on the impulse response. I thought about snipping that part out to avoid it being a sticking point, but figured we ought to have the full transparent discussion on the matter.
It might look less clean on All Channel Stereo - but it sure sounds stellar!
Looks bad! Sounds great! ??? Hmmm, what to trust?

I'll take the side of my ears on this. Since I don't actually hear with my omnimic.

------

Again, I'm not talking about every song being best with all channel stereo. I mentioned I liked all channel stereo for dubstep and electronic/club music in Post 2107 and 2118 - closely mimics a live concert or club sound - but better than I've personally heard at one of those venues.

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Quote:
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closely mimics a live concert or club sound - but better than I've personally heard at one of those venues.
Jonathan used to be quite the raver back in the day.
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post #2122 of 2146 Old 05-08-2020, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Tried it again just now on a brief break, to make sure I wasn’t crazy.

CHILLS AGAIN!!!

Seriously, uncontrollable, pleasure inducing, chills again listening to this track on all channel stereo...

Comb filtering or not!

This is almost voyeuristic ... after the level of chills I just experienced. Its the most fun you can have with your clothes on!

https://imgur.com/gallery/YthW8Ps
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post #2123 of 2146 Old 05-08-2020, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Tried it again just now on a brief break, to make sure I wasn’t crazy.

CHILLS AGAIN!!!

Seriously, uncontrollable, pleasure inducing, chills again listening to this track on all channel stereo...

Comb filtering or not!

This is almost voyeuristic ... after the level of chills I just experienced. Its the most fun you can have with your clothes on!

https://imgur.com/gallery/YthW8Ps
How about the first minute of this track....

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post #2124 of 2146 Old 05-13-2020, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Sunday night, May 17, at 7:30pm I will host a 1 hr zoom to discuss this video.


If interested, join zoom meeting with this link. Password 1420

Use your computer or smart phone and and join in the friendly discussion. I made note in the KC thread but I’ll also make it here to potentially open up the interest from those enthusiasts not in KC.

https://us04web.zoom.us/j/5845902562...8vZ0pNWStjUT09

Theres some good stuff in this, but also some pretty novice level advice and details shinning through. We’ll talk about your take, and I’ll give you mine.

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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Sunday night, May 17, at 7:30pm I will host a 1 hr zoom to discuss this video.

https://youtu.be/95zhP4W-kk4

If interested, join zoom meeting with this link. Password 1420

Use your computer or smart phone and and join in the friendly discussion. I made note in the KC thread but I’ll also make it here to potentially open up the interest from those enthusiasts not in KC.

https://us04web.zoom.us/j/5845902562...8vZ0pNWStjUT09

Theres some good stuff in this, but also some pretty novice level advice and details shinning through. We’ll talk about your take, and I’ll give you mine.
7:30 pm central.....
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post #2126 of 2146 Old 05-14-2020, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rush2049 View Post
7:30 pm central.....

Correct

Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
208, 1" tweeters | 52, 5" woofers | 8, 18" subwoofers
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post #2127 of 2146 Old 06-01-2020, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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In case someone is interested in upgrading their speakers.
This is the best deal on the same speakers I own that I've seen since I bought mine a couple years ago. They have 10 available. I do not know the seller, but just happened upon them on ebay. There is also a 5% back in eBay bucks coupon right now on the homepage.

Might be able to make an offer and get them cheaper too. I'm still really pleased with mine. Great even and uniform sound and coverage throughout your whole room.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-CBT-70J...4AAOSwOWNdTH--


@chirpie - just in case you haven't finalized on a speaker setup for your new room.
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
208, 1" tweeters | 52, 5" woofers | 8, 18" subwoofers
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post #2128 of 2146 Old 06-04-2020, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I'm going to order a Denon X6700H this month. Hot off the press it's Denon's new 13 channel AVR.
DTS-X Pro
HDMI 2.1
Auro 3d
IMAX enhanced
140 watts per channel

$2500 MSRP. Streetprice will hopefully be lower. I've got some feelers out now.

I have been waiting for 13 channels, DTS-X Pro, and HDMI 2.1 to move forward. Here they are! Supposed to be available after June 10th. I'm pretty excited. This has everything I was hoping for in my next AVR except Dirac and subwoofer 3 (for quick transducer specific level adjustment), but it's $1500 cheaper than I expected to have to pay for something like the Monoprice HTP-1. (which doesn't yet have DTS-X Pro, and HDMI 2.1, and hasn't even predicted when it will to my knowledge).

Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
208, 1" tweeters | 52, 5" woofers | 8, 18" subwoofers
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post #2129 of 2146 Old 06-04-2020, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I think I'm going to order a Denon X6700H this month. Hot off the press it's Denon's new 13 channel AVR.
DTS-X Pro
HDMI 2.1
Auro 3d
IMAX enhanced
140 watts per channel

$2500 MSRP. Streetprice will hopefully be lower. I've got some feelers out now.

I have been waiting for 13 channels, DTS-X Pro, and HDMI 2.1 to move forward. Here they are! Supposed to be available after June 10th. I'm pretty excited. This has everything I was hoping for in my next AVR except Dirac and subwoofer 3 (for quick transducer specific level adjustment), but it's $1500 cheaper than I expected to have to pay for something like the Monoprice HTP-1. (which doesn't yet have DTS-X Pro, and HDMI 2.1, and hasn't even predicted when it will to my knowledge).
Not to mention the HTP-1 isn't an AVR, and that's a big deal to me because my LRC hiss with seperate amps, and if there are amps out there that won't cause hiss they are way more than I want to spend especially because I don't need the power.

I like that it has 2 seperate speaker setups, my Yamaha has that. On mine I can have 2 different settings for speaker trims/delay/crossovers/PEQ. I use one configuration for movies and the other for music. I like less volume in the rear surrounds and ceilings for music and I cross at 100hz, while for movies I cross at 80hz.

Does the new Denon upmix anything to DTS-X pro (meaning the wides can be active all the time if you want) or is it only for DTS X content?

I'm very curious to experience music upmixed to Auro, I have read repeatedly that it is the best upmixer (with the exception of people that swear by the old logic 7). With Auro aren't the ceiling speakers actually meant to be high up on the front wall and back wall?

I have everything dialed in how I like it so I hate to make a change... it's the little things that avr's do that you miss and didn't think about when moving to a new avr. For example I just thought about the "enhancer" function on my Yamaha which does a nice 2 db's or so boost to the treble and bass that is great for music. I also have completely different settings in my minidsp 2x4 HD for music than music for all sets of subs (up front stacks, boss platform and boss backpack) but for some reason I can't quite recreate what the "enhancer" setting does when I adjust the bass and PEQ the treble to try to match it.

I also love the "scenes" on the Yamaha. There are a total of 12 of these. For each scene you can have a different sub trim, and a ton of other settings like whether or not to have the enhancer setting on or off that I was talking about. You program into each scene what settings you want, and then using the Harmony remote I can switch between scenes, again with a single press of a button.

So, if a movies bass (music too) is a little light or heavy or whatever I have 6 different movie "scenes" with 6 different sub trim levels, each 2 db's apart from each other. I have the same for the 6 different music scenes.

All that stuff that I use so much will be gone with the Denon. Still.... I'm thinking about it... and I'm looking forward to your impressions.

Last edited by carp; 06-04-2020 at 11:20 PM.
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post #2130 of 2146 Old 06-05-2020, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
This first post will be updated on occasion to show my theater room evolution:

Version 3.0 with 13 JBL CBT 70J-1 speakers
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/i...1#.XFEjJPZFyD0


What an amazing Home Theater. WOW. Congratulations.
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Keep it cool. HT room: L11 x W18 x H8 feet (1584 cuft)
AV Equipment: AVR: Denon X4500H | 5.2 configuration | Speakers: Athena: 2 AS-F1 fronts, 1 AS-C1 center, 2 AS-B1 surrounds | Subwoofers: 2 SVS SB-1000 | TV: Vizio 4K M70D3 |
In another room: Denon AVR-X4000 | Def. Tech. SSA-42 and SM350 | Athena AS-P6000 subwoofer | TV Samsung 58" 1080P Plasma |

Last edited by flmiami; 06-05-2020 at 11:25 AM.
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