Room setup. NOOB questions. Moving to projector. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 14 Old 04-15-2015, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Room setup. NOOB questions. Moving to projector.

I hope this post is in the right place.

Its about time to upgrade my Television (56" Hitachi HDTV rear projector).

My room is 13'x23', It has 2 openings along a long wall.

The wall between the openings is 9' and will be the location of the screen.

We sit along the opposite long wall and sit all along the wall (middle 15' of wall).

I have a lot of ambient light in the room, which is why I went with a rear projector (a decade ago), instead of a projector. (5 windows 56"x36", 2 on West (back wall), 2 on North wall and 1 on South wall)

I'd appreciate informed thought on my plan.

1) Blackout curtains on back wall windows.
2) Screen Innovations Black Diamond (54"x96") 110" diagonal
3) Projector with at least 2400 lumens. ??? (I think screen is most important)

I already have speakers/amp/sub etc. So audio-wise, I'm in great shape.

So, with a bright projector shooting about 12' onto a Black Diamond, will I be able to watch TV in the daytime with the remaining 3 window open? I'm enough of a hermit already, I really need to see outside during the day. I really don't want to do a huge LED TV due to the reflections from the side windows.

Thanks,
AJ
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post #2 of 14 Old 04-15-2015, 01:04 PM
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post #3 of 14 Old 04-15-2015, 09:37 PM
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I would not jump right in with a Black Diamond screen. They are very expensive and over-rated by most accounts. I would buy an inexpensive Silver Ticket matte white screen and see how you feel about that during daytime watching. Then if you decide you really need better blacks during the day you can try one of the $50 paint applications onto that cheap screen.

The MH740 is similar to the HC1200, but the HC1200 has a more accurate color wheel in it. The HC1200 has the same color accuracy as the W1070 but is 2200 measured lumens compared to the W1070's 1700 lumens. The MH740 uses a white segment in addition to the RGB segments to boost white -- which is great for business presentations but not so good for TV and movies. If you go with a really dark screen, maybe all that extra white will be useful after all, but I have not heard any personal experiences.

Be careful you do not go by the "advertised" lumens of any projector -- they are all liars, they only vary in how MUCH they lie. Find a reputable review like ProjectorReviews.com that has actually measured the brightness after calibration for the specific projectors you are considering. The Panny 8000 is one of the worst, advertising 2400 lumens and only delivering 600 without grey scale and color being way off !

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post #4 of 14 Old 04-16-2015, 07:03 AM
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Hi AJ,

If you are questioning a large LED set due to reflections, then I would really have issues with recommending a projector. Any light that was bad enough to cause reflections will totally wash out a FP screen.

I agree with Kirk on the Black Diamond. They work for what they are, but people who buy them expect some sort of magic. There is no silver bullet here. Although a Black Diamond will allow you to project in a moderately lighted room, there is no way it will perform with sunlight hitting it.
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post #5 of 14 Old 04-16-2015, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayn_j View Post
Hi AJ,

If you are questioning a large LED set due to reflections, then I would really have issues with recommending a projector. Any light that was bad enough to cause reflections will totally wash out a FP screen.

I agree with Kirk on the Black Diamond. They work for what they are, but people who buy them expect some sort of magic. There is no silver bullet here. Although a Black Diamond will allow you to project in a moderately lighted room, there is no way it will perform with sunlight hitting it.
Appreciate all the replies.

The 3 windows that we like to open during the day face North and South, so light would never actually hit the screen.

I don't mind a little bit of wash out during the day, but covering up the windows during the day (when a great breeze is blowing through) is out of the question.

I guess my real question is, barring any consideration of cost, what screens have been known to work pretty well in ambient light?

Today is an average day from a brightness perspective here. I installed a lux meter on my phone (Galaxy S5) and sensing directly from the screen location towards the open windows reads max of 35lux. The brightest spot in the room is in the middle of the room on the floor, the reading from there directly toward the 2 open windows on the north is around 300.

I went outside with the same app and reading directly toward the sky reads 10,000 and horizontal reading max out at around 2200.

I'd say today it's just a little brighter in here than the lighting in a movie theater before the movie starts (while people are finding their seats and the commercials are showing), (not as bright as at end of movie when they are cleaning the room).

Today is an overcast day (typical here in Michigan).

Overcast day readings:
From Screen 35lux max (directly toward windows)
Center of room on floor 300lux max (directly toward windows)
outside horizontal reading 2200lux max
outside reading straight up 10,000lux max

On a bright sunny/clear day, I'd expect 2-3x the illumination in this room (100lux at screen)

In the summer, with all the leaves on the trees, very little direct sunlight comes in these windows. In fact, at all times almost all the light coming into this room is indirect.

I hope this wasn't just random/useless rambling.

I probably need to find some showrooms and perform some viewing and measure the brightness in those rooms.

Thanks,
AJ
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post #6 of 14 Old 04-16-2015, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJPeacock View Post
Appreciate all the replies.

The 3 windows that we like to open during the day face North and South, so light would never actually hit the screen.

I don't mind a little bit of wash out during the day, but covering up the windows during the day (when a great breeze is blowing through) is out of the question.

I guess my real question is, barring any consideration of cost, what screens have been known to work pretty well in ambient light?

Today is an average day from a brightness perspective here. I installed a lux meter on my phone (Galaxy S5) and sensing directly from the screen location towards the open windows reads max of 35lux. The brightest spot in the room is in the middle of the room on the floor, the reading from there directly toward the 2 open windows on the north is around 300.

I went outside with the same app and reading directly toward the sky reads 10,000 and horizontal reading max out at around 2200.

I'd say today it's just a little brighter in here than the lighting in a movie theater before the movie starts (while people are finding their seats and the commercials are showing), (not as bright as at end of movie when they are cleaning the room).

Today is an overcast day (typical here in Michigan).

Overcast day readings:
From Screen 35lux max (directly toward windows)
Center of room on floor 300lux max (directly toward windows)
outside horizontal reading 2200lux max
outside reading straight up 10,000lux max

On a bright sunny/clear day, I'd expect 2-3x the illumination in this room (100lux at screen)

In the summer, with all the leaves on the trees, very little direct sunlight comes in these windows. In fact, at all times almost all the light coming into this room is indirect.

I hope this wasn't just random/useless rambling.

I probably need to find some showrooms and perform some viewing and measure the brightness in those rooms.

Thanks,
AJ


You might want to read this thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-di...een-paint.html for a $50 paint solution similar to Black Diamond.

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post #7 of 14 Old 04-17-2015, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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What if I paint this wall as my screen?

OK, here is a what if and a picture of my screen location from the center viewing position. The wall behind this TV is 9' wide and 8' tall with a 3" trim along the top.

If I painted the entire wall between the door openings as my screen (and saved $3k on the Black Diamond), I could spend more on the projector.

This picture was taken with very typical 'bright day' situation in this room. This is exactly how it is during the middle of the day while we watch baseball games (with the windows open and nice breeze flowing through the room).

Throw distance would be around 11' 6" on shelf behind seating position. Shelf would be around 18" down from ceiling (6'6" above floor).



Thoughts?

Thank again,
AJ
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post #8 of 14 Old 04-17-2015, 07:10 PM
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I think you'll have a light switch right in the middle of your image. I also think your throw distance is awfully exact for someone who hasn't decided on a projector yet. Throw distance is from the lens to the screen, and a benq W1070 is 14" deep and an HC1200 is 12" deep because cables attach at the rear, but a Sony 40ES is 20" deep because you can't block the rear vent airflow. Throw distance would be different for each of them, not even counting what other projectors you consider. And "sitting on a shelf" only works for projectors with massive amounts of vertical lens shift, so your choices in projectors are much more limited than if you are willing to mount them to the underside of the shelf.

If you are unwilling to cover those windows, then I think you could give Ftoast's formula a shot painted directly on the wall for $30 in paint and see where you stand. You may have to fall back on a flat panel LCD on the wall for daytime use and a retractable screen for night time movie watching. The total setup would still cost less than the Black Diamond.

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post #9 of 14 Old 04-17-2015, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamer View Post
I think you'll have a light switch right in the middle of your image. I also think your throw distance is awfully exact for someone who hasn't decided on a projector yet. Throw distance is from the lens to the screen, and a benq W1070 is 14" deep and an HC1200 is 12" deep because cables attach at the rear, but a Sony 40ES is 20" deep because you can't block the rear vent airflow. Throw distance would be different for each of them, not even counting what other projectors you consider. And "sitting on a shelf" only works for projectors with massive amounts of vertical lens shift, so your choices in projectors are much more limited than if you are willing to mount them to the underside of the shelf.

If you are unwilling to cover those windows, then I think you could give Ftoast's formula a shot painted directly on the wall for $30 in paint and see where you stand. You may have to fall back on a flat panel LCD on the wall for daytime use and a retractable screen for night time movie watching. The total setup would still cost less than the Black Diamond.
Thank for the info.

1) The light switch is not being used, so will be covered/painted over if required. I may just move it to the other side of the wall if needed. If I paint the wall, I'll cover/sand and paint over the hole when I do the screen.
2) The edge of the light switch is exactly 8.5" from the opening. (wall is 108" wide minus 2x8.5" = 91") 100" diagonal has a width of 87" (without border). A 2" border would just touch the light plate, a wider border could completely cover it. So I think I can take the switch out of play if needed (but at 100", I probably won't need to).
3) The throw distance will be "around 11.5 ft", giving "around 18" from the lens back to the wall for shelf mounting. 18" will fit a LOT of projector that I've looked at. My current #1 projector is the Epson 5030-UB (15.5" deep, HDMI on back, so 18" is about right), fed with dual HDMI cables.


Couple additional bits of info.
1) The far left/right seating locations create a 65 degree angle to the center of the screen.
2) The windows that we leave open (left/right of the screen) create a much more oblique angle (left side is 23degrees, right side is 28degree) (total angle between windows to center of screen is 129degrees)

I'm hoping the extreme angle of the light (side windows), in addition to a bright projector and good screen will work in my living room. I'm pretty confident a Black Diamond + Epson 5030UB would work fine in the room. But it would be great to save a couple thousand $$'s!

All additional tidbits are welcomed, thanks again.



Thanks,
AJ

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post #10 of 14 Old 04-23-2015, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Update with room layout.

I've been continuing my research and am looking seriously at the DNP SuperNova, Stewarts and Black Diamond screens. If you have any of the high end ambient light screens, I'd appreciate your inputs.

Here is a drawing of my room.
Over the last several days, my mid-day readings with the 2 curtains open have been 35-70 lux toward either window.

Any additional comments or comparisons to your rooms would be appreciated. For the lux measurements, I've been using my Samsung S5 and an android application called "Lux Meter"



When I close the curtains, the light is pretty well controlled. I'm just trying to find the best screen for watching sports with friends in a non-dark environment. I can get a higher end screen, but can't afford to buy it and then not be able to use it.

Thanks again,
AJ
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Epson 5030UBe
118" Painted wall (Black Widow) (Dover Grey mixed 4:1 with AAA-F)
Marantz SR-6010 amp
Thiel CS .5 front speakers
SVS SB13-Ultra
Polk Audio Center Channel Speaker (CS 350)
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post #11 of 14 Old 04-25-2015, 11:32 AM
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100" DNP 23-23 paired with the Epson 5030 that you purchased. In living room mode, high lamp you are looking at 72 Foot Lamberts. That is a lot brighter than the rear projection TV that you have now.
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post #12 of 14 Old 04-26-2015, 03:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
100" DNP 23-23 paired with the Epson 5030 that you purchased. In living room mode, high lamp you are looking at 72 Foot Lamberts. That is a lot brighter than the rear projection TV that you have now.
Mike,

Thanks so much for the response. My maximum throw will only be around 11' 6", which according to the DNP website is shorter than recommended for the 23-23 material with diagonals larger than 84". I'm sure those are generic recommendations tho. I sure wish they had a material between the .85 and 2.3 gain.

Thanks again,
AJ

Epson 5030UBe
118" Painted wall (Black Widow) (Dover Grey mixed 4:1 with AAA-F)
Marantz SR-6010 amp
Thiel CS .5 front speakers
SVS SB13-Ultra
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post #13 of 14 Old 04-29-2015, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Got the projector (pics shot directly on wall)

I received the Epson 5030UBe today. On days like today, I love the Fedex truck!

Wondering how bright it would be in my room was driving me crazy, so I had to try it out.

I placed the projector on the audio cabinet and aimed it at the opposite wall over the couch, shifted the image to the left and up and Voila projected TV!!

The following picture was shot with both windows open on that side of the room, I had a reading of 150Lux ambient light from the open windows! The picture has a width of 73" and is shifted as far left as the projector would allow, it's also not square, as I was just function testing the projector.

I can't even imagine how nice and bright this would be with a real screen!



I should receive the projector mount this weekend and can do some testing from it's permanent location. (maybe even upgrade the screen to a bedsheet) haha

AJ
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Epson 5030UBe
118" Painted wall (Black Widow) (Dover Grey mixed 4:1 with AAA-F)
Marantz SR-6010 amp
Thiel CS .5 front speakers
SVS SB13-Ultra
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post #14 of 14 Old 05-02-2015, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Got the Projector mounted and a DIY screen (48.5" x86" hardboard, primed kilz2 + Sherwin Williams Duration interior latex in Dover Grey, munsell N7.4)

Looks really good for all brighter type media (sports etc). Movies are a bit dark if I have the curtains open.

I definitely will need a brighter screen to watch movies during the day with the curtains open.

Overall, very very good picture with the Epson shooting 11' 5" to a 98" Diagonal.

Thanks to everyone on the forum for the great info I've found.


AJ

Epson 5030UBe
118" Painted wall (Black Widow) (Dover Grey mixed 4:1 with AAA-F)
Marantz SR-6010 amp
Thiel CS .5 front speakers
SVS SB13-Ultra
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