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post #211 of 1008 Old 09-18-2015, 01:32 PM
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I feel your pain on lack of updates...my basement is on slow-roll updating until the weather turns to fall/winter. I'll then get down there and finish up more of the project. Mine was a conversation from an outdated space, so its still a working basement. Good luck!

With respect to your dilemna on the soundproofing, What are you trying to prevent? Is there a sleeping room above the space? Are you trying to keep sound in or prevent it from getting out?

I've read many different beliefs, but pretty much 2 major thought processes. The one was that you either go all-in or you don't, meaning that the sound will find the least sound-proofed area and hit that. So if you're not doing the complete aquarium sound protection, then don't worry about. The second rule of thumb (what I subscribed to) is you have to do what you think is best for your situation.

If you choose the 2nd frame of thought, then you have to estimate the time in takes to insulate between the framing of the basement ceiling vs. the benefit of it to your soundproofing. If you believe that sound will escape your initial ceiling layers and travel up, then you have to access whether the additional drywall and greenglue, etc. will add enough value to make it worth your time. The other aspect is whether you will regret not doing it later. If you're spending all this time, energy, and analysis in making the best entertainment experience, do you want to kick yourself later for not taking a small extra step later? That's the real dilemna.

Gear: Visio 70" M701d-A3R LED TV | Denon x2100w AVR | Sony BDPS5100 (blu ray) | SONY PS3 | Polk 265-RT (L/R) | Polk 255C-RT (C) | Polk RC65i (L/R rear Surround) | Polk RC80i (L/R Surround) | SVS PB-2000 (Subwoofer) | Harmony Smart Control (Remote)

My basement reno: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...l#post33708177
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post #212 of 1008 Old 09-21-2015, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey @BasementHT5 ,
I was making pretty good progress in my sense of it until the last month..... and I just lost another weekend.... oh well had lot of fun with the guys even though my round of golf was sucky.

Soundproofing.... in my application it isn't really soundproofing but an "attempt" to reduce both sound leaving and sound entering. This is an 800sqft area in total but the theater sits directly under the living room. Other areas above the 800sqft are office, bedroom and dining room. To go all-in just is not feasible given the size and huge expense..... plus I am adamant on drop ceiling.... therefor I am into your second rule of thumb.

The "best" I can figure for my situation is insulation in all the ceiling joist I can and best efforts with insulation around ducting.
Given the drop ceiling my only other "better improvement" is to do drywall and GG also between the joists. My thought was to do just above the theater area, theoretically this will help with foot fall and "some" sound movement due to more mass. The thing is I don't really see any data on how much it may or may not help. The cost of even this starts adding up quick. This is were I am having the most trouble deciding and the cost benefit is tough to gauge.

Yes the good old regret later dilemma is always in the back of my mind

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post #213 of 1008 Old 09-25-2015, 01:32 PM
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It sounds (no pun intended) like you're doing a similar build. Due to massive pipes, access requirements, etc., I'm sticking with a drop ceiling. My living room (rarely if ever used) is directly above the theater portion of the build. My plan is simply to insulate the walls thoroughly, any HVAC components, and run R-13 in the ceiling between the joists.

I still have to finish replacing the old ceiling tiles to match the other parts of my basement (ceilume) and insulating between the ceiling joists. But, with the walls insulated and HVAC components insulated, the sound traveling is already substantially improved. The only issue I've experienced is the bath drain that runs down the front wall being loud when someone on the 2nd floor uses the toilet. I'll have to insulate around that more.

If I were to do it again, I would still choose to forego the green glue/drywall between the joists and just stick with the pink fluffy.

Should there be a noise issue, you could buy the insulation that sits directly on the ceiling tiles later. Good luck! I'll look forward to more updates.

Gear: Visio 70" M701d-A3R LED TV | Denon x2100w AVR | Sony BDPS5100 (blu ray) | SONY PS3 | Polk 265-RT (L/R) | Polk 255C-RT (C) | Polk RC65i (L/R rear Surround) | Polk RC80i (L/R Surround) | SVS PB-2000 (Subwoofer) | Harmony Smart Control (Remote)

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post #214 of 1008 Old 09-25-2015, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BasementHT5 View Post
I've read many different beliefs, but pretty much 2 major thought processes. The one was that you either go all-in or you don't, meaning that the sound will find the least sound-proofed area and hit that. So if you're not doing the complete aquarium sound protection, then don't worry about. The second rule of thumb (what I subscribed to) is you have to do what you think is best for your situation.

If you choose the 2nd frame of thought, then you have to estimate the time in takes to insulate between the framing of the basement ceiling vs. the benefit of it to your soundproofing. If you believe that sound will escape your initial ceiling layers and travel up, then you have to access whether the additional drywall and greenglue, etc. will add enough value to make it worth your time. The other aspect is whether you will regret not doing it later. If you're spending all this time, energy, and analysis in making the best entertainment experience, do you want to kick yourself later for not taking a small extra step later? That's the real dilema.

I agree, do what you think is best for your situation, but as I have read, it never hurts to add mass. Plus if you are thinking of it now and don't do it, then doing it later will be messy for a space that is finished and twice as aggravating.
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post #215 of 1008 Old 09-26-2015, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks @BasementHT5 and @24Changer

I would love to find some measurements or data on just the DDW and GG between the joist.

As I have no "real" world experience with this I pm'ed @snickers1 and @24Changer , both have installed DDW between there joist. snickers1 only installed the DDW and GG between the joist above his theater in an open concept area.

Both are agreeing that they noticed a marked improvement even with just the DW between the joists and also mentioned the possible regret of not doing it...... funny how that cones up a lot

I tend to have an analytical mind and this has really been a tough one for me with the lack of measured data. As a result of no measured data I fell back to subjective


So where does that put me........ in the lets do it category


I do not want to be sitting there and every time I hear a noise from above thinking.... WHAT IF and I can't help but feel that something is going to be better that nothing


I will be doing measurements with my db meter at each interval / layer.
Any feedback on my technique from this POST would be greatly appreciated. Trying to avoid the inevitable "oh well you should have done XYZ" that always seems to happen ...... maybe @granroth could chime in as he is the man on measuring


Thanks for following along in my adventure...... a long..... drawn out.... indecisive adventure

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post #216 of 1008 Old 09-26-2015, 01:12 PM
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If it was me, I would just do it. For the cost it is not going to break the bank. You will have "I wished I would have done" moments but this one you can avoid now. If you do take before /after measurements, it would be interesting to see what you find.
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post #217 of 1008 Old 09-27-2015, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Well...... finally got back at it this weekend and now I'm sore..... way out of shape. To much bending over putting in the last of the subfloor. ~80 final pieces.

In case you haven't picked up on this I am kind of "thrifty".... some might say cheap but I prefer thrifty
As a result the subfloor took awhile to finish as I would always wait for a sale of some sort. For my entire basement I have installed ~320 pieces over the course of way to long.
I just looked back in my cost tracking and I was able to save myself ~$360 buying on sale
Its not a lot but this is only one of many places that I have saved us money and at the moment have a running total of $4500 saved for the whole basement
Hopefully the more I save us the nicer the AV toys I will be allowed to buy....

At the end of it all I can put together a cost breakdown if others are interested

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post #218 of 1008 Old 09-27-2015, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Randomness
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." Red Green
jcr159 likes this.

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post #219 of 1008 Old 09-28-2015, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterboy77 View Post
randomness
"if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." red green
best

show

ever
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post #220 of 1008 Old 09-28-2015, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcr159 View Post
best

show

ever
LOL I was wondering if anyone would recognize this..... you must be Canadian eh

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post #221 of 1008 Old 09-28-2015, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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DIY Power Bridge

Fun little project with my daughter.
Cost $0.00
Watching my 5yr old using a box wrench PRICELESS

Lucked out and found all the parts in my electrical box to build the front end of my power bridge for the projector.
I knew I held on to these parts for a reason 10+ years ago


One of the hole saws I had was the perfect size to drill through the front plate, clamped down on drill press so it didn't spin out of control on me. A couple of nuts and screws from the miscellaneous bin and mounted.


Finish unit ready for mounting by the rack
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post #222 of 1008 Old 09-29-2015, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterboy77 View Post
LOL I was wondering if anyone would recognize this..... you must be Canadian eh
not quite...

consumed enough molson and labatt listening to London radio across the lake in college to get an honorary mention maybe...

loving your project, keep us (me?) posted, planning stages here, and in analysis paralysis.

good luck and "keep your stick on the ice...."
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post #223 of 1008 Old 10-02-2015, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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not quite...

consumed enough molson and labatt listening to London radio across the lake in college to get an honorary mention maybe...

loving your project, keep us (me?) posted, planning stages here, and in analysis paralysis.

good luck and "keep your stick on the ice...."

Drinking Molson and recognizing a Red Green reference is worthy of a honorary mention for sure
Get a thread going, lots of very helpful people on this forum.
As you are reading threads make good notes and links to things you like. I did not do a very good job of that in the planning states

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post #224 of 1008 Old 10-02-2015, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Footfall Simulation Theory

I would like to test the before results of simulated foot fall. Here is what I am thinking for tonight / tomorrow morning
Have my wife and or daughter walk heavily across the upstairs floor as I measure with my db meter below from MLP.
This will give me a rough idea of the db to try to duplicate in a repeatable simulation.
Then wrap a sledge hammer in a towel and drop from a set height and measure db below, vary height to "match" pervious measurement.
Location of hammer drop to be directly above MLP


THOUGHTS?

I want to get this done tonight so I can start installing GG / DW tomorrow
Thanks

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post #225 of 1008 Old 10-02-2015, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Footfall Baseline

A sledgehammer dropped from 4" directly over MLP with nothing in ceiling cavity measured at ~72db.
A five year old jumping up and down yields ~ 74db.... yes she thought I was crazy when I asked her to do it


I say about as I had my wife drop it 5 times in succession (3 different sets) and took the average of the higher 3 in each set.


Out of curiosity I also had her drop the hammer in an area that I have partially installed Ruxol in the cavity it measured in at ~68db


Subjectively it was loud and vibrated the ceiling in a wide area, even some (minor amount) of the HVAC ducting

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post #226 of 1008 Old 10-03-2015, 06:34 AM
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Interesting experiment... wish my wife was willing to help.

Are you just looking at the sound level on a meter, and it largely instantly pops up and back down?

I have wanted to do somethung similar, but hadn't thought of a good way yet.... I thought people walking above could vary, but a consistent drop of a sledge is interesting.

I have a variety of different set ups in my basement, all with the same Harwood above. I'll probably never get around to it, but now have an idea if I were to do it.

I have:
Subfloor (s.f.), r13, 5/8 dw

S.f, r13, clips & channel, 5/8 drywall

S.f., gg, 5/8 dw, r13, clips &channel, 5/8 d.w., g.g., 5/8 dw

And finally, in my theater room:

S.f., gg, 5/8 dw,g.g., 5/8 dw, r13, clips &channel, 5/8 d.w., g.g., 5/8 dw

Now with your test idea, it makes me want to try it out...
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post #227 of 1008 Old 10-03-2015, 08:22 AM
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Good methodology. I'd be concerned about getting something to simulate the higher frequency "clack" you get from things like hard sole shoes though... Your impacts are probably a lot lower in frequency than the typical stuff that is going to drive you nuts... No ideas yet on how to repeatable test that though...
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post #228 of 1008 Old 10-03-2015, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting experiment... wish my wife was willing to help.
Are you just looking at the sound level on a meter, and it largely instantly pops up and back down?
Hey kmhvball, I've been creeping your room for a while and it turned out great.
Unfortunately I was un able to find any data on just GG/DW bwtween the joist so I thought I would try and get some numbers.
Yes looking at pops of sound and thus the repeats and averages. My db meter doesn't have a graph

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmhvball View Post
I have wanted to do somethung similar, but hadn't thought of a good way yet.... I thought people walking above could vary, but a consistent drop of a sledge is interesting.

Now with your test idea, it makes me want to try it out...
Yes depending on the person the impact definitely changes..... thus I when with the extreme am jumping 5 yr old as a reference point. I wanted something I could duplicate easy for future tests. You should try it, I would be curious to know your results.

Just realized when responding to jcr159 that dropping a sledge from 4" onto hardwood or tile could damage it. So depending on the flooring be carful and maybe wrap it in a towel or something.... with my carpet this was not a concern to me

Quote:
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Good methodology. I'd be concerned about getting something to simulate the higher frequency "clack" you get from things like hard sole shoes though... Your impacts are probably a lot lower in frequency than the typical stuff that is going to drive you nuts... No ideas yet on how to repeatable test that though...
I have carpet with under pad above right now (on the future reno list to go to hardwood) so I don't really get the "clacky" sounds. Just the thud thud thud thud thud of my daughter running around

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post #229 of 1008 Old 10-03-2015, 11:09 AM
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I have carpet with under pad above right now (on the future reno list to go to hardwood) so I don't really get the "clacky" sounds. Just the thud thud thud thud thud of my daughter running around

Yeah, my bad... Thought you already had the hardwood... Mine is noisy from the creaks and groans of the boards moving against one another as people walk... Not so much from "footfall" as we all wear our socks and slippers inside...

I'm guessing if you address the lower freq stuff you'll take care of any higher frequencies that might come later though.

... And, hope you don't break anything with your testing!

That includes toes!
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post #230 of 1008 Old 10-12-2015, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Test Results one layer GG/DW in joists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterboy77 View Post
Results of Base Line Tests
With everythingoff and no one home:
MLP = 31db
Just outsidetheater pocket doors = 32db
Mid upstairsliving room = 30db

So pretty quiet ingeneral

At -10 on the AVRwith white noise track
MLP = 81db
Just outsidetheater pocket doors = 58db (-23)
Mid upstairsliving room = 46db (-35)

At 0 on the AVRwith white noise track
MLP = 88db
Just outsidetheater pocket doors = 71db (-17)
Mid upstairsliving room = 58db (-30)
Results of One Layer Tests
With everythingoff and no one home:
MLP = 31db
Just outsidetheater pocket doors = 35db
Mid upstairsliving room = 30db

At -10 on the AVRwith white noise track
MLP = 83db
Just outsidetheater pocket doors = 56db (-27)
Mid upstairsliving room = 43db (-40)

At 0 on the AVRwith white noise track
MLP = 89db
Just outsidetheater pocket doors = 69db (-20)
Mid upstairsliving room = 54db (-35)


So it looks like I have a 5db improvement from the addition of the one layer of GG/DW in the joists for sound escaping upstairs

I also redid the hammer drop but am only seeing a 2db drop from 72 to 70.... that was a little disappointing
Subjectively it was more "thud" like and did not seam to transfer the energy as far (HVAC did not rattle this time)

Next up second layer with more GG

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post #231 of 1008 Old 10-13-2015, 06:46 AM
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Which channel of white noise are you using?

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post #232 of 1008 Old 10-13-2015, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey @beastaudio the details of the baseline are in this post but to your question see the quote below

....... hope I didn't mess it up


Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterboy77 View Post
Downloaded a white noise track from http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_whitenoise.php

I choose white noise for it "flat" frequencies

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post #233 of 1008 Old 10-13-2015, 07:06 AM
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Ok so what sound mode is your AVR on? Dolby/DTS/Stereo? audyssey engaged or no? Is the output of the whitenoise track coming out of ALL speakers or just a couple? Also coming out of the sub?

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post #234 of 1008 Old 10-13-2015, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I will have to double check the sound mode when I am home later. But it has not changed between tests
Audyssey LOL my AVR is waaaay to old for that
Two speakers up front in the LR positions (Athena S1/P1)


Temporary set up just for testing and cranking tunes while working

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post #235 of 1008 Old 10-13-2015, 08:13 AM
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Cool. Getting the insulation in there is going to make the largest difference. With just standard insulation between my ceiling joists and additional between drop ceiling, There is no sound escaping from the theater, minus the bass frequencies. Those are virtually un-containable.

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Belly of the Beast: Bass Bunker Theater
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post #236 of 1008 Old 10-13-2015, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Cool. Getting the insulation in there is going to make the largest difference. With just standard insulation between my ceiling joists and additional between drop ceiling, There is no sound escaping from the theater, minus the bass frequencies. Those are virtually un-containable.

Ya, I wanted to do measurements at each layer of installation to get some data on the GG/DW between the floor joists as I could not find any.
At the end of the day I will have 2 layers of GG/DW between the joists (only above the theater) and insulation (Ruxol) in the entire basement ceiling


Did you fill your entire joist cavity with pink?

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post #237 of 1008 Old 10-13-2015, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Waterboy77 View Post
Ya, I wanted to do measurements at each layer of installation to get some data on the GG/DW between the floor joists as I could not find any.
At the end of the day I will have 2 layers of GG/DW between the joists (only above the theater) and insulation (Ruxol) in the entire basement ceiling


Did you fill your entire joist cavity with pink?
I would say it is 95% covered. The other 5% I couldn't get good coverage for some spots with the HVAC running all over the place. Everything up front near the subs and mains is well taken care of though.

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Belly of the Beast: Bass Bunker Theater
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post #238 of 1008 Old 10-13-2015, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I would say it is 95% covered. The other 5% I couldn't get good coverage for some spots with the HVAC running all over the place. Everything up front near the subs and mains is well taken care of though.

I am also going to have some ignorant spots to insulate (cold air returns that use the whole joist cavity)
Unfortunately my drop ceiling is tight to the joists.... so no extra can go there
Also planning on extra for the ceiling especially behind the false wall

One day I will start the new theater....... one day..... THAT DAY HAS ARRIVED
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." Red Green
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post #239 of 1008 Old 10-13-2015, 10:54 AM
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This is awesome information Waterboy. Thanks for posting the testing results. I don't have a db tester, so I just had to "play it by ear" with respect to the difference between no ceiling, ceiling with R19 pink, and ceiling w/ R19 and ceiling tiles. Each little layer further reduced noise coming in and going out. Although the 2 db drop was disappointing with 1 layer, I'm sure 2 layers will further multiply the reduction of noise. You're never going to have the full enclosed aquarium for sound with a drop ceiling, but you'll have the best you can do with what you have.

I'm OK with some noise leaving, so I opted to save the $ and time and bypass the drywall/GG between the joists.

Do you have a time/money expense for doing that yet? It would be nice at the end to clarify that for future research.

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post #240 of 1008 Old 10-13-2015, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok so what sound mode is your AVR on? Dolby/DTS/Stereo? audyssey engaged or no? Is the output of the whitenoise track coming out of ALL speakers or just a couple? Also coming out of the sub?
Hey beastaudio, I check at lunch and it's in Stereo. I have a netbook hooked up to an input (VCR1.... shows its age) also set on analog

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Originally Posted by BasementHT5 View Post
This is awesome information Waterboy. Thanks for posting the testing results. I don't have a db tester, so I just had to "play it by ear" with respect to the difference between no ceiling, ceiling with R19 pink, and ceiling w/ R19 and ceiling tiles. Each little layer further reduced noise coming in and going out. Although the 2 db drop was disappointing with 1 layer, I'm sure 2 layers will further multiply the reduction of noise. You're never going to have the full enclosed aquarium for sound with a drop ceiling, but you'll have the best you can do with what you have.

I'm OK with some noise leaving, so I opted to save the $ and time and bypass the drywall/GG between the joists.

Do you have a time/money expense for doing that yet? It would be nice at the end to clarify that for future research.
Thanks BasementHT5, I am certainly hoping 2 layers is way better for foot fall, the sound escaping was better at 5 db reduction. It certainly is not an aquarium but more like a barrier.
I don't have the final numbers yet (need to get some more 5/8" drywall and GG) but I can post some costs and labour when done

One day I will start the new theater....... one day..... THAT DAY HAS ARRIVED
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." Red Green
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