Family Cave Theater
FAMILY CAVE THEATER
Well after a lot of reading, planning, drawing the time has come to watch movies.
I would like to thank all the contributors to AVS and the time they spend to post their builds and help people.
Family Room Space: 24ft 5 inch x 32ft
Theater Area: 12.5ft x 20ft
Ceiling Height: 8.8ft
Doneish (Link).... some future plans for tweaks and improvements
All the pre planning paid off. Only a couple modifications to the over all design as I went along
Sketchup Over Head View
Sketchup Screen View
Sketchup Side View
THE DEVILS IN THE DETAILS
Oh the budget.... well I guess its going to be what its going to be. I will be tracking it like I have other renovations.... down to the penny. We don't have a fixed amount in mind but we are both pretty “thrifty”. That being said I will not cheap out on inferior products just to save a buck.
The majority will be DIY except carpet and muddling / taping
2015-05-05 HVAC Relocate
2015-05-29 Testing plans
2015-05-31 DIY Rack---- then ripped out
2015-06-15 Other TV Rough In
2015-06-24 New to Me Rack
2015-07-15 Sofit and wall framing
2015-07-28 Two post Rack install
2015-08-16 Electrical Rough in
2015-08-16 Low voltage wire chase
2015-09-28 DIY Power Bridge
2015-11-04 Drywall Starting
2015-11-09 Test results of double layer drywall between joists
2015-11-22 Drywall all hung
2015-11-29 Projector Ordered - rational for choosing
2015-12-02 Lotus Led Pot lights
2015-12-23 Paint and drop ceiling started
2016-01-07 Snapclip Ceiling
2016-01-14 Rack trim and Screen wall
2016-02-14 21" Subs come home
2016-02-15 Start of Frankenbox design discussions
2016-02-22 Franken Box drawings
2016-02-26 New to Me theater seating
2016-03-27 Berry comes home
2016-04-05 DIY Column Trim
2016-04-19 Marantz 7010
2016-05-02 Hitting the Wall
2016-05-15 Hanger for Projector
2016-05-21 FrankenBox 21" FTW LTE's in 14 cubes
2016-05-31 Sub air leak fixed
2016-06-12 AT Fabric Panels for surounds
2016-06-18 Painted the Berry Black
2016-07-11 DIY Cold Air Return Grill
2016-08-06 Rear Left SPeaker Panel
2016-08-15 Volt 6 Build
2016-08-16 Leason Learned on SPL db vs db
2016-09-06 Donish anouncement
2016-09-08 DIY Spandex Screen 124"
2016-09-27 DIY Rack lacing bars for 2 Post Rack Shelves
2016-10-10 Harmony Companion Remote
Nothing to the extent that others have done. Given its an open area ~800sqft, financially to sound proof would be way beyond what we feel comfortable with. Given the drop ceiling requirement..... another strike against full on drop ceiling.
Insulation (ruxol safe and sound) between joist cavities
Drywall between joist also- TEST RESULTS of just double layer drywall and GG between floor joists
This subject makes me scratch my head the most..... TBD
Start of discusion on profesional services
Receiver – Marantz SR7010
Telus Satelite Box (2)
HTPC – TDB
LCR – Mackie C200
Surrounds – Volt 6's
Atmos - One day......
Subs – Two FTW LTE 21" subs in 14 cub sealed cabinets
Head phones – Sony XXX – existing
Inuke NU6000DSP for two 21" subs
Rew or Omnimic - TBD
NAS - Lenovo something or another
Switch - 16 port Gigabit
2 Post Rach that my Wife found on FB for Free 2015-06-24 New to Me Rack
Projector and Screen
Projector - Epson 5030UB - Rational here
Screen – DIY AT Spandex 120” 16:9
Mount - Peerless PRGS-UNV-W
Drop Ceiling.... I know sound proofing will suck but access to me is very important in a basement for future proofing and issues.
Snap Clip system Found Here
Moving one of my main trunk lines to make the room more ascetically pleasing and balanced
Automation / Control
TBD – looking at Insteon with ISY at the moment
TBD – iRule
Great site for a lot of electronics theory and calculations
Wire sizing based on ohm, watts and length
WinISD 0.7x download for sub cabinet sizing
Thiele - Small Analysis of Loudspeaker Enclosures
Flat speaker wire
I feel honored that my room is helping inspire part of your room.
I am subscribed and look forward to watching the progress!!!!!
Thanks for joining the ride!
When I saw your screen wall it was immediately copied and pasted into my love it list.
Although not shown in my sketchup drawing yet (still trying to figure out textures) it will be just like yours with rock wall and led lighting.
Only difference is I am doing a AT screen
Thoughts on Reducing Screen Wall Depth
Didn't' want to take over https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...ml]this thread so I copied over the conversation on trying to reduce the space that I have behind my AT screen.
It is currently is drawn at 24" from wall to wall. The speekers shown are Mackie C200's for dimensional reference.
What about DIY enclosures to reduce it even more?
The only part of the screen wall that is AT is the screen its self..... how will that impact the potential sub locations?
But the screen will be AT and all front speakers behind
Here are a couple of additional views of the screen wall
Ya I went a little crazy in sketchup and drew right down to the studs in a lot of places....... Glad a did as I discovered a couple areas that needed a closer look
Any feed back is appreciated
Top View ..... bit of an angle
Any feed back / suggestions on my plan for the "closed in" screen wall in the images above?
Well, you can close in the sides, but as JVoth mentioned, you're going to be restricting speaker and sub location. Most screen walls are fully AT, since even the masking panels on the side are AT.
You also want to be careful with how close you have your speakers to the back of the screen. Too close and the air pushed by the woofers can move the screen, I'm told.
Finally, you'll want to "toe in" your speakers and having them as close together as you show does make that slightly trickier. You'll have more wiggle room if they are closer to the side walls, and blasting through the AT side panels.
Hey ganroth thanks for looking and your insite
At the moment the "wow" factor and it being something different is winning out. I hate to say it as typically I am a very practical guy but "pretty over practical".
One baffle wall design that @BrolicBeast posted, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...l#post33550153 , has the speakers well with in the perimeter of the screen, and "toed in" at a pretty good angle. Its a 144"W 16:9 at 13' 5" to front row seating (1.1x width) I'm currently at 1.4x width. I'm pretty sure he is doing fabric on the front wall...... not a lot cause his screen is HUGE but still AT front wall.
One thing that I also debated in length is the 16:9 vs 2.35:1 vs 2:1, 16:9 at the moment is the winner, but 2.35:1 would really help with this speaker placement decision
Image with Dolby 7.1 recommended angles for speakers and additional dimension information
I'm not an expert on this particular subject, though, so I can't really say anything definitively.
One link, though: http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/room-...ker-placement/
That's an excellent series on setting up speakers and it includes quite a bit of info on placement. No mention of AT screens, though, since it tends to be focused on music vs theaters.
More than likely I'm going to have mine directly facing the MLP, since they will be so far apart.
EDIT: The article was shared by @Mfusick from his Dropbox page. I don't know if he wrote it or not. I also don't know if he intends for it be shared widely or not, so I won't link to it. Maybe he'll stop by and clarify.
Mike's okay with sharing his article on toe-ing in speakers, so it's here: Setup of Speakers (PDF)
Well that was a crazy three hours.........
Thanks to my cousin we just move about 25 ft of my main heating duct over to the other side of the main support beam
Reconnected the existing feeds to upstairs and re routed a couple.
I still have to tape all most of the seams and do some temporary connections for the basement ducts
Have to say what took us 3 hour would have taken just me 3 days, and I got a family discount on material and labor :D
To tired right now but I will post some pictures and more details in the following days
I didn't write it. I acquired it. I can't take credit. But yes it was decent. I forgot where I got it. Probably another thread, as I have seen it linked before. But I do some emailing too might have got it there.
You'll not have to worry about how close the Mackie C200 are to the AT screen You can have them right up against it and you won't get any movement. The ports are plenty big on the Mackie C200 and I've never seen them move my screen even though they are right up against the AT fabric. Also you'll likely cross them over at 80hz or there abouts - and you'll probably never see the 10" driver move much at all - even at reference levels.
You will want to toe the Mackie C200 in. I personally like them aimed at the center seat position.
I'm still happy with these Mackie C200 --- with Audyssey mutiXT32 engaged and for the price I don't know how you could really beat them - even with DIY. Street price is $170 shipped at nearly any bigbox movie store with the recurring 15% off coupons that are generally available on any given holiday.
I got compliments on them from some of the KC home theater crawl folk. They far outperform their pricepoint, and excel for a very inexpensive cinema speaker. I've been around the block on the home theater electronics circuit and found I think a practical and reasonably inexpensive setup like the Mackie C200 really delivers to levels, and beyond, that general enthusiasts seek. Yes there are better speakers, and some might want or need more --- assuming the requirements of above reference listening -- that's fun for a quick demo --- but really I'm never going to listen to a full movie that loud. (at least I don't think so) :) If money was no object, then something like JTR would be my absolute go to (something like @dlbeck 's theater with all JTR speakers is nothing short of phenomenal)---- but if funds aren't unlimited, I'm satisfied with where I landed on the price to performance scale.
When @Scott Simonian visited from CA for the recent KC Home Theater tour, he and @Luke Kamp, and I , and a friend of Luke's watched Gravity at -3dB from Reference and that's the loudest I've actually ever watched a full length movie in my theater. I thought the sound was great and didn't notice a single weakness from the speakers the entire movie. The center channel voices sounded crystal clear - no small boxy sound that typically spews from inexpensive or overdriven speakers. I have no reason to listen to a movie louder than that. In fact, though it was fun and sounded great, I typically wouldn't even listen that loud -- preferring more like -12dB as my typical go to volume --- of course with the subwoofers running 6-15dB hot - depending on the movie. When a scene that is really cool arrives, sometimes I'll rewind and pump the volume -- but for the full - movie -- I don't need it at reference levels.
Hey Archaea, Thanks for the tips on the speaker to screen distance.
Any thoughts on my plan? Open to any and all suggestions
Things have been crazy at work and by the time I get home I'm to tired to even look at my computer
I haven't even had time to post pic of the big HVAC move yet
So final taking the time to post the pictures of the HVAC trunk line move.
Big thanks to my cousin for coming out and getting this done with the family discount price :D
The big reason I wanted to move the line is to remove an ugly transition / 90 degree turn that would have made for terrible bump out, for symmetry in the theater area and to center the ducting on the beam and the columns
For some obscure reason I can not find my before pictures
The closes I have is my plan with the HVAC added
the removal of the old run started
The old run out
New transition piece
The new line in
Its a little further out than I wanted but we had to clear a gas line at the far end
Also had to do a spur of the moment reducing portion.... measure twice:eek:
He also left me a bunch of parts to finish up the basement heating ducts and a new cold air return
I also need to finish taping all seams
I could really use some feedback on a decision I am trying to make on design services vs. DIY
Lately I have been questioning my design and lack of knowledge on room acoustics. So I reached out to @Nyal Mellor on the services that he offers. We discussed the costs associated with the five core services, acoustic plan and design review. He is great and answered my questions promptly..... I hope I wasn't to annoying.
I am not baulking at the price as it seams very in line with the time an effort that would be required to put together the plans and design. I am not posting the costs as I do not know if that is allowed.
My dilemmas are:
With some of the challenges my space / design faces would a health financial investment to a professional design service yield the return that would make it notably better than a personally researched solution?
Hope it not to much rambling, please help as hours of sleep are being lost on this
I think professional design services yield benefit.
So do capable speakers, and all the more for capable subwoofers.
However, I think that with just some homework and reading on the forums (something you seem willing to do) you can derive a enjoyable experience without the expense of professional services. (not that professional services don't have their place)
We recently hosted a KC home theater crawl with five different hosts in greatly differing rooms and with greatly differing costs of equipment/room. Two were professionally designed and setup, three were not - I enjoyed each and every room on the crawl.
Craig John implemented a dead front, live back room design, and it remains, perhaps, my favorite room treatment for sound of those I've visited.
As for drop ceiling. Look long and hard at Certainteed Theater Black F tiles. They work EXCELLENTLY, 3% light reflectivity, and .75 NRC. Put R30 pink fluffy above them in the floor joists and you'll have a much higher NRC. They don't rattle either like typical white drop ceiling tiles. My original white ceiling tiles rattled like mad everytime the bass hit. My certainteed tiles are silent. No changes to the grid. If I had to describe them, they are basically OC703 tiles with a light absorbing black material on one side.
My two cents, and FULLY understand you may have different standards or tastes so feel free to take or leave these....
1) Screen Wall - The rock wall could be done with an acoustically transparent screen. I can think of a few really cool designs you could use. Buy or build in-wall speakers. And I'm not talking about the normal big company in-walls. I'm talking stuff comparable to the C200's you mentioned above. This would provide you with the look you want and the performance you desire.
2) Nothing wrong with a drop ceiling. I would stuff insulation between the floor joists to contain the sound in the room. A few diffusors could be used instead of the normal ceiling panels to prevent over absorbing sound (if needed). This can be done afterwards, one of the benefits of a drop ceiling.
3) Nothing wrong with how 'cheap' you are. I am exactly the same way and that's why I spent less in building my room than the quote I received for acoustic help. I'm sure my room could sound better, but if it was 10% better than what I designed myself, it isn't woth it in my eyes. :)
Long story short, I don't think any of the problems you mentioned above are going to be deal breakers. I think you can continue down the full DIY path with the help of the amazing people on this forum.
Do the five hosts have build threads I can go through?
What did Craig John do for treatments?
Do you know what their factors where for using and not using professional services?
I already have the drop ceiling purchased, I love the look of it and have had many compliments on it in the area that I have finished
That being said I am concerned about the reflective nature of the product (light and sound) and potential rattles.
They are coated 1/4" MDF so no absorption at all. With this system I only lose 1.5" of head room
This is an image from there web page
As deewan mentioned if I find it unacceptable I will switch out or modify the tiles that are an issue, playing this one by ear
I don't doubt your ceiling rattled with all that power your pushing :D
One key reason for AT is to hide all the speakers, even surrounds will be hidden in columns
My gut is telling me I will need absorption on the ceiling but I indent to measure the room and decide later. Like you said that is the nice part of drop ceilings
FYI your one of the amazing people on this forum....... (yes blatant suck up:D)
I'm solidly in the "DIY 4 Life" camp, so I'll never completely dissuade somebody from going that route. :D
But... even I have to admit that going DIY for various design aspects isn't really for everybody. Here are two ways that it can absolutely work:
1. You are okay with "pretty good" results, which can be gotten via some relatively generic advice, and are willing to spend some time to get it
2. You want stellar results, but are willing to be staggering amounts of time to research and test as you go
I think a lot of people are actually in the first camp but don't realize how good the sound can be with just a few simple treatments. That'll never satisfy an audiophile, but MOST people aren't audiophiles and have never even heard an audiophile-grade system.
The latter group is honestly pretty rare. Most of the people who want top-notch results will find that their time is much better spent doing something else and hiring a pro.
Keep in mind the time factor, though. No DIY solution is going to leave you as much free time as paying a pro for a plan.
When it came to my room and the acoustic treatments, my decision was pretty easy. I had spent over a year researching acoustic design and felt I had a good idea what I needed to do for my room. When I got the quote for the professional help, I had sticker shock. The amount for just the design was at the upper end of what I wanted to spend for the design and gear/equipment. Don't get me wrong, I am sure it would be worth it. It just wasn't worth it to me since I had already invested time and the things being communicated to me about my room were already things I knew.
I will tackle all Reno projects except mudding/taping and Carpet
As noted I am not an audiophile but don't want to "settle" for good.
Did ever entertain the use of professional design services?
So was the year of research the trigger for your change to your room?
Besides AVS and the wealth of knowledge here, what other sources did you go to for your research?
I have Toole's book that I need to start reading in my spare time (or lack of)
At what point would you all say that construction should stop to address acoustic issues?
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