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post #1 of 46 Old 10-31-2017, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Atmos ceiling placement (couch near rear wall)

I am in the process of adding 4 Klipsch CDT-5650cii speakers to my ceiling for Atmos/DTSx duty.

I've read the Dolby suggestions on placement, unfortunately I have a wall 1' behind my couch, so I can't place them at the suggested 135 degrees. My plan is to get them as far back as possible, which puts them directly next to the rear wall.

Would this cause frequency response issues?
Is there a minimum distance you would leave between a ceiling speaker and the rear wall?

My plan is to shift the Top Front a bit forward to right around 35 degrees elevation while seated compared to the normal 45 degrees.

I tried searching, but is anyone aware of any other couch on rear wall 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 installs? I'd love to get other peoples feedback.

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post #2 of 46 Old 10-31-2017, 01:55 PM
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In your situation, I would actually go with a 5.1.2 setup. I don't think you will miss much from the other two height channels since Dolby Atmos adjusts to the speaker placement.
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post #3 of 46 Old 11-01-2017, 04:26 AM
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I'd go with a X.X.2 system too.

I have a similar issue with my rear row near the back wall, but I just didn't worry about it because my MLP is the front row.
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post #4 of 46 Old 11-02-2017, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Speakers showed up so I'm going to just go ahead and mount them. I haven't found anything specific to my situation, so I'm just going to leave a 1/2" gap between the grill and the wall and call it good.

I'm also going to see how the room works out if I move the seating another 8-12" forward. That would give me a much better angle to the TopRears.

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post #5 of 46 Old 11-02-2017, 01:48 PM
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Specs say 0.75 room width. Ie 12.5% out from walls. I initially went closer and moving in to within spec was an improvement.
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post #6 of 46 Old 11-04-2017, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by andringa View Post
Speakers showed up so I'm going to just go ahead and mount them. I haven't found anything specific to my situation, so I'm just going to leave a 1/2" gap between the grill and the wall and call it good.

I'm also going to see how the room works out if I move the seating another 8-12" forward. That would give me a much better angle to the TopRears.
I’m in a similiar situation with seating near the back wall.

Did you mount your Atmos speakers yet and did you go with all 4 including the rear Atmos speakers? If so, how did it work out for you?

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post #7 of 46 Old 11-06-2017, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bob Fosse View Post
I’m in a similiar situation with seating near the back wall.

Did you mount your Atmos speakers yet and did you go with all 4 including the rear Atmos speakers? If so, how did it work out for you?
Hey Bob, I got all four mounted and setup this weekend, I'll try to remember and grab some pictures.

The Dolby demos are pretty awesome, but I was expecting a bit more activity from movies. I watched Lego Batman with the kids and parts of the Fifth Element, and I think I need to do some more tweaking with the audyssey calibration and channel levels.
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post #8 of 46 Old 11-06-2017, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by andringa View Post
Hey Bob, I got all four mounted and setup this weekend, I'll try to remember and grab some pictures.

The Dolby demos are pretty awesome, but I was expecting a bit more activity from movies. I watched Lego Batman with the kids and parts of the Fifth Element, and I think I need to do some more tweaking with the audyssey calibration and channel levels.
Thanks. Did you move your couch forward a bit? If not, are you happy with the placement with your couch near the back wall. My installer is coming today and I’m trying to figure out if I should just go with 5.1.2 since I don’t have an option to move my couch further out in the room. As is both the rear surrounds and rear ceiling in wall Atmos speakers would be on the back wall and ceiling accordingly. I’m not sure if this would work as intended by Dolby Atmos. I don’t want to make a mistake of punching holes in the ceiling if the results don’t yield good results.

Please send pictures when you get a chance and keep us update on your impressions.

Thanks and appreciated Bob

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post #9 of 46 Old 11-06-2017, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bob Fosse View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by andringa View Post
Hey Bob, I got all four mounted and setup this weekend, I'll try to remember and grab some pictures.

The Dolby demos are pretty awesome, but I was expecting a bit more activity from movies. I watched Lego Batman with the kids and parts of the Fifth Element, and I think I need to do some more tweaking with the audyssey calibration and channel levels.
Thanks. Did you move your couch forward a bit? If not, are you happy with the placement with your couch near the back wall. My installer is coming today and I?m trying to figure out if I should just go with 5.1.2 since I don?t have an option to move my couch further out in the room. As is both the rear surrounds and rear ceiling in wall Atmos speakers would be on the back wall and ceiling accordingly. I?m not sure if this would work as intended by Dolby Atmos. I don?t want to make a mistake of punching holes in the ceiling if the results don?t yield good results.

Please send pictures when you get a chance and keep us update on your impressions.

Thanks and appreciated Bob
It turns out I have one photo from when I was positioning the templates.

Dolby spec for Top Front and Top Rear is 45 degrees from level in front of and behind the seating.

Since the rear wall pushed the Top Rear forward, I chose to push the Top Front a bit farther forward to maintain separation.

The couch was moved back closer to the wall after install. Side surrounds are Klipsch-160m on end tables at either end of the couches.

I?m currently using some old bookshelf speakers for rear surrounds, but am considering wall hanging Klipsch rp-250s, or in wall Klipsch R-5650-S ii
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post #10 of 46 Old 11-06-2017, 09:57 AM
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It turns out I have one photo from when I was positioning the templates.

Dolby spec for Top Front and Top Rear is 45 degrees from level in front of and behind the seating.

Since the rear wall pushed the Top Rear forward, I chose to push the Top Front a bit farther forward to maintain separation.

The couch was moved back closer to the wall after install. Side surrounds are Klipsch-160m on end tables at either end of the couches.ii
@andringa . Thanks so much for your follow up with pictures.

My dealer installer just called me about my concerns and they have set up some similiar setups to mine including one in their store. They are going to mount all four ceiling speakers with the front ceiling pair mounted closer to MLP. They have had good results in doing this and have tried various arrangements before.

Before they do anything and proceed, I will get a rundown on their exact plans. In my case I am forced with my rear surrounds on the back wall due to the limitations of the room. There is a hallway entrance to the left side of the back of the room which prevents me from locating rear surrounds on the side walls. Incidentally, my designated HT room is very small 11x11.5 with small hallway entrance so I am limited for placement.

A/V SYSTEM: Sony A9G 77” (main), Sony A9F 65”, Sony A8G 65”, Anthem 525, Anthem AVM 60, Sonus Faber Amati Futura, ProAc Response CC, AT surrounds, JL112E, Oppo 203 103 83, TiVo Bolt, Apple 4KTV, Shunyata Triton 3/Denali v2, Auralex room tx, black out curtains
2 CHANNEL STEREO: Aurender N10, Ayre QX-5 & PS Audio DS DACs, PS Audio DMP SACD transport, Ayre KX-R 20 preamp, Ayre MX-R 20 amp, Sonus Faber Stradivari.
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post #11 of 46 Old 11-06-2017, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bob Fosse View Post
@andringa . Thanks so much for your follow up with pictures.

My dealer installer just called me about my concerns and they have set up some similiar setups to mine including one in their store. They are going to mount all four ceiling speakers with the front ceiling pair mounted closer to MLP. They have had good results in doing this and have tried various arrangements before.

Before they do anything and proceed, I will get a rundown on their exact plans. In my case I am forced with my rear surrounds on the back wall due to the limitations of the room. There is a hallway entrance to the left side of the back of the room which prevents me from locating rear surrounds on the side walls. Incidentally, my designated HT room is very small 11x11.5 with small hallway entrance so I am limited for placement.
Glad it helped, good luck!

Like I said, I'm still working on my rear surround solution. My first concern with doing .4 in ceilings was that the Top Rears and Rear Surrounds would be redundant, but in reality, my biggest issue with it right now, is that the rear surrounds are really easy to localize. There is good separation between the Top Rears and the Rear Surrounds but the Rear Surrounds are so close to the MLP, that I think a wide dispersion speaker would be better.

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post #12 of 46 Old 11-06-2017, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andringa View Post
I am in the process of adding 4 Klipsch CDT-5650cii speakers to my ceiling for Atmos/DTSx duty.

I've read the Dolby suggestions on placement, unfortunately I have a wall 1' behind my couch, so I can't place them at the suggested 135 degrees. My plan is to get them as far back as possible, which puts them directly next to the rear wall.

Would this cause frequency response issues?
Is there a minimum distance you would leave between a ceiling speaker and the rear wall?

My plan is to shift the Top Front a bit forward to right around 35 degrees elevation while seated compared to the normal 45 degrees.

I tried searching, but is anyone aware of any other couch on rear wall 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 installs? I'd love to get other peoples feedback.
Im kind of in a similar situation as I plan on buying new speakers after the first of the year to replace my LCR and surrounds, and thought about using the existing surrounds as front height/atmos speakers mounted near the ceiling above and behind my tv on the wall it currently sits on. I just don't know if it would be worth the trouble to do it or not.
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post #13 of 46 Old 11-06-2017, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Im kind of in a similar situation as I plan on buying new speakers after the first of the year to replace my LCR and surrounds, and thought about using the existing surrounds as front height/atmos speakers mounted near the ceiling above and behind my tv on the wall it currently sits on. I just don't know if it would be worth the trouble to do it or not.
If you have a capable AVR and extra speakers, you might as well try it out!

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post #14 of 46 Old 11-06-2017, 10:28 AM
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If you have a capable AVR and extra speakers, you might as well try it out!
I am curious though as to which would be the better option front height or front atmos, since I can use the amp assign to pick one or the other. Really I guess the question would be in which setting would they be used the most often.
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post #15 of 46 Old 07-05-2018, 01:17 PM
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@andringa . Thanks so much for your follow up with pictures.

My dealer installer just called me about my concerns and they have set up some similiar setups to mine including one in their store. They are going to mount all four ceiling speakers with the front ceiling pair mounted closer to MLP. They have had good results in doing this and have tried various arrangements before.

Before they do anything and proceed, I will get a rundown on their exact plans. In my case I am forced with my rear surrounds on the back wall due to the limitations of the room. There is a hallway entrance to the left side of the back of the room which prevents me from locating rear surrounds on the side walls. Incidentally, my designated HT room is very small 11x11.5 with small hallway entrance so I am limited for placement.
Bob can you give an update on what layout you with and how it turned out?
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post #16 of 46 Old 07-05-2018, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Fosse View Post
@andringa . Thanks so much for your follow up with pictures.

My dealer installer just called me about my concerns and they have set up some similiar setups to mine including one in their store. They are going to mount all four ceiling speakers with the front ceiling pair mounted closer to MLP. They have had good results in doing this and have tried various arrangements before.

Before they do anything and proceed, I will get a rundown on their exact plans. In my case I am forced with my rear surrounds on the back wall due to the limitations of the room. There is a hallway entrance to the left side of the back of the room which prevents me from locating rear surrounds on the side walls. Incidentally, my designated HT room is very small 11x11.5 with small hallway entrance so I am limited for placement.
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Bob can you give an update on what layout you with and how it turned out?
My dealer located my ceiling Atmos speakers as close to the Dolby specs as possible, but as mentioned in my previous post, I am stuck with my surrounds on the back wall. However, they are slanted in toward the MLP, but don’t give undue localization unless called for in a movie.

With my placement limitations, I had a quite a bit of trepidation with adding Atmos, but in the end it is quite convincing not only to my ears, but also to my guests who are also are impressed including my wife who is normally not into these kind of things.

In summary, adding Atmos is a significant upgrade and much more so than I expected with convincing panning of sound from front to back and height effects. Car chases, helicopter flyovers, and ambience throughout the room has vastly improved with the addition of Atmos.

BTW, I use Anthem Room Correction for audio calibration of my system which has proven to be excellent.

A/V SYSTEM: Sony A9G 77” (main), Sony A9F 65”, Sony A8G 65”, Anthem 525, Anthem AVM 60, Sonus Faber Amati Futura, ProAc Response CC, AT surrounds, JL112E, Oppo 203 103 83, TiVo Bolt, Apple 4KTV, Shunyata Triton 3/Denali v2, Auralex room tx, black out curtains
2 CHANNEL STEREO: Aurender N10, Ayre QX-5 & PS Audio DS DACs, PS Audio DMP SACD transport, Ayre KX-R 20 preamp, Ayre MX-R 20 amp, Sonus Faber Stradivari.
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post #17 of 46 Old 07-06-2018, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Fosse View Post
My dealer located my ceiling Atmos speakers as close to the Dolby specs as possible, but as mentioned in my previous post, I am stuck with my surrounds on the back wall. However, they are slanted in toward the MLP, but don’t give undue localization unless called for in a movie.

With my placement limitations, I had a quite a bit of trepidation with adding Atmos, but in the end it is quite convincing not only to my ears, but also to my guests who are also are impressed including my wife who is normally not into these kind of things.

In summary, adding Atmos is a significant upgrade and much more so than I expected with convincing panning of sound from front to back and height effects. Car chases, helicopter flyovers, and ambience throughout the room has vastly improved with the addition of Atmos.

BTW, I use Anthem Room Correction for audio calibration of my system which has proven to be excellent.
Thanks for the following up Bob and that's great to hear that you had success given your room limitations. Your experience seems to echo what I've read from most people about setting up Atmos slightly out of spec. I've been excited to make the jump for a while but I've been concerned about my room constraints. Hearing your experience definitely helps ease my mind. Thanks again!
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post #18 of 46 Old 09-03-2018, 06:50 AM
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So how does the atmos .4 setup sound now a year on?? I'm in a similar boat with couch at back wall so top rears are going to be more above my couch rather than properly behind like atmos spec.

Did you find they work best in top front/top rear, or front height/top mid configuration??
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post #19 of 46 Old 09-27-2018, 05:25 PM
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So how does the atmos .4 setup sound now a year on?? I'm in a similar boat with couch at back wall so top rears are going to be more above my couch rather than properly behind like atmos spec.

Did you find they work best in top front/top rear, or front height/top mid configuration??
I am also in the same boat-was hoping to put 5.1.4 in my basement media room but the sectional goes against the back wall. I have convinced my wife (reluctantly) that I will need to move the couch out between a foot and 16 inches max (all that she will allow cause of silly look). I am really hoping it will not be too crowded in the back listening area with the back surrounds and the side surrounds just barely behind the main listening positions....

Really don’t want to go 5.1.2 unless the sound is terrible.

Was thinking of getting bipoles for the heights to prevent localization effects but hope that doesn’t have a detrimental effect for the front heights since they would otherwise be best with monopole

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Is it possible to do top front and top middle only instead of top front and top rear?
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nevermind, just read you can't.
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post #22 of 46 Old 10-14-2018, 05:15 AM
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Guys I hope you are still checking this thread.
As I am also in a similar position as most of you, with the sitting area close to the wall, I would appreciate your help and suggestions on what would be best, considering my room situation and your experience.
To be more accurate I have drawn a side view of the room, and numbered/lettered the potential positions for the 4 Atmos speakers.
You can see from the drawings that my LP is close to the rear wall and I cannot implement the Dolby suggested angles for the back height speakers, taking in consideration the height of the ceiling.
I even don’t know if these can be in-ceiling as I have only half an inch of plaster followed by brick and concrete to deal with afterwards.
The plan is to add the 4 Atmos speakers to my existing B&W 5.1 set up and my Benq HT3050 PJ.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts

Cheers
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post #23 of 46 Old 10-14-2018, 12:51 PM
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You can definitely make Atmos work - don’t fear!

Which of those positions can you actually use for in-ceilings?? Do you have access into the ceiling cavity to look where beams are etc so you can work out which placement options just would t work due to beams etc?

Also, how are you
planning to run wires?

What WAF issues do you need to work around? Would they be happy with rear heights wall mounted if needed?
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post #24 of 46 Old 10-14-2018, 01:56 PM
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You can definitely make Atmos work - don’t fear!

Which of those positions can you actually use for in-ceilings?? Do you have access into the ceiling cavity to look where beams are etc so you can work out which placement options just would t work due to beams etc?

Also, how are you
planning to run wires?

What WAF issues do you need to work around? Would they be happy with rear heights wall mounted if needed?
Thanks for replying
Well I was thinking of using positions 1 for the fronts and 10 or 11 for the back heights.
I am afraid that I would have the sound dispersion of the rear heights hit the back wall and create unwanted sound waves.
As for WAF issues, it looks like I am going to go for on-ceiling.
Additionally, to avoid any ugly wiring I am also thinking about installing two wooden beams across the room which would complement the room aesthetically.
Those would be used to install/hang the speakers on and also run the wires through in total camouflage.

The positions which I noted with letters are actually in case wall mounted rears would sound better than on-ceiling, considering the back wall proximity.

How did you manage your situation?
Cheers
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post #25 of 46 Old 10-14-2018, 02:27 PM
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Ideally you’d put your top fronts at ~-10 as you can’t run top mids and top rears. Needs to have 1 layer between them on the receiver - top fronts and top rears, or top mids and rear heights.

Ideal for 5.1.4 is top front and top rears as per Dolby spec. As your couch is off the wall, you should be fine at position 10/11 with top rears. Especially if you can angle the tweeter to adjust a little as needed.

I wanted to have mine at equivalent of ~ position 11 or 12, but have a stud/beam above the gyprock at that point at the front of the room so the installer ended up putting them 50cm from the wall.

Was disappointed with this, and means he installed my rears 50cm off the back wall as well for symmetry even though I said I didn’t care about symmetry and wanted the rears as far back as possible. But he’d already started cutting before I noticed and so the easier WAF option was to suck it up and accept the less than ideal placement t rather than have a 8” hole in ceiling patched and repainted.

Ended up having to get an installer in to help wire the cables out through floor, under house, up outside of house in a weather proof conduit, and the into crawl space by drilling through side of outside wall.

All that said - while less than ideal placement, still sounds great and I haven’t had any moments where my ears have said “that sound should’ve been coming from further back” most atmos content seems to be wind/rain/shrapnel showering down etc that isn’t very fussy on location, at least from the 10 or so movies and shows I’ve watched in atmos
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post #26 of 46 Old 10-15-2018, 08:56 AM
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Wow you went through a lot there. Hope it was worth it.
From my calculation I am going to miss the real 45 degree angle on the Top Rear for 80 cm from position 11.
I just dont know if it is better to go further back with the TR but closer to the wall, or closer to the LP and further from the wall in the back?!

Cheers
MG
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post #27 of 46 Old 10-15-2018, 02:05 PM
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I’d go further back, and closer to wall and aim the tweeter forward towards the MLP.

Or just mount rear heights on the rear wall if you’re worried. Will give you maximum “rearness” and will be aimed away from wall 🙂
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post #28 of 46 Old 10-22-2018, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgida View Post
Guys I hope you are still checking this thread.
As I am also in a similar position as most of you, with the sitting area close to the wall, I would appreciate your help and suggestions on what would be best, considering my room situation and your experience.
To be more accurate I have drawn a side view of the room, and numbered/lettered the potential positions for the 4 Atmos speakers.
You can see from the drawings that my LP is close to the rear wall and I cannot implement the Dolby suggested angles for the back height speakers, taking in consideration the height of the ceiling.
I even don’t know if these can be in-ceiling as I have only half an inch of plaster followed by brick and concrete to deal with afterwards.
The plan is to add the 4 Atmos speakers to my existing B&W 5.1 set up and my Benq HT3050 PJ.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts

Cheers
MG
Following, same 17' room, and about the same distance from the wall. Have had a few different installers out with varying opinions on 2 vs 4, as the back 4 would be very close to the back wall of course. I hate to pay to have wires run right past that spot and then later decide that I want speakers there!
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post #29 of 46 Old 10-22-2018, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Johnson View Post

Following, same 17' room, and about the same distance from the wall. Have had a few different installers out with varying opinions on 2 vs 4, as the back 4 would be very close to the back wall of course. I hate to pay to have wires run right past that spot and then later decide that I want speakers there!
I’m firmly of the opinion 4 in-ceilings even if slightly off ideal positioning is better than 2. And you can always tell your receiver to only use 2 instead of 4 if for some reason the rear speakers near the walls cause you issues that you can’t put up with.

Paying an installer for an extra 30 mins of work to wire 4 instead of 2 in ceilings isnt much, and of all the speakers you buy the in-ceiling are the cheapest, so I say go with 4 🙂
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post #30 of 46 Old 11-23-2018, 10:35 PM
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Hi,



Another person in a similar situation here.


Luckily I have my sofa 31" from the rear wall. Head position is about 40 inches from the rear wall. I think that 45 degress is 50" from my head position... so I will miss the perfect Atmos spec... but I do think that with the speakers all the way back that I will be within the range.



For the fronts I can get the full 45 degrees forward.


I am going to use 4 inexpensive Micca M-8C speakers. I have heard great things about them and the price is right. If they suck I am hoping that the 9 3/8" holes can be used for something better!


My room only has 14' of depth so its challenging to squeeze everything in.



JDM World: https://www.youtube.com/jdmworld
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