5.2.4 ceiling speaker placement advice - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 18 Old 05-08-2019, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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5.2.4 ceiling speaker placement advice

Hi,

Looking for advice on speaker placement for 4 ceiling speakers. Current setup is a 5.2, looking at going to a 5.2.4.


Current setup -
Player: HTPC/PS4
Audio:
Receiver - Denon AVR - x4400h
Speakers:
Center - Polk Audio CSi A4
Fronts - Polk Audio Monitor 75T
Surround: Polk Audio RC85i
Sub 1:Klipsch SW-112 12-inch Front-Firing Subwoofer 
Sub 2: Harman Kardon HKTS-15

Video:
1 - LG 65 OLED - OLED65E6P
2 - JVC DLA X55RB

Future addons:
4x Polk Audio MC80 8 1/2″ Round In-Ceiling Speakers


Theater Dimensions:
Dimensions: 10x16

Notes:

1.Two bulkheads are limiting my speaker placement.
2. Couldn't do the surrounds on the sides of the listening area, because one side is open to the workout area, the other side has a brick wall, and wife wouldn't let me place the speakers in the brick wall... so settled for placing the rears in the back.


Listening/usage - 80% Shows/Movies, 15% Sports, 5% music


What I was hoping to get help on was with the ceiling speaker placement - should I go closer to he seating area with a pair, and two in the middle? Or Place all 4 in the center area? Or any other suggestions?

I've attached some diagrams/renders.

Any help is appreciated:
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post #2 of 18 Old 05-09-2019, 12:25 AM
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Is moving the sofa forward slightly not a doable thing? How big is your screen? I think if that was my area, I would move the sofa forward (though that all depends on how large your screen is and not getting too close to the image, at first I only read about the 65" E6), have the front overheads out in front of the sofa and the rear overheads just behind the sofa. If anything, I definitely wouldn't want the rear overheads out in front of me, rather them directly over me if all I could do. I'm no theater designer so my words mean a whole lot of nothing.
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HT: (7.4.4) - Yamaha CX-A5200 - Yamaha MX-A5200 - (6) Klipsch RP-250F (front, side, rear) - Klipsch RP-504C (center) - (4) SVS Prime Elevation (front/rear Atmos) - (4) Klipsch R110SW (front/rear left/right subs) - LG OLED 77C8P - Oppo UDP-203
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post #3 of 18 Old 05-09-2019, 06:41 AM
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I have no experience about atmos but if I were you I would have the surrounds on the stands or in wall (to have them in the ear level), and have 2 or 4 overhead speakers in the ceiling. My understanding is ceiling surrounds defeat the purpose of atmos.
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post #4 of 18 Old 05-09-2019, 07:12 AM
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Based on your layout, I would recommend you move your couch forward at least 2 or 3 feet. Then, you can mount your rear ceiling speakers behind your seating position and your front ceiling speakers in front of your position. If you are not able to move the couch forward, than your options would be either, to buy on ceiling speakers and mount up high on the wall-ceiling border and configure as rear height, then do matching on front wall-ceiling border as front height, or to go with a .2 atmos setup in a top middle configuration where the top speakers are aligned with your seating position (not in front of nor behind you, but aligned exactly to where you are sitting). Whichever direction you go, I would also recommend you align your atmos speakers with your front towers.


This is my atmos setup, which is a front height / rear height on-ceiling approach vs. in ceiling (on ceiling speakers are Focal Sibs).


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...p;d=1557138899


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...6&d=1557138969


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...p;d=1557138951


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...p;d=1557138942


Also, as to the rears. What you can do is buy wall mounts, then place bookshelf speakers on the wall mounts and pivot them in so that they are facing either toward each other or angled to the main listening position. The ideal side surround setup angle is between 90 and 110 degrees. Then, you can use those speakers you wall mounted as rear surrounds instead in a 7.1 type configuration.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...p;d=1557401597


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...p;d=1557401719

Last edited by m0j0; 05-09-2019 at 07:27 AM.
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post #5 of 18 Old 05-09-2019, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 555SD View Post
Is moving the sofa forward slightly not a doable thing? How big is your screen? I think if that was my area, I would move the sofa forward (though that all depends on how large your screen is and not getting too close to the image, at first I only read about the 65" E6), have the front overheads out in front of the sofa and the rear overheads just behind the sofa. If anything, I definitely wouldn't want the rear overheads out in front of me, rather them directly over me if all I could do. I'm no theater designer so my words mean a whole lot of nothing.
555SD - thanks for the suggestion, unfortunately I can't move the sofa up, (wife factor) and if I did, the chaise would come out too far.. We have four bean bags in the middle seating area, which I forgot to mention.

The 65 E6 is behind the Projector screen, which is about 98 inches.

From what it sounds like, when doing a 5.2.4 setup, you have to have at least two heights behind the main seating position and two in front?
I guess my best option is to have the two heights as close to the back wall as possible, and two heights in front (sort of in the middle of the room), and when watching movies with Atmos, jump on the bean bags..
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post #6 of 18 Old 05-09-2019, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddwz View Post
I have no experience about atmos but if I were you I would have the surrounds on the stands or in wall (to have them in the ear level), and have 2 or 4 overhead speakers in the ceiling. My understanding is ceiling surrounds defeat the purpose of atmos.
Hey toddwz - thanks for the suggestion,

I think this atmos journey is a rabbit hole I shouldn't have ventured down The in-wall surrounds are about ear level, the tweeters are adjustable so I've angled them to the seating position.

What I didn't understand was 'ceiling surrounds defeat the purpose of atmos'..

I might end up going with the suggestion to move the sofa about 2 feet up, and have the 2 heights behind me... now I'm thinking I can put the second subwoofer behind the sofa too.. is that too much? 2 surrounds, two heights and two subwoofers behind me?
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post #7 of 18 Old 05-09-2019, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
Based on your layout, I would recommend you move your couch forward at least 2 or 3 feet. Then, you can mount your rear ceiling speakers behind your seating position and your front ceiling speakers in front of your position. If you are not able to move the couch forward, than your options would be either, to buy on ceiling speakers and mount up high on the wall-ceiling border and configure as rear height, then do matching on front wall-ceiling border as front height, or to go with a .2 atmos setup in a top middle configuration where the top speakers are aligned with your seating position (not in front of nor behind you, but aligned exactly to where you are sitting). Whichever direction you go, I would also recommend you align your atmos speakers with your front towers.


This is my atmos setup, which is a front height / rear height on-ceiling approach vs. in ceiling (on ceiling speakers are Focal Sibs).


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...p;d=1557138899


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...6&d=1557138969


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...p;d=1557138951


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...p;d=1557138942


Also, as to the rears. What you can do is buy wall mounts, then place bookshelf speakers on the wall mounts and pivot them in so that they are facing either toward each other or angled to the main listening position. The ideal side surround setup angle is between 90 and 110 degrees. Then, you can use those speakers you wall mounted as rear surrounds instead in a 7.1 type configuration.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...p;d=1557401597


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...p;d=1557401719


Hey love the setup - especially the concession stands! I have to get those ..

Moving the sofa up is probably my best option, as I can set my second subwoofer up there too... but again, what's your opinion that if I did that, i'd have both subwoofers, two surrounds and two heights behind me?

Unfortunately based on the tv unit I have, I can't put the one subwoofer in the front.
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post #8 of 18 Old 05-09-2019, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilimajaro View Post
Hey love the setup - especially the concession stands! I have to get those ..

Moving the sofa up is probably my best option, as I can set my second subwoofer up there too... but again, what's your opinion that if I did that, i'd have both subwoofers, two surrounds and two heights behind me?

Unfortunately based on the tv unit I have, I can't put the one subwoofer in the front.
That is how I have mine and it works very well in my opinion. In fact, I have a sub behind each seat firing directly into the back and it gives a great near field bass effect. Just be sure when you run Audyssey that you get the microphone exactly where your ear height will be when you watch movies, so the front and rear speakers will be timed and level trimmed properly.
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post #9 of 18 Old 05-09-2019, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilimajaro View Post
Hey love the setup - especially the concession stands! I have to get those ..

Moving the sofa up is probably my best option, as I can set my second subwoofer up there too... but again, what's your opinion that if I did that, i'd have both subwoofers, two surrounds and two heights behind me?

Unfortunately based on the tv unit I have, I can't put the one subwoofer in the front.

I love my concessions stand too... maybe a little too much! I also added a popcorn machine to round out the look!


Here's my setup at night, including the subs behind my seating.
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post #10 of 18 Old 05-09-2019, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
That is how I have mine and it works very well in my opinion. In fact, I have a sub behind each seat firing directly into the back and it gives a great near field bass effect. Just be sure when you run Audyssey that you get the microphone exactly where your ear height will be when you watch movies, so the front and rear speakers will be timed and level trimmed properly.

Hey m0J0 - thanks for the tips..


Man, I can't get enough of those concessions, looks gorgeous, the blue lights and the special nook you got.mmmmm..... I know myself though, no discipline.. If I had that I'd weigh 200lbs more than I am now!

What would your opinion be on the sub woofers than - my issue with the subs
1. the second sub is way off outside of the theater room, running on a wireless sub connector by rocket fish.
2. The first sub is wired, behind the sofa.

If I moved the second sub behind the sofa, I could split the cable to two subs? Or am I better off staying with one wired, and one wireless?

I will take your advice though on the microphone placement.

Thanks again,

BTW - I did move the couch up a foot and a half, sounds better, although I can't do a full test as it's night time here, might wake up the neighbors.

Now I hope I can fish the wires to the receiver for the ceilings speakers - I'll post back once done.
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post #11 of 18 Old 05-10-2019, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilimajaro View Post
Hey m0J0 - thanks for the tips..


Man, I can't get enough of those concessions, looks gorgeous, the blue lights and the special nook you got.mmmmm..... I know myself though, no discipline.. If I had that I'd weigh 200lbs more than I am now!

What would your opinion be on the sub woofers than - my issue with the subs
1. the second sub is way off outside of the theater room, running on a wireless sub connector by rocket fish.
2. The first sub is wired, behind the sofa.

If I moved the second sub behind the sofa, I could split the cable to two subs? Or am I better off staying with one wired, and one wireless?

I will take your advice though on the microphone placement.

Thanks again,

BTW - I did move the couch up a foot and a half, sounds better, although I can't do a full test as it's night time here, might wake up the neighbors.

Now I hope I can fish the wires to the receiver for the ceilings speakers - I'll post back once done.

If your receiver only has one sub out then yes, you could split that out to both subs without issue, and yes, in that case, it would be best to have the subs both behind the couch. When running with two subs, you need to take the time to level match them first so that each is calibrated to the same db level.
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post #12 of 18 Old 05-10-2019, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilimajaro View Post
Hey toddwz - thanks for the suggestion,

I think this atmos journey is a rabbit hole I shouldn't have ventured down The in-wall surrounds are about ear level, the tweeters are adjustable so I've angled them to the seating position.

What I didn't understand was 'ceiling surrounds defeat the purpose of atmos'..

I might end up going with the suggestion to move the sofa about 2 feet up, and have the 2 heights behind me... now I'm thinking I can put the second subwoofer behind the sofa too.. is that too much? 2 surrounds, two heights and two subwoofers behind me?
I see. I probably missed that part. Please ignore that 'ceiling surrounds defeat the purpose of atmos'. If the surrounds are angled probably it's OK. My sub is behind me and I do feel the punch from Cybertron. Good for me. (I have a very budget level sub now.)
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post #13 of 18 Old 05-10-2019, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
If your receiver only has one sub out then yes, you could split that out to both subs without issue, and yes, in that case, it would be best to have the subs both behind the couch. When running with two subs, you need to take the time to level match them first so that each is calibrated to the same db level.

Hey m0j0 - my receiver has two sub outs - but only one cable is running to behind the sofa, I have three options now that I've moved my sofa up two feet -
1. Place the second sub behind the sofa, using the wireless connection with rocketfish connector
2. Place the second sub behind the sofa, using a splitter to the cable that's installed, therefore only utilizing one sub out on the receiver
3. Leave other sub where it is.

I'll try all three once the 4 ceiling speakers are up and post back.

But moving the sofa up two feed was a godsend - thanks for the tips everyone - I had to explain to the wife why I moved it up - told her the professionals said it was a 'must'.. haha.. I'll see how long she goes without protesting.
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post #14 of 18 Old 05-11-2019, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilimajaro View Post
Hey m0j0 - my receiver has two sub outs - but only one cable is running to behind the sofa, I have three options now that I've moved my sofa up two feet -
1. Place the second sub behind the sofa, using the wireless connection with rocketfish connector
2. Place the second sub behind the sofa, using a splitter to the cable that's installed, therefore only utilizing one sub out on the receiver
3. Leave other sub where it is.

I'll try all three once the 4 ceiling speakers are up and post back.

But moving the sofa up two feed was a godsend - thanks for the tips everyone - I had to explain to the wife why I moved it up - told her the professionals said it was a 'must'.. haha.. I'll see how long she goes without protesting.

I would either run another cable and use the seperate sub out, or if you cannot, go with option 2 with the splitter. Good luck and enjoy your setup!
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post #15 of 18 Old 05-11-2019, 06:03 AM
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I have buttkickers in my sofa that were added on. This was an amazing addition for action movies. It is very similar to 4DX if you've ever experienced that in your local theater.
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post #16 of 18 Old 05-11-2019, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by toddwz View Post
I see. I probably missed that part. Please ignore that 'ceiling surrounds defeat the purpose of atmos'. If the surrounds are angled probably it's OK. My sub is behind me and I do feel the punch from Cybertron. Good for me. (I have a very budget level sub now.)

Hey toddwz - I have a new problem. I couldn't install the second set of ceiling speakers unfortunately. The Beams are interfering with my plans.. damn structural support ..

First set of Polk Audio MC80 were installed no problem... they are in the middle of the room. The second set, towards the back, I couldn't get in, we couldn't find any clearing without taking out the entire ceiling.

So I'm thinking of getting a pair of Klipsch R14M for the back heights, and angling them down..

Now the questions -
1. is it ok to have four heights, with two sets of different makes, two polk audio MC80 shooting strait down (middle of the room), and a second pair of Klipsch R14M angled (behind seating area)?
2. Or should I make a box, which is off ceiling height and house the second pair of polk audio MC80's in them?

Thanks again any tips/help appreciated.

For reference, see picture.
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post #17 of 18 Old 05-13-2019, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilimajaro View Post
Hey toddwz - I have a new problem. I couldn't install the second set of ceiling speakers unfortunately. The Beams are interfering with my plans.. damn structural support ..

First set of Polk Audio MC80 were installed no problem... they are in the middle of the room. The second set, towards the back, I couldn't get in, we couldn't find any clearing without taking out the entire ceiling.

So I'm thinking of getting a pair of Klipsch R14M for the back heights, and angling them down..

Now the questions -
1. is it ok to have four heights, with two sets of different makes, two polk audio MC80 shooting strait down (middle of the room), and a second pair of Klipsch R14M angled (behind seating area)?
2. Or should I make a box, which is off ceiling height and house the second pair of polk audio MC80's in them?

Thanks again any tips/help appreciated.

For reference, see picture.
It's a good question, and honestly I have no idea. From what I read here, atmos is used like 10% during a movie so they are less important than LCR. But if you could match 4 of them, I think it's a better idea. A even better advice is to listen to other members who have more experience. And no matter which choice you make, enjoy the movie and never look back.
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post #18 of 18 Old 05-15-2019, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddwz View Post
It's a good question, and honestly I have no idea. From what I read here, atmos is used like 10% during a movie so they are less important than LCR. But if you could match 4 of them, I think it's a better idea. A even better advice is to listen to other members who have more experience. And no matter which choice you make, enjoy the movie and never look back.

Update -
with sheer will power I was able to find a placement for the second set of speakers as per suggestions ( the gap I needed was 9 inches, I found 9.5 inches buy poking holes all through out the ceiling, I also moved the couch up about a foot and a half.. and did the audessy calibration. Must say it does sound pretty good with the Atmos and DTS-X sample files found here (https://thedigitaltheater.com/dts-trailers/).

Worth the effort? Not sure yet, I'll post back in a few days after I've had some time to play with it, watch some movies/shows/games.


I picked up the shield to see if I can leverage that for some content.

Everyone - Thanks for all the help/tips/pointers... I did listen and applied the advice.

Much appreciated.
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