5.1 to 5.1.2 Atmos upgrade - Sofa stuck on back corner wall - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 23 Old 08-08-2019, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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5.1 to 5.1.2 Atmos upgrade - Sofa stuck on back corner wall

I'm considering upgrading from my current 5.1 to Atmos 5.1.2.

I upgraded to 4k TV last year and added an Xbox One X. Usage is about 80% Movies/Netflix and 20% games. My current receiver doesn't do 4k so I connect Xbox to TV and send audio passthrough back to the receiver from the TV. ​

All this works well but I've seen some good deals on newer receivers, which is making me consider the upgrade and whether it's worth it. With the new receivers giving Atmos options too it's definitely an enticing option.​

When we reno'd the basement 10 years ago I created the set-up below. I also placed wires in the ceiling, on the advice that I'd have the option to upgrade to 7.1 at some point. Now with Atmos those speaker wires should allow me to do 5.1.2 reasonably easily.​

My 5.1 setup​
LG B7 TV​
Marantz SR6005 HT receiver​
Front Left, Right & Center speakers - in-wall - Def Tech UIW75​
Rear - Axiom QS8​
Def Tech Pro Sub 1000

My MLP is approx 3ft from the floor, 10ft from the TV and problematically 1ft from the back wall. I've a fairly constrained space as you can perhaps see in the pic, the wall the TV is on stops just past the speakers.

The main "problem" I believe I have is my couch is on the rear wall in a corner so I have limited options for the rear speakers. I currently have them at 70" height, so approx 25" higher then my MLP. I think when I set-up originally I got some advice to place them higher due to the physical limitations. Certainly having the rear-left at ear level would have someone bumping their head on the speaker.​

If I upgrade - should I adjust my rear speakers and if so how? Any other suggestions as to ensure I get the best out of what I have? Is it worth upgrading my receiver? Deal in Canada on the Denon AXRX3500H currently has me interested.
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post #2 of 23 Old 08-08-2019, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Stevenson View Post
MLP is approx 3ft from the floor, ... I have limited options for the rear speakers. I currently have them at 70" height, so approx 25" higher then my MLP.
MLP is 36" or 45" (70-25) from the floor? In any case, I would move the surround speakers down so that they are about a foot above seated ear height.

For 2 height speakers mounted in/on the ceiling, split the gap between your front speakers and surround speakers. For 4 height speakers, put one pair near the back wall and the other pair closer to the front wall. Spread each pair roughly the width of your front L/R speakers.

2 heights will let you hear left vs right movement overhead. 4 heights will let you hear left vs right AND front vs back movement above you. Well worth it IF you can stretch the budget.

Sanjay
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post #3 of 23 Old 08-08-2019, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Stevenson View Post
I'm considering upgrading from my current 5.1 to Atmos 5.1.2.

I upgraded to 4k TV last year and added an Xbox One X. Usage is about 80% Movies/Netflix and 20% games. My current receiver doesn't do 4k so I connect Xbox to TV and send audio passthrough back to the receiver from the TV. ​

All this works well but I've seen some good deals on newer receivers, which is making me consider the upgrade and whether it's worth it. With the new receivers giving Atmos options too it's definitely an enticing option.​

When we reno'd the basement 10 years ago I created the set-up below. I also placed wires in the ceiling, on the advice that I'd have the option to upgrade to 7.1 at some point. Now with Atmos those speaker wires should allow me to do 5.1.2 reasonably easily.​

My 5.1 setup​
LG B7 TV​
Marantz SR6005 HT receiver​
Front Left, Right & Center speakers - in-wall - Def Tech UIW75​
Rear - Axiom QS8​
Def Tech Pro Sub 1000

My MLP is approx 3ft from the floor, 10ft from the TV and problematically 1ft from the back wall. I've a fairly constrained space as you can perhaps see in the pic, the wall the TV is on stops just past the speakers.

The main "problem" I believe I have is my couch is on the rear wall in a corner so I have limited options for the rear speakers. I currently have them at 70" height, so approx 25" higher then my MLP. I think when I set-up originally I got some advice to place them higher due to the physical limitations. Certainly having the rear-left at ear level would have someone bumping their head on the speaker.​

If I upgrade - should I adjust my rear speakers and if so how? Any other suggestions as to ensure I get the best out of what I have? Is it worth upgrading my receiver? Deal in Canada on the Denon AXRX3500H currently has me interested.
How much space do you have on the right side of your couch? Could you slide the couch to the right about 1 foot? If so, you could potentially setup side surrounds on stands at ear height facing in to the MLP. That would then give you enough room between the base layer and the height layer so you could mount atmos speakers. Also, if you are going to upgrade your AVR, go with a 9 channel like the Denon 4400/4500 so you can do 4 channel atmos, as it is far better than just 2 channel.
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post #4 of 23 Old 08-08-2019, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
MLP is 36" or 45" (70-25) from the floor? In any case, I would move the surround speakers down so that they are about a foot above seated ear height.

For 2 height speakers mounted in/on the ceiling, split the gap between your front speakers and surround speakers. For 4 height speakers, put one pair near the back wall and the other pair closer to the front wall. Spread each pair roughly the width of your front L/R speakers.

2 heights will let you hear left vs right movement overhead. 4 heights will let you hear left vs right AND front vs back movement above you. Well worth it IF you can stretch the budget.
Yes sorry bad math on listening height - it's a low couch so when nice and relaxed I'm only 3ft off the ground, ignore the 25" height distance. (don't see a way to edit OP to update)

Budget wise the switch to 5.1.4 seems to be the mainly down to the receiver as I'd been looking at 7.2 receivers so far rather than 9.2. That being said currently the Onkyo TX-RZ830 is available in Canada for similar price to the Denon 3500. Will look into that.

I also already have 2 wires in the ceiling, making 2 Atmos ceiling nice and "easy," adding the remaining wires will require some more work. I could use the existing wires and may have some luck upgrading to 4 in the ceiling without too much stress.

Going to have to make some mess to move the 2 rears down approx 2ft to get them 1ft over ear height.
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post #5 of 23 Old 08-08-2019, 06:09 PM
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You could go with front heights for the front atmos and not have to go in ceiling with the wires.
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post #6 of 23 Old 08-08-2019, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
How much space do you have on the right side of your couch? Could you slide the couch to the right about 1 foot? If so, you could potentially setup side surrounds on stands at ear height facing in to the MLP. That would then give you enough room between the base layer and the height layer so you could mount atmos speakers. Also, if you are going to upgrade your AVR, go with a 9 channel like the Denon 4400/4500 so you can do 4 channel atmos, as it is far better than just 2 channel.
There is room to move the couch right, though I'm not sure how the wife would feel about that!

Are you suggesting 2 side speakers as well as the 2 rear on the wall, or to move the 2 rear speakers down and mount onto stands to the side? I think the latter.

I could do this and still leave the 2 rear speakers on the back wall but have them at ear height if the back left has the 1ft space where the sofa then wouldn't be. As I'm only 1ft off the back wall they will be pretty much at the side. Might be tricky to route the wire from the rear right as it would need to move 1 stud space over and that wall has insulation.

I may try shifting the sofa to try as I'm concerned at how the front and viewing etc is affected with the 1ft move. Everything is nice and squared to the middle of the sofa as the MLP currently.
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post #7 of 23 Old 08-08-2019, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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You could go with front heights for the front atmos and not have to go in ceiling with the wires.
The front wall is nice and easy to access thanks to large in-wall speaker holes and no insulation (indoor wall) Putting front heights in would be fairly easy and a good point.

I can pull out the front speakers and investigate how easy it would be to route 2 more wires up into the ceiling. Will have some access with pot lights I can pop out too.
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post #8 of 23 Old 08-08-2019, 07:12 PM
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There is room to move the couch right, though I'm not sure how the wife would feel about that!

Are you suggesting 2 side speakers as well as the 2 rear on the wall, or to move the 2 rear speakers down and mount onto stands to the side? I think the latter.

I could do this and still leave the 2 rear speakers on the back wall but have them at ear height if the back left has the 1ft space where the sofa then wouldn't be. As I'm only 1ft off the back wall they will be pretty much at the side. Might be tricky to route the wire from the rear right as it would need to move 1 stud space over and that wall has insulation.

I may try shifting the sofa to try as I'm concerned at how the front and viewing etc is affected with the 1ft move. Everything is nice and squared to the middle of the sofa as the MLP currently.
Shifting the sofa would seem to give the most options. I think having the side surrounds pointing in toward the mlp would give the best sound, but if not possible, getting them outside the couch and down closer to ear level would do. Not sure if those speakers you have could be mounted on stands, but if not perhaps you could get some small bookshelf speakers.
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post #9 of 23 Old 08-08-2019, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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How much space do you have on the right side of your couch? Could you slide the couch to the right about 1 foot? If so, you could potentially setup side surrounds on stands at ear height facing in to the MLP. That would then give you enough room between the base layer and the height layer so you could mount atmos speakers. Also, if you are going to upgrade your AVR, go with a 9 channel like the Denon 4400/4500 so you can do 4 channel atmos, as it is far better than just 2 channel.
Slid my couch 1 foot over. The main issue is the wall my TV is on is only ~6ft and speakers and TV are fixed. The 1 foot move, while not much means my right is now more my center on a chunk of the couch. In the corner, it's not perfect but feels more symmetrical.

I'll leave it for a bit and test. I'll probably have to stick with the corner couch and place the rears 1ft above rather than the current 3ft.
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post #10 of 23 Old 08-08-2019, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Did some tweaking and have the 2 on the side - see temporary set-up to test and see what my wife thinks.

It's hard to show the angle that this leaves the TV and front speakers with respect to where the sofa is now.

Anyway - will try it while I shop around for 9.2 receivers and ceiling speakers.
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post #11 of 23 Old 08-09-2019, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Stevenson View Post
Did some tweaking and have the 2 on the side - see temporary set-up to test and see what my wife thinks.

It's hard to show the angle that this leaves the TV and front speakers with respect to where the sofa is now.

Anyway - will try it while I shop around for 9.2 receivers and ceiling speakers.

That looks like it could work to me. What you really need to do is get a projector and an acoustically transparent screen and take up that whole front wall with a screen/picture.


Something like this 84" diag screen in acoustic pro material that you could pull down over your TV and speakers when you want to watch a movie.


https://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens.../dp/B000MX8Z16

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That looks like it could work to me. What you really need to do is get a projector and an acoustically transparent screen and take up that whole front wall with a screen/picture.


Something like this 84" diag screen in acoustic pro material that you could pull down over your TV and speakers when you want to watch a movie.


https://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens.../dp/B000MX8Z16
Noooo - don't enable!!

Watched some Dark Knight last night, need to tweak the settings a little I think but enjoyed the more immersive set-up so far. Now to keep investigating deals on receivers.
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post #13 of 23 Old 08-09-2019, 07:50 AM
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Going to have to make some mess to move the 2 rears down approx 2ft to get them 1ft over ear height.
Sure, but it will help give you better separation between sounds around you versus sounds above you, which is the main point of Atmos.

Sanjay
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post #14 of 23 Old 08-09-2019, 08:12 AM
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Noooo - don't enable!!

Watched some Dark Knight last night, need to tweak the settings a little I think but enjoyed the more immersive set-up so far. Now to keep investigating deals on receivers.

Unfortunately, coming onto this site will ensure you spend money and upgrade your setup in every way possible...
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post #15 of 23 Old 08-12-2019, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Been playing with and enjoying my 5.1 over the weekend. Perhaps due to paying more attention, or just more volume, it's been fun to re-watch and listen to a few movies over the last few days.

Today the Marantz SR6013 is on sale for $999 in Canada, best price it's been so think I may be jumping on to get that. Other options are SR7013 ($1300) and Denon 4500 ($1500) both end up pushing the budget further than I had planned, though I can get a B-stock 4500 for $999. Since I own a SR6005, I like the idea of the '8' better SR6013!

I also did some more investigation to get an idea of what sort of work is needed to get to 5.1.4. I have wires routed to the X in the attached pictured which should work ok for the rear ceiling speakers. Getting the wires to the ideal position A though will require more work as I've no easy route to those using existing wiring. I can instead (as suggested above) put in 2 front heights at the B marked position with less effort. How big a difference is it to get the front Atmos to A vs B? Is it worth the "mess" and effort?
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post #16 of 23 Old 08-12-2019, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Stevenson View Post
Been playing with and enjoying my 5.1 over the weekend. Perhaps due to paying more attention, or just more volume, it's been fun to re-watch and listen to a few movies over the last few days.

Today the Marantz SR6013 is on sale for $999 in Canada, best price it's been so think I may be jumping on to get that. Other options are SR7013 ($1300) and Denon 4500 ($1500) both end up pushing the budget further than I had planned, though I can get a B-stock 4500 for $999. Since I own a SR6005, I like the idea of the '8' better SR6013!

I also did some more investigation to get an idea of what sort of work is needed to get to 5.1.4. I have wires routed to the X in the attached pictured which should work ok for the rear ceiling speakers. Getting the wires to the ideal position A though will require more work as I've no easy route to those using existing wiring. I can instead (as suggested above) put in 2 front heights at the B marked position with less effort. How big a difference is it to get the front Atmos to A vs B? Is it worth the "mess" and effort?
I would go with front heights (option b). Also, for your rear atmos, I would do them in a rear height configuration as well, right at the border of the ceiling and rear wall if possible. That way they are behind the seating position to get the best affect.
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post #17 of 23 Old 08-13-2019, 05:49 PM
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i hate to say this, but i think you're going to be underwhelmed

it's always fun to add some new gear, and i am actually a fan of atmos in theory. but beyond some 30sec demos, i can't say that atmos has added anything to the enjoyment of movies for me. I'm limited right now to 7ch, and i will 100% choose 7.1 over 5.1.2 every day. I've been eyeing up 'affordable' receivers that would allow me to run the full 7.1.4(already have the speakers installed) but it seems like there is ALWAYS a better way to spend a thousand bux, haha.

bottom line, if you love the hobby, and enjoy the journey, continue and enjoy yourself. That's what will make this worthwhile. If, on the other hand, you are wanting a fair performance return on the effort and money spent, i don't think this is the way to go. FWIW, the best i've seen from marantz was the 6012 for $829(b-stock from gibby's), the cheapest possible 11ch(with preouts) i've seen has been around $630 (now out of stock onkyo rz830.

really odd question, you don't happen to live in calgary, originally from winnipeg? Because you have the same name as my cousin, haha

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
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post #18 of 23 Old 08-14-2019, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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i hate to say this, but i think you're going to be underwhelmed

it's always fun to add some new gear, and i am actually a fan of atmos in theory. but beyond some 30sec demos, i can't say that atmos has added anything to the enjoyment of movies for me. I'm limited right now to 7ch, and i will 100% choose 7.1 over 5.1.2 every day. I've been eyeing up 'affordable' receivers that would allow me to run the full 7.1.4(already have the speakers installed) but it seems like there is ALWAYS a better way to spend a thousand bux, haha.

bottom line, if you love the hobby, and enjoy the journey, continue and enjoy yourself. That's what will make this worthwhile. If, on the other hand, you are wanting a fair performance return on the effort and money spent, i don't think this is the way to go. FWIW, the best i've seen from marantz was the 6012 for $829(b-stock from gibby's), the cheapest possible 11ch(with preouts) i've seen has been around $630 (now out of stock onkyo rz830.

really odd question, you don't happen to live in calgary, originally from winnipeg? Because you have the same name as my cousin, haha
Well - I don't believe I started this thread looking for sensible and rational advice not too spend money!!

Appreciate the feedback but had the budget and bug to upgrade to Atmos, and sometimes it's hard to ignore. When I switched to 4k last year with the LG TV and Xbox One X was always looking out for the 4k receiver to complete the upgrade. This thread pushed me to the 9.2 ones to allow for 5.1.4 (I'm not yet biting on the 2nd sub)

I picked up the SR6013 from Bestbuy ($1k CAD) last night, waiting for the first of the ceiling speakers to arrive while I figure out what to get for the front.

And I'm not from Winnipeg so wrong guy - not that I need massive amounts of anonymity, but not a fan that my name is on this account and appears to be no way to change it.
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post #19 of 23 Old 08-14-2019, 10:35 AM
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well, I didn't say you shouldn't spend money, haha.
There always something fun to upgrade

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post #20 of 23 Old 08-16-2019, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Been reading through the Dolby documents, realized I'm basically making a 5.1.4 using the 7.1.6 mounted/overhead set-up but cutting off the back 4 speakers. See pic. From what I can tell my SR6013 can be set-up with that speaker selection.

The 2 ceiling speakers are en-route and I'm now trying to decide on the front height speakers. I can get Def Tech DI 6.5s in-walls that would match my front LCR speakers and look pretty clean, they have an aimable tweeter so I think will work well. Alternatively I could get on-wall style for a bit more control on the direction, but losing the clean install look, not sure which ones though if I was to start shopping on-wall, the price seems to jump from the in-walls I'm considering. I'm leaning towards the former option.

Also my reading highlighted that my rear QS8s, which are bi-pole type, aren't ideal in Atmos where direction is needed. Then went off on a reading spree to get others thoughts on using QS8s in Atmos and the best few comments I found did seem to still appreciate the sound. For now and for budget reasons I'll stick with mine, though mounted on the rear wall, and then review once I get everything else set-up and lived with for a while.
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post #21 of 23 Old 08-17-2019, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Stevenson View Post
Did some tweaking and have the 2 on the side - see temporary set-up to test and see what my wife thinks.

It's hard to show the angle that this leaves the TV and front speakers with respect to where the sofa is now.

Anyway - will try it while I shop around for 9.2 receivers and ceiling speakers.
I have similar layout obstacles. This is how I laid out my room. Currently a 7.2.4. The right surround is under the stairs which creates another challenge however after I did the calibration it does sound really good.... to me and my family anyway. You can see in the picture I am installing the ATMOS in ceiling speakers.
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post #22 of 23 Old 08-18-2019, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Stevenson View Post
Been reading through the Dolby documents, realized I'm basically making a 5.1.4 using the 7.1.6 mounted/overhead set-up but cutting off the back 4 speakers. See pic. From what I can tell my SR6013 can be set-up with that speaker selection.

The 2 ceiling speakers are en-route and I'm now trying to decide on the front height speakers. I can get Def Tech DI 6.5s in-walls that would match my front LCR speakers and look pretty clean, they have an aimable tweeter so I think will work well. Alternatively I could get on-wall style for a bit more control on the direction, but losing the clean install look, not sure which ones though if I was to start shopping on-wall, the price seems to jump from the in-walls I'm considering. I'm leaning towards the former option.

Also my reading highlighted that my rear QS8s, which are bi-pole type, aren't ideal in Atmos where direction is needed. Then went off on a reading spree to get others thoughts on using QS8s in Atmos and the best few comments I found did seem to still appreciate the sound. For now and for budget reasons I'll stick with mine, though mounted on the rear wall, and then review once I get everything else set-up and lived with for a while.
i think you'll be ok with the bipoles as surround speakers. i probably wouldn't use them for overhead channels, but in your case, i don't think replacing them would be worth it. to be honest, part of me thinks it might actually help fill the 'gap' behind you. that was my biggest complaint with 5.1.2, there was an obvious hole in the soundfield behind me. all my speakers are directional

my personal thought would also be to stick with the cleaner in-wall for height speakers. i don't know how well your LCR speakers the in-wall set up, those are the only speakers in my theater that i was not happy using in-walls for. I found the opposite to be true for price. it was way easier to find a good sounding bookshelf speaker than in-walls that could handle what i expected from them. anyway, point is, if you're good with the performance of your LCR then there's absolutely no reason to think you wouldn't be happy with in-walls for the height channels too.
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Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1130K, 7.1/5.1.2 audio
Sources: HTPC, PS3, XBOX360, Wii
Control: Harmony One
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post #23 of 23 Old 08-20-2019, 09:05 AM
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Just popping into this thread, as I'm looking for advice on a similar setup. No advice from me, as I don't know what I'm talking about. Just wanted to say that I bet you'll be happy with your SR6013. I got one through a friend who gave me his employee discount, and it sounds really great, even in a less-than-ideal room. Running Audyssey, doing some manual tweaking, etc., and I eventually prefer it to my old Integra that I loved. The remote isn't great, but I've gotten used to it. Plus, should you ever be in a situation where you want to add rear surrounds, you can do it with this receiver by adding a 2-channel amp. Anyhoo, enjoy!
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