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post #1 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey, did you guys know that occasionally a BD actually turns out to be good, and the studios aren't out to get us? Shocking, I know!

Justice League turned up today and I watched the whole of the first disc. I really didn't have any expectations for the PQ going in but I was really surprised at how great it looked. Looks very good, and not just sharper lines, but the backgrounds looking nice and detailed as well. Once we get up to this resolution though the nitpicking starts to be production based. You start to see how some lines are just a little too thin or not quite finished. And picking out things like this;



...is fun

As for the audio, it's "only" DD5.1 and I know we're going to have the inevitable "lossless!!11" posts, but honestly I don't think it would have benfitted anyway. It's a really, really front heavy mix, the only thing going on with the rears (if anything at all) is some score/fx bleeds. Would it be nice to have the option? Sure. But it's not a deal breaker (in this case...).

Anyway, here are some random pics from the first disc for those interested.




Abbreviated specs for the first disc

Quote:


Disc Title: JUSTICE_LEAGUE_S1_D1_NA
Disc Size: 23,843,384,052 bytes
Protection: AACS
BD-Java: No
Playlist Count: 1
Total Length: 3:16:15
Total Size: 23,801,468,928
Total Bitrate: 16.17
Video: VC-1 / 14.68Mbps / 1080p / 23.976fps / 16:9 / Advanced Profile 3
Audio: English / DD AC3 5.1 / 640Kbps
Subtitle: English / 26.992Kbps
Audio: English / DD AC3 2.0 / 192Kbps
Subtitle: English / 0.001Kbps

I really hope the other seasons will follow.
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post #2 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by House View Post

Hey, did you guys know that occasionally a BD actually turns out to be good, and the studios aren't out to get us? Shocking, I know!

As for the audio, it's "only" DD5.1 and I know we're going to have the inevitable "lossless!!11" posts, but honestly I don't think it would have benfitted anyway. It's a really, really front heavy mix, the only thing going on with the rears (if anything at all) is some score/fx bleeds. Would it be nice to have the option? Sure. But it's not a deal breaker (in this case...).

Anyway, here are some random pics from the first disc for those interested.

I really hope the other seasons will follow.

The TrueHD on Frontier sounds pretty good. But the DD5.1 might be good enough hear. Even the 2ch stuff sounded ok.

I'm waiting for the whole series too, that's why I pre-ordered as soon as I could.

Thanks for posting the specs and screens. Can't wait to get mine.

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post #3 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 01:56 PM
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I also received this one (along with New Frontier) but haven't had a chance to watch them yet. The screenshots sure do look vivid, so I'm looking forward to the PQ upgrade. I think the sound will probably suffice as well, but it's just hard to look back after watching the Ultimate Avengers BD in 7.1 PCM.

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post #4 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by House View Post

Hey, did you guys know that occasionally a BD actually turns out to be good, and the studios aren't out to get us? Shocking, I know!

Funny that you would say that about this release.

This could have been a good BD if they had used the creator-preferred widescreen versions. As it is, it's a sad lost opportunity.
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post #5 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Reading up on it, it seems it is a much debated situation; having watched the first disc (and half way through the second), 1.33 seems preferrable. Many shots would simply look goofy in widescreen no matter how much you fiddled with the positioning of the matting/cropping. I know the creator's say they prefer it that way but I'm not buying it having watched through the episodes..

If you really want to you could do it yourself with your TV set...
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post #6 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by House View Post

Reading up on it, it seems it is a much debated situation; having watched the first disc (and half way through the second), 1.33 seems preferrable. Many shots would simply look goofy in widescreen no matter how much you fiddled with the positioning of the matting/cropping. I know the creator's say they prefer it that way but I'm not buying it having watched through the episodes..

One only needs to look at the empty areas above the characters' heads in the majority of shots (including many of your caps) to see that it was designed to be matted.

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If you really want to you could do it yourself with your TV set...

Unfortunately no, since my TV has no zoom function when receiving HD signals.

To borrow your term, we've been Warner'd yet again.
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post #7 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason One View Post

One only needs to look at the empty areas above the characters' heads in the majority of shots (including many of your caps) to see that it was designed to be matted.

True, but there are many others where there is no consideration for widescreen and it would look awkward.

Quote:


To borrow your term, we've been Warner'd yet again.

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post #8 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 03:27 PM
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Hey guys,
I'm really not into this modern stuff; however I was raised on cartoons & still find them fun.
So, if you were only getting one, which one of the three current animation releases on Blu would you chose?
(so far, sounds [pi] like "TUA" wins for best sound!)

Great thread OP, well done! You've wet my appetite for this kind of fare.
Thanks too all.

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post #9 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by House View Post

True, but there are many others where there is no consideration for widescreen and it would look awkward.

I disagree. The show's producers are on record as having composed the episodes for matted widescreen framing, and I find that the shots which look better in widescreen vastly outnumber the few troublesome ones.

In fact, I watched the season one DVD using the zoom mode of my Oppo player, and it worked great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by House View Post


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post #10 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 06:12 PM
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I was wondering from lookin at the pics is the blu-ray version full screen or widescreen? I thought on the specs it has widescreen?
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post #11 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 06:19 PM
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To the OP, is there any noticeable edge enhancement applied to the transfer? I already have this pre-ordered but the last thing very sharp animation needs is edge halos messing up the picture. I plan to write up a review of this title when I get it. I have very good knowledge of how the dvds look upconverted to 1080P so it will be an interesting comparison.

Blu-ray Picture Quality Tiers (updated through July 13, 2017)
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post #12 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 06:44 PM
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Aw. I'm kinda disappointed. I was really hoping for the widescreen presentation.
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post #13 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchamblissII View Post

I was wondering from lookin at the pics is the blu-ray version full screen or widescreen? I thought on the specs it has widescreen?

No, the OAR of S1 of JL is 4:3. If we get S2 and onward those should be widescreen.

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post #14 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 07:00 PM
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Not my cup of tea. In my opinion it looks pretty bad, not enough detail to sustain that kind of sharpness and you can see the aliasing from the digital line-art, but that's all related to the original animation production and not the Blu-ray.

If you look closely, many edges seem to have a one or two pixel halo to them, but at least some of it looks colour-related so maybe it's also due to the way it was produced. Fans should be pleased though.
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post #15 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 07:19 PM
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Unfortunately the art is no better or worse than most of the other Sat morning fare, JL being another Bruce Timm series to farm out their animation to Korean studios and they get it back and handle the post-processing here in the US. Nothing new there. It looks pretty good compared to the more recent WB series.

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post #16 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 07:57 PM
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I love the two JL seasons (though they pale in comparison to the great Batman TAS...) and I am stoked for this release. The screens look very promising. It would've been an awesome bonus if Warner would've included lossless audio, but the sound mix truly wouldn't have benefited much; I own the DVD release. Amazon can't ship my pre-order soon enough...
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post #17 of 85 Old 08-12-2008, 10:15 PM
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Shoot.

Mark me down as someone who would have gladly purchased this if it was in widescreen. Which is the same conclusion I reached when they released the DVD.

This situation is no different than live action productions that are filmed full frame and intended to be masked in the theaters. People get hung up because it's animation, but the creator's intent was clearly for widescreen. It was even shown in widescreen on Cartoon Network (late at night after the full frame showings) and it looked great.

I suspect Warner thinks they are doing us a favor by preserving the "OAR" but in this case it's just incorrect. It IS the original FILMED aspect ratio but not the creator preferred one.

Sigh.

I hope Warner doesn't use the purchases of this botched set to gauge interest in the DCAU cartoons on Blu-ray...
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post #18 of 85 Old 08-13-2008, 02:38 PM
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I put together some comparisons. The first image shows the producers' intended widescreen framing. The second image shows what we're getting on the BD.













































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post #19 of 85 Old 08-13-2008, 04:27 PM
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Most of those shots look like they were protected for (and look better in) 16:9. All that's cut off is dead space or excessive amounts of leg.
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post #20 of 85 Old 08-13-2008, 05:56 PM
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so did u take that from the regular dvd version and compared it to blu-ray? And just put the regular dvd version in zoom mode on the tv?
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post #21 of 85 Old 08-13-2008, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paku View Post

Most of those shots look like they were protected for (and look better in) 16:9. All that's cut off is dead space or excessive amounts of leg.

That's exactly right. They protected the entire first season for 16:9, specifically intending it to be matted for widescreen HDTVs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchamblissII View Post

so did u take that from the regular dvd version and compared it to blu-ray? And just put the regular dvd version in zoom mode on the tv?

If you're asking about my comparison images, I made them in Photoshop, starting from screencaps of the "fullscreen" season one DVDs. The images are only meant to illustrate the aspect ratio differences between how the BDs should have been, and the unfortunate reality.

Look at House's original post for actual BD caps.
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post #22 of 85 Old 08-13-2008, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason One View Post

That's exactly right. They protected the entire first season for 16:9, specifically intending it to be matted for widescreen HDTVs.


If you're asking about my comparison images, I made them in Photoshop, starting from screencaps of the "fullscreen" season one DVDs. The images are only meant to illustrate the aspect ratio differences between how the BDs should have been, and the unfortunate reality.

Look at House's original post for actual BD caps.


wow now I don't know if I should get this series. I already own all the seasons but I wanted to see what it would look like in blu-ray. I think I might netflix this show and see a comparison. If I like it then I'll just buy it but so far I really wish it was in widescreen. Warner just drop the ball on this one
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post #23 of 85 Old 08-13-2008, 08:41 PM
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This is the same release as the DVD, exactly as to be expected. I'm certain all forthcoming seasons from S2 onward will be widescreen as with the DVDs. I would encourage picking it up, because as noted:

1. You are not missing any information, in fact you have extra info, it is OAR.
2. By purchasing this you are showing Warner you are interested in this type of release- rememeber, this is the first release of its kind.

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post #24 of 85 Old 08-14-2008, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveFi View Post

1. You are not missing any information, in fact you have extra info, it is OAR.

So you would call all those live action open matte movies shown on HDTV channels OAR even though they were shown in 2.35 theatrically?
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post #25 of 85 Old 08-14-2008, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vazel View Post

So you would call all those live action open matte movies shown on HDTV channels OAR even though they were shown in 2.35 theatrically?

As has been mentioned the "original showings" were 4:3 with a repeat only at 16:9, again no picture is missing and it's not like a boom mic is going to appear in the extra area!

As davefi says if you don't buy this don't expect to see any other seasons...

M
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post #26 of 85 Old 08-14-2008, 03:14 AM
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But the creators intended this for 16:9.

And I'm still going to buy this. Even though I find the lack of the OAR as intended by the creators annoying I'm not one to avoid purchases of content I really like because of OAR or DNR. In the end it's the content that matters the most.
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post #27 of 85 Old 08-14-2008, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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In any event, fullscreen/widescreen aside, let's hope Warner decide to put out the other seasons, because they start to get really good.
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post #28 of 85 Old 08-14-2008, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vazel View Post

But the creators intended this for 16:9.

Then they could've done what they did from Season Two on and there'd be no debate. There were compromises made in Season One. Bruce Timm even referred to the full frame version as the "most complete" while trying to justify that version's release on DVD. Granted, he still prefers the widescreen version, but he sounds like he can make a case for either as well. And, I suppose those that have some way to zoom in can create their own "matted" version, if so desired (even though that may not be ideal).

I would not have cried if it had been released 16:9. But, I'm ok with it being released the way it is. The screenshots in this thread are great for showing the argument for 16:9 being "the" version. There are others out there that will show the inverse if you want to be pro 4:3. For example, some of the screen shots the toonzone article (linked to below) on the widescreen situation look wrong (to me) if you leave the matte over it. Of course, they are all STATIC images of animated material, so you aren't really getting an idea of where the animated characters end up in the frame a second later and where they were a second before... People have really used whatever will best fit with their stance on the AR.

It would've been nice for them to provide both versions... Let's just hope they don't windowbox Season 2. For some reason, I wouldn't put it past them to see that the DVD is 4:3 letterboxed and just do the same on Blu-Ray. Hopefully, nobody at WB is that insane, though...

http://jl.toonzone.net/widescreen/widescreen.htm
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post #29 of 85 Old 08-14-2008, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonJF View Post

For some reason, I wouldn't put it past them to see that the DVD is 4:3 letterboxed and just do the same on Blu-Ray. Hopefully, nobody at WB is that insane, though...

Don't worry, as with other BD releases so far, I suspect this was more a case of laziness than anything else. They just didn't want to take the time to remaster it for widescreen- not an excuse, but at least they put a 5.1DD surround track on it. I doubt they would go and change the JL and JLU DVDs that from S2 onward were all anamorphically enhanced.

This is why I encourage everyone to pick up S1- to show Warner we are interested in the Timm classic animated series on BD.

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post #30 of 85 Old 08-14-2008, 01:05 PM
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From Support 'Justice League Widescreen' (Updated):

Quote:


The Sunday night airings of Justice League will be something Cartoon Network has never attempted before: showing a regular series in widescreen.

While originally thought that Justice League was animated widescreen and altered into full frame, it is the opposite. The widescreen showing will be "matted", meaning black bars placed over the tops and bottom of the full frame screen to give the widescreen feel. But according to Bruce Timm, that is how it is supposed to be, and it was an uphill battle to make it that way. Bruce Timm informed TZN about this matter, and why fans should watch and support the widescreen version of Justice League.

"...[It] was a major battle to get Cartoon Network to agree to a regularly scheduled widescreen airing....we prepared the show with the widescreen ratio in mind..., and we feel the show just plain LOOKS better that way, the compositions are tighter, more focused, etc....it also helps give the show that "epic movie" look we were trying to achieve....certainly the full-frame version works well, too, we just prefer the widescreen version...if the ratings just plummet for the widescreen airings, I guess Cartoon Network will just stop airing 'em that way....the best of all possible worlds would be for folks to watch the show BOTH ways, but i realize that's a lot to ask...!"

The show was done in a widescreen format also in anticipation of the upcoming next generation of television sets, which will be widescreen HDTV. Full frame shows will translate poorly into widescreen TVs, which was another reason for the widescreen format on Justice League. Below are comparisons of the widescreen and full frame versions.




Also, I transcribed a relevant portion of the DVD commentary from the episode "The Enemy Below, Part II":

Quote:


Bruce Timm: Cartoon Network was, I have to say it, they were a dream to work with and they still are, every step of the way with this show. I mean, we asked them, "Hey, can we run these shows in widescreen?" because at this point we were switching over to boarding and producing our shows in widescreen in preparation for the future when everything goes HD, so we were already producing the show in widescreen, so it would be great to actually air the show that way, and they were a little resistant to it at first just because it's unusual, but they actually, they agreed to air the show, at least half of their airings up front in widescreen, which was a big deal.

James Tucker: And they really promoted those widescreens when they did show them in that format, it was really a special presentation in widescreen, and it was really nice.

Rich Fogel: Yeah, and since these things were sort of conceived as mini-movies, that widescreen helped give it that cinematic feel.

Bruce Timm: Definitely, and it was hard to squeeze seven characters into a frame sometimes without having that extra footage on the side, so all across the board that was a good thing.

Rich Fogel: Yeah, and when you look at these things in full frame, they tend to look a little floaty or something like that, but it really gets good compositionally when you squeeze it down to the widescreen.

Bruce Timm: Well, a lot of people don't realize the first season that we did, like for this episode here, this was actually -- we switched formats in between season one and season two -- this was actually done full frame, but with the widescreen in mind. So you're looking at extra top and bottom of the picture, and then season two, we switched over to the opposite way, where we actually were composing -- the entire picture was prepared widescreen, and then for the full frame showings they would actually crop off the sides. So it doesn't actually look wrong full frame, you're not actually missing any information --

James Tucker: Not for season one.

Bruce Timm: -- for season one, yeah, the full frames are fine for that, but it definitely looks better when it's widescreen, though, when it's cropped in a little tighter. A rectangle's a more interesting shape than a square.

Given all this evidence, I find it amazing that anyone could be satisfied with having the "full frame" version of JL season one on BD. The whole point in making the widescreen version to begin with was to have a version that would work best on HDTVs.

The fact that Warner didn't use the widescreen version for the BD makes this one of their biggest BD screwups yet.
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