Salo, or the 120 Days of Sodom comparison *PIX* - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 01:30 PM
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Wow Xylon, you're a glutton for punishment, it is not like you haven't been warned to stay away from Salo

This is the first time that judging by the DVD screencaps I would probably prefer to watch the DVD version.
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post #32 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post

This is the first time that judging by the DVD screencaps I would probably prefer to watch the DVD version.

Exactly what is it that you prefer in the DVD screen caps? As bad as the Blu-ray shots look, the DVD shots look even worse in every instance.

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post #33 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 01:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rach View Post

I completely agree with your take on the slasher/ torture porn. However, because this appeals to "higher instincts" does not excuse the mental side effects that can occur from watching something like this...ask any good psychologist or pyschiatrist worth his salt. This is not "entertainment" or in the category of "must be seen" so history doesn't repeat itself.

I disagree with that statement...For me if you are inclined to do something bad then you are going to do it regardless of what you watch - If you are that way inclined even an episode of Scooby Doo can set you off or the color blue or reading a newspaper article and there is no logic to it sometimes because i firmly believe people are born bad and that it's in their genes and no amount of psychological mumbo jumbo will convince me otherwise.

It's all too easy to blame society or what people watch or blame a person's upbringing....Truth is that some people are born evil and that's why serial killers start out at a very young age by torturing and killing animals because they frankly can't help themselves and are born that way ( not because they watched Salo or some other film )

I mean many people are living in bad circumstances but they don't turn into killers or cause harm to people nor do they do it because of watching a tv show or a film therefore there is a trigger within them which has been there from the day they were born.

Yes i'm stating a controversial opinion but science has only touched upon what makes some people tick.

I think if this film repulses you then that's a good thing in much the same way as watching Speed 2 repulsed me when i first watched it.
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post #34 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 02:10 PM
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I disagree with that statement...For me if you are inclined to do something bad then you are going to do it regardless of what you watch - If you are that way inclined even an episode of Scooby Doo can set you off or the color blue or reading a newspaper article and there is no logic to it sometimes because i firmly believe people are born bad and that it's in their genes and no amount of psychological mumbo jumbo will convince me otherwise.

It's all too easy to blame society or what people watch or blame a person's upbringing....Truth is that some people are born evil and that's why serial killers start out at a very young age by torturing and killing animals because they frankly can't help themselves and are born that way ( not because they watched Salo or some other film )

I mean many people are living in bad circumstances but they don't turn into killers or cause harm to people nor do they do it because of watching a tv show or a film therefore there is a trigger within them which has been there from the day they were born.

Yes i'm stating a controversial opinion but science has only touched upon what makes some people tick.

I think if this film repulses you then that's a good thing in much the same way as watching Speed 2 repulsed me when i first watched it.

The funny thing is that I absolutely agree with your statements. I believe in personal responsibility for one's actions and I also believe some people are just evil. I know...it's quite an outdated concept. I just don't see a movie like this as entertainment in any way shape or form. Further, I think the psychological damage is not that you will act out these repulsive scenarios but that you are mentally tainted for lack of a better word. Your mind was not meant to see such vile acts and you will not be better for watching them. Again, not preaching, just an opinion.

By the way, Scotland is one of my favorite countries. Surprised my wife and took her there on my honeymoon. What part of Scotland do you call home?
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post #35 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Average View Post

For those wondering just what the hell what happened here, it's worth reading the Blu-ray.com thread on the subject, which has some good info amongst the disgusting apologetics for what might go down in history as the Worst HD Transfer Ever. Of particular note is Torsten Kaiser's post, which details the provenance of the master and specific mistakes made along the way -- apparently they didn't even have the telecine equipment configured correctly!

That thread is full of comedy gold.

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As expected, screenshot scientology and obsessing over minor artefacts, which get blown out of proportion.

Sorry, it still looks great on my set-up. Salo is three-dimensional, has "sufficient" detail and isn't edgy to point the picture breaks down. The picture has a certain harshness to it, yes
.

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In my opinion, 4,5 out of 5 is indeed where this transfer stands. Furthermore, I happen to believe that there aren't universal standards that Blu-ray has set in terms of quality and adequate replication of the "original" theatrical look that we could all follow (on a different forum a small group of people has come forward in claiming possession of these standards, and apparently feels qualified to critically deconstruct every Blu-ray release claiming that their evaluation is correct, but I am most certainly not a fan of their methodology). If there were, then we would not have people questioning The Dark Knight, a BD transfer which is apparently regarded by Mr.Harris as one of the best to be released in 2008.

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post #36 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 02:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Exactly what is it that you prefer in the DVD screen caps? As bad as the Blu-ray shots look, the DVD shots look even worse in every instance.

Agreed.
I don't know how anyone could say otherwise.
Maybe cuz the film is so reviled?
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post #37 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 02:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rach View Post

The funny thing is that I absolutely agree with your statements. I believe in personal responsibility for one's actions and I also believe some people are just evil. I know...it's quite an outdated concept. I just don't see a movie like this as entertainment in any way shape or form. Further, I think the psychological damage is not that you will act out these repulsive scenarios but that you are mentally tainted for lack of a better word. Your mind was not meant to see such vile acts and you will not be better for watching them. Again, not preaching, just an opinion.

By the way, Scotland is one of my favorite countries. Surprised my wife and took her there on my honeymoon. What part of Scotland do you call home?

I'm from the Scottish borders and i think your threshhold levels for what you watch can change.....So i do think you can become desensitized after a while to certain types of film but i'm not as convinced that's such a bad thing. I mean in context i think everyone should learn about the Holocaust in school so that it never is repeated and i do not believe in hiding such things from younger minds because they need to know about these things and will become better people for knowing about history.

Which part of Scotland did you visit ?

Oh by the way the Blu Ray is very bad but of course the DVD is even worse.
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post #38 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Exactly what is it that you prefer in the DVD screen caps? As bad as the Blu-ray shots look, the DVD shots look even worse in every instance.

The caps of the DVD look less digital and less processed. They are softer but more natural looking and surfaces do not seem to have a life of their own compared to the Blu-Ray either. I also strongly dislike the high frequency halos on the Blu-Ray. I can see where most would find the Blu-Ray to be improved due to more high frequency detail, but for me this is not the only criteria of picture quality.

So overall to me the DVD provides the more balanced picture. Not that I would strive to watch Salo in its DVD version, I would rather want to watch it in a cinema or in a better Blu-Ray incarnation, maybe Criterion will pick this one up for a Blu-Ray release in the US.
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post #39 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Exactly what is it that you prefer in the DVD screen caps? As bad as the Blu-ray shots look, the DVD shots look even worse in every instance.

Take a look at this again my friend. The transfer on the blu-ray has been altered so much that the integrity of the film is gone. Some may say that "Dont throw the baby out of the bathwater" Its true in some parts the colors and resolution are better than DVD but the bad parts and of which the majority of the transfer it will kick and punch you and make you think "WTF is this!?"

I can't believe I am saying it but for this instance the Criterion DVD you have is preferable. With no distracting anomalies. Wait for the next transfer to high-definition from a company that knows what they are doing.
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post #40 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 03:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Take a look at this again my friend.

I looked again and to me the DVD looks like it came from the same print even if it did not because i see the same edge enhancement and the same issues but in a lower definition and the only other differences i see is that the Blu Ray has had the brightness/contrast boosted and some extra sharpening applied.....Both look atrocious.
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post #41 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 03:18 PM
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The softer dvd image hides the ugliness that is clear in HD.
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post #42 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 03:20 PM
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Thank you again, Xylon. I swear, the added noise and the inherent softness on the DVD helps mask the plasticine look of the Blu-ray! Particularly in that first shot, where there's virtually no additional detail to be found in the HD capture thanks to it being caked in nasty looking DNR.

The frustrating part is that the Criterion DVD and the BFI Blu-ray are from the same HD master, trouble is that it's just barely better than a DVD to begin with. The closer to the source you get the more the warts of the original transfer shine through. I'd say that there's hope for a Criterion Blu-ray, but they've been handed a sow's ear, and I'm not convinced they can do anything else unless the Pasolini Foundation (or whoever's in charge of the negative) are willing to do a new telecine from scratch. And I doubt that'd be cheap.

A "4.5 out of 5"? Because it's marginally better than the DVD releases from the same HD transfer?! Unbelievable. Suddenly I don't feel so bad that I only have a Region A player.
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Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

The softer dvd image hides the ugliness that is clear in HD.

I think you're right.
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post #44 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 07:59 PM
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That thread is full of comedy gold.

Indeed it is. And further proof that going to Blu-ray.com for movie reviews is like asking Mr McGoo for driving directions. No thanks. The bias is so think over there, you could cut it with a bread knife...

In terms of LFE, size does matter!
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post #45 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 08:46 PM
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post #46 of 110 Old 01-12-2009, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Rach View Post

I completely agree with your take on the slasher/ torture porn. However, because this appeals to "higher instincts" does not excuse the mental side effects that can occur from watching something like this...ask any good psychologist or pyschiatrist worth his salt. This is not "entertainment" or in the category of "must be seen" so history doesn't repeat itself. Saving Private Ryan or Schindler's List is something that makes one uncomfortable but must be seen. I don't need to see a film or reenactment of the Austrian guy who raped his daughter hundreds of times and kept her in the basement to know it's wrong or call it out as evil. Not preaching just my 2 cents. It's just hard for me to understand the lure here.

To my knowledge there has never been conclusive findings that cinematic depravity creates real-life depravity where none was previously likely to exist.
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post #47 of 110 Old 01-13-2009, 02:28 AM
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To my knowledge there has never been conclusive findings that cinematic depravity creates real-life depravity where none was previously likely to exist.

Indeed, there hasn't. How they'd even try to prove such a thing I'd love to see: show a thousand babies horror movies every single day until the age of 25, and then see how many of them snap and stab their psychologist with a ball point pen? The way people talk about this stuff and the advent of so-called mainstream "torture porn", you'd think that one in four people would be mass murderers by now. Hey, that'd solve the energy crisis and overpopulation issue in no time, wouldn't it? And just think of the job openings! Goodbye failing economy... Violence existed long before films and video games gave simulated torture to the masses. Heck, it existed from the very start of recorded history! The fact that society can now shift the blame from the accused - a living, breathing, thinking, feeling human being who made the choice to impose harm on another - to an electronic bogeyman kind of saddens me.

Salo isn't bad, exactly. It's certainly polished, it's smarter than it should be, and it's less graphic than its infamy would suggest. The issues I have with the film aren't the graphic nudity or the explicit violence, more the thematic structure that tries to convince us that fascism is wrong because it puts absolute power in the hands of people who may then freely abuse it. It's an admirable statement, and using the work of de Sade as a starting point was a nice touch, since he himself was obsessed with the concept of people only behaving because they felt they had to. Unfortunately the film doesn't present fascists exerting their political power, it just puts sadistic libertines in fascists uniforms and begs us to make the connection ourselves. I just don't buy it.

I'm disappointed that more critics haven't picked this angle apart, but I guess something distracts them from thinking about the film's message... what ever could that be, I wonder?

For the record: One of the greatest exploitation films of the last 40 years was the one about Christ made by a certain Australian actor who the world once knew as Max. Yet because that's a Hollywood film with better production values and wasn't recorded in a modern language, that one's essential viewing. Meanwhile Pasolini's own film about Jesus, the one about his life, his views, his unpolished and realist historical legacy - not just his physical destruction - will probably only ever be seen by film buffs looking it over as a historical artifact. Just something to mull over while others continue to write off Salo as a work of sick child porn.

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post #48 of 110 Old 01-13-2009, 02:59 AM
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Both look atrocious.

Couldn't agree more. The disc producers should be ashamed for the quality of this release, I'm surprised they had the gall to release it!
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post #49 of 110 Old 01-13-2009, 03:04 AM
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There are 2 Blu Ray versions on the disc. The (spanish?) version is grainier than the English version.

Genius is an insult to my intelligence!

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post #50 of 110 Old 01-13-2009, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Rach View Post

I completely agree with your take on the slasher/ torture porn. However, because this appeals to "higher instincts" does not excuse the mental side effects that can occur from watching something like this...ask any good psychologist or pyschiatrist worth his salt. This is not "entertainment" or in the category of "must be seen" so history doesn't repeat itself. Saving Private Ryan or Schindler's List is something that makes one uncomfortable but must be seen. I don't need to see a film or reenactment of the Austrian guy who raped his daughter hundreds of times and kept her in the basement to know it's wrong or call it out as evil. Not preaching just my 2 cents. It's just hard for me to understand the lure here.

I'm not arguing you or anybody else should see it. After seeing this film the first time in the 90s I said to myself: I will never ever watch it again. Either you take such subjects seriously and then watching something like this is almost unbearable or you are not. Which raises questions about your general relationship to violence and the arts (or commerce) and your level of maturity and life experience as a human being. The emergence of violent video games and exploitation flicks has changed the playing field since the 70s. I don't know how Pasolini would go about such a film today if he still lived. The way he did it in the 70s is rather timeless, though. All these sicko modern attempts to gross out the audience are immature child's play in comparison. Hollow and corrupt to the bone. These days Michael Haneke makes 'serious' films about violence. Can't say with what results as I have not dared so far to watch his contributions.
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post #51 of 110 Old 01-13-2009, 03:31 AM
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Couldn't agree more. The disc producers should be ashamed for the quality of this release, I'm surprised they had the gall to release it!

The saddest part in all of this is that the current Criterion release is about 10 times better than their first attempt a decade ago. A heavily green tinted, non-anamorphic, out of focus PAL>NTSC transfer with no extras at all? Honestly, Criterion, you shouldn't have...
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post #52 of 110 Old 01-13-2009, 05:48 AM
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I'm from the Scottish borders and i think your threshhold levels for what you watch can change.....So i do think you can become desensitized after a while to certain types of film but i'm not as convinced that's such a bad thing. I mean in context i think everyone should learn about the Holocaust in school so that it never is repeated and i do not believe in hiding such things from younger minds because they need to know about these things and will become better people for knowing about history.

Which part of Scotland did you visit ?

Oh by the way the Blu Ray is very bad but of course the DVD is even worse.

I've probably stated my opinion loud enough so I will move on to my love of Scotland. I told my wife that we were going to Lake Tahoe as we stood in the British Airways line to check in. It was a month after 9/11 and the airports were still chaotic which added to her confusion. It only took her about 5 minutes to realize that something wasn't right. I finally had to tell her that we were flying to London for a day or two then a train to Edinburgh. We rented a car and drove through the Highlands to Inverness, Loch Ness, the Isle of Skye, Aviemore (?) spending the night in B&Bs. We both loved it. My mother is Scottish from the Loch Lomond area. Anyway, can't wait to get back someday. Beautiful country...and of course, my favorite modern film is Braveheart.
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post #53 of 110 Old 01-14-2009, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post

Wow Xylon, you're a glutton for punishment, it is not like you haven't been warned to stay away from Salo

This is the first time that judging by the DVD screencaps I would probably prefer to watch the DVD version.

I have been warned about Zulu
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post #54 of 110 Old 01-14-2009, 05:42 AM - Thread Starter
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There are 2 Blu Ray versions on the disc. The (spanish?) version is grainier than the English version.

Is this confirmed?
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post #55 of 110 Old 01-14-2009, 06:08 AM
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Xylon: yep you are REALLY popular over there. Your biggest "fan" (starts with a P and ends with an N) never misses an opportunity to say nice things about you.

I agree that they are way to lenient with certain discs shortcomings.

As to this particular film I am not familiar with it. Sounds intriguing and will probably rent it from Netflix.

I see on Amazon.com that the distributer has discontinued the blu-ray version of this film.

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post #56 of 110 Old 01-14-2009, 07:33 AM
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Did Amazon.com ever stock this? I was under the impression they only imported region-free titles. None of the UK e-tailers I've checked show that it's discontinued (including Amazon UK).
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post #57 of 110 Old 01-14-2009, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Is this confirmed?

Well the PS3 defaulted to the foreign version, and the quality was terrible as I waited for it to start, then I heard the language, and swapped to the English version. Suddenly the quality was quite a bit better.

Genius is an insult to my intelligence!

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post #58 of 110 Old 01-14-2009, 09:41 PM
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Damn. Those grabs are right up there with the worst I have seen.

The thing that is by far the most disconcerting to me about this is the fact that this is a Criterion release (I don't care about this film at all).

Why did I think Criterion would be immune from doing this type of crap (pardon the pun)? I think I have shown some ignorance here.

Who does their transfers? Is it in house, or do they refer it out?
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post #59 of 110 Old 01-14-2009, 10:01 PM
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Wow, someone is actually defending this over on that other forum? have they ever SEEN a good blu-ray or have any idea of what one looks like
That looks like a blotchy mess... an appalling display of incompetence and/or indifference. Hope people save their money.
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post #60 of 110 Old 01-14-2009, 10:27 PM
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Damn. Those grabs are right up there with the worst I have seen.

The thing that is by far the most disconcerting to me about this is the fact that this is a Criterion release (I don't care about this film at all).

Why did I think Criterion would be immune from doing this type of crap (pardon the pun)? I think I have shown some ignorance here.

Who does their transfers? Is it in house, or do they refer it out?

I don't believe Criterion did the BD release Rob. I think the DVD is Criterion, but not the BD.
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