The Good, The Bad and the Ugly comparison *PIX* - Page 15 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #421 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 05:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

Foxy, your search for the highest possible standards is commendable, and to be applauded.



I venture to suggest that neither of you has ‘the wrong priorities’, just different ones, each tailored to suit his own wants, needs and tastes.

As a cinephile, Frayling's priority is to get access to the best looking/sounding version of the film possible, then to enjoy it as much as possible.

An Audio/Videophile yours is to not settle for anything less than the best, and that your enjoyment of the film will be damaged if you're not getting this.

As I say, neither is wrong or right, but each person's satisfaction will reveal their priorities. As I say, it'd the difference between a film fan first and foremost, or an AV fan first and foremost.

For me, I share Sir Chris's priorities, and don't feel I should be subject to ridicule for that.

Steve W

Wrong and i disagree strongly.

I am not an "audio/videophile" as you put it. I have always first and foremost been a huge film fan from my youngest days onward.

To suggest i am some sort of techno geek is frankly absurd and annoying and also once again kinda insulting and i can read between the lines with your comments.

Frayling wants the best possible version. May i suggest he purchase the Italian edition as the MGM clearly isn't the best. May i also suggest a true cinephile and true film fan would move heaven and earth to purchase the best edition of a film even if it has an Italian language track. Buy it and then do your utmost to purchase a compatible english language edition and use two players ( even if one is a VHS deck ) to play the movie and get the sound in sync or use the computer to make your own version.

You see a true movie fan doesn't just sit back and say awwww shucks MGM tried their best and the Mondo release has Italian audio so i'm screwed.....Nah us true movie fans want to watch the best possible edition of a movie and will not settle for less especially when we know a studio has frankly been incompetent with the transfer and applied too much processing.

So nah Mr Pecker i'm a cinephile and a true film fan and i appreciate that with Blu Ray we have the ability to get films which look like film in our homes and i kindly suggest you and Mr Frayling are perhaps too accepting of mediocre and too forgiving and perhaps make too many excuses just to justify the purchase.

Be a true film fan and don't settle for better than the DVD if better than the DVD is clearly processed and ugly. Don't be afraid to admit you got it wrong as god knows i have got it wrong before and was fast to admit it in several threads. Most of all don't presume you are a film fan just because you accept any old transfer they throw your way. All that tells me is you are willing to lower your standards and compromise. I don't generally compromise too much but i make no apologies for who i am.

So let me say again i'm a film fan. Nope i don't always need the absolute best possible transfer ( although thats appreciated ) and i don't always need them to go back and make a new master or spend more money on one but i do appreciate they don't apply processing or edge enhancement or degraining to prints which shouldn't have it done to them and it's the additional processing which usually has me and a few others coming onto these boards and expressing opinions. Just give me a high standard with little processing. I'll take a print with specks on it and dirt as long as it's got the film look to it. See Robin Hood: Prince Of Thieves thread for my posts there and it'll explain more.

I just don't think you get me and i don't think you ever will. I'm a film fan and i want the film look. I don't want the video look on Blu Ray.

Leone's family supplied the negatives. Mondo did restoration work on the release which by all accounts is as valid as MGM's restoration work. Mondo's release left the grain structure intact which is why it actually has some additional detail while MGM's removed too much of it which is why it has less detail. Which one is the best release. Which one does Mr Frayling and Pecker endorse. Oh yah will someone please get Stevie Wonder to review the MGM version as i'm sure he will also endorse it as just a fine looking disc.

So nah i am a film fan and always will be but i appreciate and want quality in anything i watch on Blu Ray because i appreciate the fact Blu Ray can deliver that quality and the only stumbling block to that quality is cheap assed studio's or employee's who love their processing tools a little bit too much.
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post #422 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

You see a true movie fan doesn't just sit back and say awwww shucks MGM tried their best and the Mondo release has Italian audio so i'm screwed...

Of course they don't, they learn Italian instead.

No?

What do they do?

Here are my choices:

1 - Learn Italian
2 - Try pratting about with my PC, synching audio, etc
3 - Stick with my much poorer SD DVD
4 - Buy the MGM version and enjoy it as much as possible
5 - Buy the MGM version and whine about it constantly

I've chosen Option 4. You think that makes me 'wrong'.

Steve W
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post #423 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 06:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

Of course they don't, they learn Italian instead.

No?

What do they do?

Here are my choices:

1 - Learn Italian
2 - Try pratting about with my PC, synching audio, etc
3 - Stick with my much poorer SD DVD
4 - Buy the MGM version and enjoy it as much as possible
5 - Buy the MGM version and whine about it constantly

I've chosen Option 4. You think that makes me 'wrong'.

Steve W

I think your continuing to post here and defend this release in spite of the fact the Italian version is superior and also had restoration work carried out on it and it should be noted came directly from the Leone family makes you either a person looking for an argument or someone looking to defend your purchase.

I think your continuing statements about Chrisopher Frayling is either an attempt to silence the critics or more likely an attempt by you to justify your purchase by proclaiming "oh look this guys an expert or knows everything about this release and he says it's stunning so all of you disbelievers be quiet"

If i am wrong about that then why do you feel the need to post defending the release when clearly it has now been proven that a superior edition exists.

Heres a thought and an option 6.

Rent the Blu Ray edition and wait for a superior edition to be released.
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post #424 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

Heres a thought and an option 6.

Rent the Blu Ray edition and wait for a superior edition to be released.

That's a fair point, Foxy.

Unfortunately the title hasn't been released in the UK, so that's not a possibility.

Listen, be sure that if this is reissued with better PQ I'll be buying it. But for now I'll enjoy what I have,

Is that 'justifying my purchase'? That's not how I'd put it, but if you want to put it that way I suppose you could.

Frankly, as I've said it cost me £10, and a rental would have cost me £2 or £3. If a new version arrives I'll get £5 for my copy used, so I'll only be £2 or £3 out of pocket.

Steve W
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post #425 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 07:30 AM
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Received my Italian The Good, the Bad and the Ugly today. Indeed looks very nice and clearly better than the MGM/Fox/Deltamac release I imported from Hong Kong earlier.

HD DVD: 387 (new: Taking Lives ; list)
Blu-ray: 262 (new: North Face (UK) ; list)
HD DVD-R: 262 (new: Charlie Wilson's War ; list)
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post #426 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stwrt View Post

Then why do you feel the need to use Frayling's knighthood to back up your posts, dude ? - I think you'll find they don't get dished out in a Republic.

That's just daft.

Most countries have similar awards, they're just called different things. If the UK were a republic he'd not have a kinighthood, but he would have something of equal stature.

His knighthood is important not because of the form of government which bestows it, but because of the reason it was awarded.

Frayling was given a knighthood for his contribution to the arts. He's worked hardest for cinema, and his area of specialism is Leone.

Having said that, being a knight he might not call people 'dude', so there may well be a difference.

Steve W
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post #427 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 10:11 AM
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Almost weekend, what better to do than sit down at an editing workstation and make an english dub for the Mondo disc. I managed to edit the audio track from the MGM BD into a synchronized track for the Mondo. There are lots of minor (and some major) differences between the two versions, it took almost 50 cuts to get it in sync. I placed most of them in spots where you won't notice them. In a couple of cases I had to loop a few frames that where missing on the MGM from adjacent frames. However, the real puzzle was the Tuco torture scene, which for some reason has a totally different order of shots, so I had to rearrange the segments into the order of the Italian version. Since I didn't have the stems, some of the transitions are a bit bumpy as a result, but nothing too jarring (and I tried to smooth it out a bit via crossfading).

Obviously I can't just post the audio file since the audio is copyrighted material. But I exported an EDL and made an Avisynth script out of it that everybody can use to recreate the dub.

You need:

  • Avisynth 2.58 with installed SoundOut and NicAudio plugins.
  • Some program that can open Avisynth scripts, e.g. a video editor like Virtualdub or a media player such as MPC-HC (in the latter case stop playback once the SoundOut dialog box appears). It does not matter what program it is, since the actual work is done by Avisynth and SoundOut.
  • The audio track from the MGM BD in PCM format (can be generated e.g. by eac3to).

Now

  1. Paste the Avisynth script below into a text editor and replace my filename for the pcm file with your own. Save the file e.g. as "gbudub.avs".
  2. Open the .avs file with a suitable program. After a few seconds you should see the SoundOut dialog box. Click on "Save FLAC" and choose a filename and compression level for your output file.

Now SoundOut should export the audio. After a few minutes you should have a flac file with a runtime of 02:54:23. Now you can mux it with the video in the format of your choice ...

One more thing: Please respect the copyright and do *not* post the resulting audio file here or anywhere else. Everybody who has a use for it can easily generate it for themselves.

Here's the script:
 

Code:
/*
 * GBUDub.avs
 *
 * This script generates a synced English dub for the
 * Italian Blu-ray release of "The Good, the Bad, and
 * the Ugly" out of the audio track of the MGM Blu-ray.
 *
 * Input file:
 *   PCM (big endian) format, 48kHz/24 bit, 6 channels
 *   runtime 02:58:41
 *
 * The runtime of the output file should be 02:54:23.
 *
 * "Rigby Reardon" @ AVSForum, 2009-10-18
 */

# Replace with your own filename here
au0 = NicLPCMSource("d:\video\GBU\gbu_6ch.pcm", 48000, -24, 6)

bl0 = BlankClip(length=256135, fps=24000, fps_denominator=1001, \
                channels=6, audio_rate=48000, sample_type="24bit")

av0 = AudioDub(bl0, au0)

Trim(bl0,    0    ,    413    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    312    ,    4237    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    4254    ,    18251    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    18253    ,    27442    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    27441    ,    35469    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    35469    ,    35796    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    35796    ,    40375    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    40378    ,    55111    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    59854    ,    66116    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    66109    ,    75416    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    75418    ,    76166    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    76168    ,    91535    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    91534    ,    94950    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    94950    ,    118982    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    118974    ,    124891    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    124891    ,    141569    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    141569    ,    147641    ) ++ \
Dissolve( \
  Trim(av0,    149245    ,    149536    ), \
  Trim(av0,    147643    ,    148134    ), 10 \
) ++ \
Dissolve( \
  Trim(av0,    148132    ,    148324    ), \
  Trim(av0,    148321    ,    149145    ), \
  Trim(av0,    150217    ,    150497    ), \
  Trim(av0,     150490    ,    150710    ), \
  Trim(av0,    150705    ,    150791    ), \
  Trim(av0,    150787    ,    151022    ), \
  Trim(av0,    149522    ,    149805    ), \
  Trim(av0,    151029    ,    151406    ), \
  Trim(av0,    151396    ,    151510    ), 2 \
) ++ \
Dissolve( \
  Trim(av0,    151510    ,    152091    ), \
  Trim(av0,    149792    ,    150237    ), \
  Trim(av0,    152075    ,    152492    ), 20 \
) ++ \
Dissolve( \
  Trim(av0,    152583    ,    152921    ), \
  Trim(av0,    152984    ,    154010    ), 2 \
) ++ \
Trim(av0,    154010    ,    163697    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    163699    ,    168009    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    168009    ,    168723    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    168723    ,    175351    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    175351    ,    176293    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    176284    ,    211334    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    211337    ,    223241    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    223240    ,    224481    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    224480    ,    234857    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    234859    ,    244119    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    244116    ,    244155    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    244155    ,    244722    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    244724    ,    245819    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    245821    ,    249585    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    249974    ,    253861    ) ++ \
Trim(av0,    253890    ,    256134    ).FadeOut0(240)

SoundOut()

# End of script

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post #428 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 12:26 PM
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Rigby,

Great work on doing that.

How long did it take you from start to finish?
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post #429 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannisto View Post

Received my Italian The Good, the Bad and the Ugly today. Indeed looks very nice and clearly better than the MGM/Fox/Deltamac release I imported from Hong Kong earlier.

Kannisto,

We have some screencaps comparing the two BD versions. Can you give us some more screencaps? How about some closeups of all three main characters?
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post #430 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 01:48 PM
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Awesome work Rigby! You just saved us a lot of time and hassle. Thank you very much!

Now, all I need now is a Blu-ray burner, the MGM disc, and the Mondo disc....
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post #431 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SED <--- Rules View Post

Awesome work Rigby! You just saved us a lot of time and hassle. Thank you very much!

Now, all I need now is a Blu-ray burner, the MGM disc, and the Mondo disc....

I have all three. Ok, lets get to work...
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post #432 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blasst View Post

Kannisto,

We have some screencaps comparing the two BD versions. Can you give us some more screencaps? How about some closeups of all three main characters?

Blasst, I'll try to get some more caps this weekend and will post here then. I don't have a workflow for matching frames though so I might not be able to get identical frames unless I manage to match them by eye. My wife's busy with the desktop on some work project though, but hopefully I can get some runtime on the PC this weekend

And Rigby, thanks very much for sharing your script and instructions! I'll be surely trying it out. Haven't much fiddled with avisynth before though I installed it on my PC at some point. It'll be interesting.

HD DVD: 387 (new: Taking Lives ; list)
Blu-ray: 262 (new: North Face (UK) ; list)
HD DVD-R: 262 (new: Charlie Wilson's War ; list)
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post #433 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 10:24 PM
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Case pics:


HD DVD: 387 (new: Taking Lives ; list)
Blu-ray: 262 (new: North Face (UK) ; list)
HD DVD-R: 262 (new: Charlie Wilson's War ; list)
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post #434 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannisto View Post

Blasst, I'll try to get some more caps this weekend and will post here then. I don't have a workflow for matching frames though so I might not be able to get identical frames unless I manage to match them by eye. My wife's busy with the desktop on some work project though, but hopefully I can get some runtime on the PC this weekend

And Rigby, thanks very much for sharing your script and instructions! I'll be surely trying it out. Haven't much fiddled with avisynth before though I installed it on my PC at some point. It'll be interesting.

Workflow? All you need is MediaPlayerClassic HomeCinema. You can do single frame advances in it.
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post #435 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric.exe View Post

Workflow? All you need is MediaPlayerClassic HomeCinema. You can do single frame advances in it.

I use other players for my screencaps (usually Nero ShowTime or PowerDVD) since it works with them also and I've got them set up already. Just quite tricky to get matching frames with them of two different discs, haven't much experimented with that. I'll try to get them as close as I can though.

HD DVD: 387 (new: Taking Lives ; list)
Blu-ray: 262 (new: North Face (UK) ; list)
HD DVD-R: 262 (new: Charlie Wilson's War ; list)
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post #436 of 532 Old 10-16-2009, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kannisto View Post

I use other players for my screencaps (usually Nero ShowTime or PowerDVD) since it works with them also and I've got them set up already. Just quite tricky to get matching frames with them of two different discs, haven't much experimented with that. I'll try to get them as close as I can though.

Try it if possible. When it's set up right it's the only player you can trust not alter the output and provide perfect captures. PowerDVD and others could secretly be processing the video.
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post #437 of 532 Old 10-18-2009, 01:10 AM
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OK, installed Media Player Classic Homecinema and took these with that one. Left side is the MGM release and right side is the Mondo release. Hopefully my setup was correct.











HD DVD: 387 (new: Taking Lives ; list)
Blu-ray: 262 (new: North Face (UK) ; list)
HD DVD-R: 262 (new: Charlie Wilson's War ; list)
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post #438 of 532 Old 10-18-2009, 02:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blasst View Post

How long did it take you from start to finish?

About the whole Friday afternoon (and an hour or so that I spent earlier to create a project in the editing system and set some scene markers). After having seen the entire movie in one go with the english audio yesterday night, I have to say it was totally worth it. The movie never looked better.

BTW, I have applied some minor tweaks to the Avisynth script, shifting some of the cuts a little to better conceal a few spots during the torture scene were I had to fill in missing frames of the MGM. I have updated my posting above, so you may want to rerun the script.

Audio/video sync seems to be frame-perfect. One interesting tidbit I noticed while editing is that MGM apparently located a different take of Tuco's last shot, where the english translation syncs a little bit better with the lip movement of Eli Wallach's Italian scream. But of course "dirty bitch" will never quite transition into the final "ayeeh-ayeeh-aaahhh" as nicely as "grandissima puttana".
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post #439 of 532 Old 10-18-2009, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigby Reardon View Post

BTW, I have applied some minor tweaks to the Avisynth script, shifting some of the cuts a little to better conceal a few spots during the torture scene were I had to fill in missing frames of the MGM. I have updated my posting above, so you may want to rerun the script.

Audio/video sync seems to be frame-perfect. One interesting tidbit I noticed while editing is that MGM apparently located a different take of Tuco's last shot, where the english translation syncs a little bit better with the lip movement of Eli Wallach's Italian scream. But of course "dirty bitch" will never quite transition into the final "ayeeh-ayeeh-aaahhh" as nicely as "grandissima puttana".

Thanks again Rigby! I managed to create the English audio track yesterday with your script and instructions, but I haven't burned the enhanced mux on a BD-R DL yet so I can conveniently redo the audio with your further improvements first

HD DVD: 387 (new: Taking Lives ; list)
Blu-ray: 262 (new: North Face (UK) ; list)
HD DVD-R: 262 (new: Charlie Wilson's War ; list)
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post #440 of 532 Old 10-18-2009, 03:08 AM
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If those last caps of Eastwood chewing on a cigar in Kannisto's terrific post, are the exact same frame in the movie, then it looks like MGM also cropped - or zoomed - the picture frame slightly as well - you can see the upper part of the hat in the Italian frame but it disappears in the MGM frame.
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post #441 of 532 Old 10-18-2009, 03:26 AM
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A few more appetizers









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post #442 of 532 Old 10-18-2009, 03:39 AM
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Goddamn, the video on this disc is truly glorious. Clearly, the Italians have got the color right too. Now if they had sent me the correct disc instead of some italian art house movies...
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post #443 of 532 Old 10-18-2009, 03:56 AM
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Not even in the same league as the Mondo BD. The MGM BD looks like a dvd in comparison.
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post #444 of 532 Old 10-18-2009, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigby Reardon View Post

A few more appetizers

Now you have me wanting the main course.
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post #445 of 532 Old 10-18-2009, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Not even in the same league as the Mondo BD. The MGM BD looks like a dvd in comparison.

- and when you remember the noise these companies make about making sure you don't get the pirate copy because it will look like **** in comparison with the legit copy !
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post #446 of 532 Old 10-18-2009, 06:22 AM
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To be fair, the Mondo is not completely free of problems. Not all source elements look as good as the screenshots above, and sometimes the video encoder struggles with the grain. But the good clearly outweighs the bad and makes the MGM look somewhat ugly.
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post #447 of 532 Old 10-18-2009, 06:29 AM
 
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I dont care about such problems as long as I dont have to watch a waxfest
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post #448 of 532 Old 10-18-2009, 07:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by stwrt View Post

If those last caps of Eastwood chewing on a cigar in Kannisto's terrific post, are the exact same frame in the movie, then it looks like MGM also cropped - or zoomed - the picture frame slightly as well - you can see the upper part of the hat in the Italian frame but it disappears in the MGM frame.

I wonder if what happened regarding the cropping issue with the MGM release is the same as Mr D describes here.

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post17293718

He explains it's better to resize to avoid sub pixel softness.
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post #449 of 532 Old 10-18-2009, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

I wonder if what happened regarding the cropping issue with the MGM release is the same as Mr D describes here.

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post17293718

He explains it's better to resize to avoid sub pixel softness.

It looks like the sides and top were cropped, but the bottom of the frames are identical. In any case, the cropping is more severe here (about 10%)than in Labyrinth.
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post #450 of 532 Old 10-18-2009, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Not even in the same league as the Mondo BD. The MGM BD looks like a dvd in comparison.

I'll second that.
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