Star Trek: The Next Generation Motion Picture Collection *PIX* + reviews - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Has anyone seen the whole lot and can recommend any title if obvious DNR and EE are not welcome? Are Nemesis and First Contact 'ok'?

According to my eyes, First Contact looks excellent and is easily the best out of all of them. But, I watched the movie in motion, and not screenshot-to-screenshot, so what the hell do I know? Anyway, Generations comes in second, Nemesis comes in a very close third, and I'm not bothering with that other one.
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post #62 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Vipper IV View Post

But, I watched the movie in motion, and not screenshot-to-screenshot, so what the hell do I know?

Actually watching a movie in "motion" is a misnomer you are never watching it in motion, simply your mind interprets the rapid succession of still images as motion. Thus technically you did indeed watch it screen shot to screen shot, or rather frame to frame.

Though considered incorrect the concept persistence of motion is typically attributed, by film scholars, to how the mind interpolates motion between the rapid succession of still images.

Now one thing that does happen is if you do not have a proper frame of reference your mind will simply accept what as being shown as correct. However if you have an untouched frame or two interspersed amidst the DNR frames your mind will take note of the anomaly and you will not enjoy the rest of the presentation.

It is thanks to this that you are even able to watch SD on an HDTV is because you simply accept the quality, even though you know it is not HD. This also attributes why some folks do not see much difference between HD vs SD.

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post #63 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 07:03 AM
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Nemesis is DNRed. In theaters the alien planet footage was almost as grainy as Saving Private Ryan.

Here its seems to be grainless.
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post #64 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 07:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Ten Star Trek movies and only Wrath Of Khan and Nemesis are the ones that has a very satisfactory picture quality. Film like and natural. Nemesis PQ is excellent and the AQ is reference.

The rest of the movies . . . . . . . . the resulting PQ is nothing short of an abomination. The amateurs and the ignorants in charge of the blu-ray transfers are hell bent in getting rid of film grain no matter what. Nevermind if the resulting PQ has lost its fine details and look "waxy", as long as film grain is gone or reduced as much as possible. This is Star Trek: The Claymation™ Edition. They even try to boost the contrast, brightness and colors on some scenes to give it a little more "punchier" image.

I guess even on this small monitor that i use for the computer i can still spot issues with discs using just screenshots as i called it right in my early posts and yet i actually found myself doubting my observations because replies to me suggested the Blu Rays were ok. I guess i shouldn't doubt myself and that screenshots do actually tell you a lot more than just a review.

What the hell is Paramount playing at. It looks like they had great masters to work with and could have provided top knotch releases but someone had to justify their working hours and thus decided to apply contrast boosts, color changes and a little extra bit of DNR just for the Blu releases. There is no way the DNR and contrast boosting was in the masters because you can look at the DVD editions to see the changes were applied especially for the Blu Ray release.

The more screenshots that show up of First Contact and the more it looks very disappointing to me. It had very little grain to begin with so why remove it. Insurrection has suffered the worst and it's actually a movie i like a lot better than Nemesis since i found the Data plotline in Nemesis did not follow the television show and that annoyed the hell outta me.

I might as well post now before all the defenders of the faith leap in and say there is too much exaggeration going on and these releases are miles better than the DVD editions. For those disappointed like me then let's hold our breath and hope whoever was responsible for these releases don't get to work on the new Trek movie out in November.

Enjoy your Sapphire series Forrest Gump release folks

Everyone has a go at Warner for catalog titles but Warner deliver ok products. Nothing great in most of Warners catalog releases but usually they are acceptable and the main problem with Warner releases is low bitrate VC-1 tends to smooth the image slightly and people confuse that with DNR.

Paramount on the other hand DNR a lot and have poor quality masters that are probably baked with issues.

For me Paramount are the worst studio for catalog releases by a country mile. No question in my mind and this year has saw some abyssmal releases from them.

The only question though is why was Nemesis so good ? IMDB makes no mention of a digital intermediate and yet i suspect they had one as why else would it be so good yet the others have processing applied.

I also wonder why the green tint is on Generations ? That surely is a mistake. If it's not i'd be surprised and i don't think anyone can claim to know going by memory alone on how it looked at the cinema.

I'd have picked up all the Trek movies except the motion picture if they had just did justice to what the format is capable of and given us a film look rather than a processed look. The reason i wouldn't pick up the motion picture is because i have already said last year that i am holding out for the directors cut which i find superior in every regard.

I might as well just give up trying to explain why releases like this are bad because you get the same people not listening and instead expaining it's better than the DVD and looks just great to them. Ok i get it. You think we are all moaners and whingers and you think we nitpick too much. I really do get it. You are wrong though. Some of us are just passionate about the ability of Blu Ray to give us that great film look and we get annoyed when unnecessary processing tools are used.

Ok well i'm sure this thread will get some passionate debate. I think i might sit it out since i have expressed my opinion and well once again Paramount has lost a sale.

I have to say though that when you look at consumer sites like Amazon there is enormous misunderstanding of what grain is and a lot of people give top marks for a degrained movie and lower their marks for a movie with grain in. There are amateur reviewers all over the net have no clue either.

I think it's a losing battle and the future of high definition content is mediocrity. Yes i throw in the towel and say you get what you deserve and since most of you will buy this crap you will indeed get more mediocrity.

I'll just have to content myself with buying the odd Paramount catalog release which escapes the processing. I'll also have to hope other studio's do not follow suit but already i see Fox are back in the DNR game with recent releases like Wrong Turn. Universal never really left the game but hey they have dts hd master audio on their catalog releases so i guess that makes them ok

Ok i'm done. Moan over. You can all now go and give Paramount your money because after all these releases are the best they have ever looked and are better than the DVD.

I suppose some of you can say well Xylon bought them and got to check them out so now it's my turn to buy them so you can check them out and give your opinion. That's also fair enough and indeed that sounds better to me than saying they're better than the DVD.

I myself will probably check them out but i'll do it by renting. I do firmly believe screenshots tell a story and can help with spotting processed images. Not always but most of the time.

Nemesis may be DNRed for just the alien planet but not so bad that you lose the image quality and get into the botox waxy look of the other movies ( my post to MovieSwede ) It certainly looks miles better than the rest but it wouldn't surprise me if they just had to get the processing tools out for all of them.

I bet you they let trainees loose on the Trek movies. They are using some of their catalog releases to train people. ( i could imagine that )

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post #65 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by paulstachniak View Post

ugh. do not want.

i swear, if I see a hint of DNR in the new Star Trek film, I'll go ape s***.

anyways, its a shame. paramount has amazingly cost them my business for a second time this year with a Star Trek release.

I don't think you need to worry about JJ's film, Paramount's new releases have been rock solid.

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #66 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 08:01 AM
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Well I posted elsewhere that I wasn't really thrilled with First Contact but I got to tell ya I wasn't expecting much other than being cautiously optimistic about this whole set of movies so maybe I'm not disappointed per se. Maybe in the bottom middle third of catalog titles for First Contact IMHO.

The price was right which caused me to pull the trigger on the set and the fact it was cheaper to do that than buy the movies I most wanted.

I didn't get to Nemesis yet. I like that movie and I'm reading pretty good things so far about the quality.
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post #67 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 08:09 AM
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It's Star Trek, I had to buy them. I expected the same quality we got with the first films, and that's what I got. My hope is that my purchase is putting funds toward a future, better looking release.

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #68 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

I think it's a losing battle and the future of high definition content is mediocrity. Yes i throw in the towel and say you get what you deserve and since most of you will buy this crap you will indeed get more mediocrity.

It's not so much those here who will buy them (I am not, and I have a greater tolerance for DNR and EE than most here - I thought Tremors looked good). It's J6P that is driving this trend (who, by the way, outnumbers us 1000:1). From the beginning of the insane format war, people were clamoring for "mass acceptance". Well, they got it (or, at least, that's what the studios are gunning for). And along with mass acceptance among J6P comes mediocrity borne from cluelessness. Those who called for it have made our bed, and now we have to sleep in it. And I was criticized for wanting HD to remain a niche...

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post #69 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 08:25 AM
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Every time someone buys a DNRed title, god kills a puppy.

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #70 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 08:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

It's not so much those here who will buy them (I am not, and I have a greater tolerance for DNR and EE than most here - I thought Tremors looked good). It's J6P that is driving this trend (who, by the way, outnumbers us 1000:1). From the beginning of the insane format war, people were clamoring for "mass acceptance". Well, they got it (or, at least, that's what the studios are gunning for). And along with mass acceptance among J6P comes mediocrity borne from cluelessness. Those who called for it have made our bed, and now we have to sleep in it. And I was criticized for wanting HD to remain a niche...

I agree with you although i don't have to accept it or buy into it and i know i'm in a minority there but sometimes minorities win the battle. ( I see this as a long term battle ) Oh hell give me my towel back i'm not throwing it in just yet

I guess my comments although aimed at the forum were also intended at the average viewer who doesn't visit forums but i worded it wrongly.

I think i remember saying that this sort of thing would happen once the format war was over since the need to compete and produce a higher quality product than the rival format would vanish and then all the studio's needed to do was release a better than DVD product. That is indeed happening a lot with the catalog titles.

Is it really cheaper to just throw processing at a release rather than just release as is with regards whatever master they use ?

Oh and Shark....God isn't killing those poor puppies. Nooooo....Those poor puppies are watching these releases and jumping off high bridges as they are devastated that Cats Vs Dogs or Lassie Come Home might end up looking like this.
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post #71 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 08:35 AM
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I still don't really think it's mostly or entirely a consequence of "J6P" or anything like that. After all, apart from a few hiccups here and there, studios like Sony, Fox, and Buena Vista consistently turn out material that looks quite good. Amongst the major studios, it's really just Paramount and Warner (and to a smaller extent Universal) that have problems. And even then, it's not consistent, as we saw with Braveheart vs Gladiator.

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post #72 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

Oh and Shark....God isn't killing those poor puppies. Nooooo....Those poor puppies are watching these releases and jumping off high bridges as they are devastated that Cats Vs Dogs or Lassie Come Home might end up looking like this.

Great, Foxy...

Now you get to explain to my co-workers why I fell out of my chair laughing...


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post #73 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post


I think i remember saying that this sort of thing would happen once the format war was over since the need to compete and produce a higher quality product than the rival format would vanish and then all the studio's needed to do was release a better than DVD product. That is indeed happening a lot with the catalog titles.

Not buying it. We had bad releases during the format war, and we have bad releases now. The studios are ultimately competing for consumer dollar. If everyone stopped buying movies on Blu-Ray because of EE/DNR, the studios would stop using it. But look at the sales of Gladiator and TDK.

Paramount does seem to be the worst these days, but if the movies sell well, I don't see them stopping the practice of using DNR, as it appears there is a very small minority of people that will abstain from buying a title due to DNR. I do wish the studios would listen though and just stop using DNR/EE. At least excessively.
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post #74 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

Oh and Shark....God isn't killing those poor puppies. Nooooo....Those poor puppies are watching these releases and jumping off high bridges as they are devastated that Cats Vs Dogs or Lassie Come Home might end up looking like this.

Hahahahaha that's awesome LOL

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #75 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 09:32 AM
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If a Blu-ray movie were to be exhibited on a screen the size of a theater screen, how would it look? Not too great I'd imagine. 1k vs 4k there's no comparason To think that watching said movie on your home 50 incher is supposed to equal the theater viewing is just wishful thinking considering there are all sorts of display types, ie, rear projection, plasma etc., 1080i, 1080P, 60hertz, 120htz and individuals' user settings all being inconsistant. Also, have your eyes tested.
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post #76 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MikeCD View Post

If a Blu-ray movie were to be exhibited on a screen the size of a theater screen, how would it look? Not too great I'd imagine. 1k vs 4k there's no comparason To think that watching said movie on your home 50 incher is supposed to equal the theater viewing is just wishful thinking considering there are all sorts of display types, ie, rear projection, plasma etc., 1080i, 1080P, 60hertz, 120htz and individuals' user settings all being inconsistant. Also, have your eyes tested.

And let's be honest. Not all theaters are equal either. Some theaters use dim bulbs, dirty lenses, improperly calibrated audio, etc...

I have been to theaters that simply looked and sounded much worse than my setup at home. It really depends on a number of factors.

Personally I would rather deal with DNR/EE at home than a theater that has a dim bulb and audio that is either way too loud, or way too soft.

Not to mention people talking, texting, coughing, getting up in the middle of the movie, etc all the other distractions you face at a theater. I almost always have a better overall experience watching a movie in my HT than at the actual theater.
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post #77 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by MikeCD View Post

If a Blu-ray movie were to be exhibited on a screen the size of a theater screen, how would it look? Not too great I'd imagine. 1k vs 4k there's no comparason

Bluray is closer to 2K then 1K. Its not vertical resolution.

EDIT also add that alot of movies were filmed in 1440*810 to 1920*1080 and shown on a theatrical screen.

Star wars Ep2 Ep3
Miami Vice
Collateral
Sin City
Planet Terror
Once Upon a Time in Mexico
etc
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post #78 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

And let's be honest. Not all theaters are equal either. Some theaters use dim bulbs, dirty lenses, improperly calibrated audio, etc...

I have been to theaters that simply looked and sounded much worse than my setup at home. It really depends on a number of factors.

Personally I would rather deal with DNR/EE at home than a theater that has a dim bulb and audio that is either way too loud, or way too soft.

Not to mention people talking, texting, coughing, getting up in the middle of the movie, etc all the other distractions you face at a theater. I almost always have a better overall experience watching a movie in my HT than at the actual theater.

Same here and it just keeps getting worse. No respect for anything or anyone. If I have to get up and complain about it, I might as well leave as I simply won't be able to enjoy the film then.
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post #79 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 11:45 AM
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anyone interested in selling their copy of nemisis send me a pm . that's the only copy i'm interested in. thanks
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post #80 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Ten Star Trek movies and only Wrath Of Khan and Nemesis are the ones that has a very satisfactory picture quality. Film like and natural. Nemesis PQ is excellent and the AQ is reference.

The rest of the movies . . . . . . . . the resulting PQ is nothing short of an abomination. The amateurs and the ignorants in charge of the blu-ray transfers are hell bent in getting rid of film grain no matter what.


I personally don't think that either The Motion Picture or First Contact look like "abominations". Could they be better...yes. I don't deny that. But I do think they are worth a purchase (unlike, say, IV, VI or even IX), and I can't say I'm comfortable with the idea that it makes me an ignorant customer for doing so.
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post #81 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 12:57 PM
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Theres nothing terribly wrong with ANY of these films.

They are all about average for catalog titles of the 90's. With some EE and DNR but nothing too harsh that it takes you out of the film.

These aren't CLOSE, REPEAT ARE NOT CLOSE, to the hack job disaster that the first 6 movies were(Besides Part 2).

Criticize these if you want, but don't say you expected the same disaster as the first 6, and thats what you got. Because that simply isn't true.
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post #82 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mike171979 View Post

Theres nothing terribly wrong with ANY of these films.

They are all about average for catalog titles of the 90's. With some EE and DNR but nothing too harsh that it takes you out of the film.

These aren't CLOSE, REPEAT ARE NOT CLOSE, to the hack job disaster that the first 6 movies were(Besides Part 2).

Criticize these if you want, but don't say you expected the same disaster as the first 6, and thats what you got. Because that simply isn't true.

The thing is, judging by the very high resolution in some of those screencaps, this shouldn't be average for catalog titles of the 90s. These look like modern Braveheart-grade transfers that have been inexplicably smeared.
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post #83 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 01:19 PM
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I agree with that, they could, or should, have been better.

But it isn't a wax museum on the level of some of those shots from ST 4 or 6 that just absolutely floored me with their awfulness.

When I popped in these movies, and skipped through them, for the most part, I thought to myself, not too bad for most part.

I think some people just like bashing everything to the point where they aren't happy with anything other than absolute perfection, which is sad, because that person simply isn't going to live a healthy, happy life, because nothing in life is ever perfect.
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post #84 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Paramount does seem to be the worst these days, but if the movies sell well, I don't see them stopping the practice of using DNR, as it appears there is a very small minority of people that will abstain from buying a title due to DNR.

"These days"? Pfft. Paramount have been DNR'ing the heck out of their catalogue movies since at least the inception of HD DVD and Blu-ray, and the Trek movies are simply par for the course. But because their new releases are usually spec-freakin'-tacular, and because a couple of bad titles from Fox became benchmarks for DNR, Paramount's insidious crusade has gone unnoticed for far too long IMO.

I look at the Paramount catalogue titles on my shelf - movies that I love too much to deny myself even a flawed HD presentation - and aside from the inexplicably gorgeous Braveheart I'm struggling to find one that hasn't been noticeably fiddled with. Warriors, Untouchables, Trading Places, Coming To America, Top Gun, Face/Off, Black Rain, all 4 Jack Ryan flicks, the list goes on.
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post #85 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Nemesis is DNRed. In theaters the alien planet footage was almost as grainy as Saving Private Ryan.

Here its seems to be grainless.

What I meant was excessive DNR. Nemesis did not get any of that. There is no waxy artificial look on this movie. The DNR dial is not set to "10".
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post #86 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike171979 View Post

Theres nothing terribly wrong with ANY of these films.

They are all about average for catalog titles of the 90's. With some EE and DNR but nothing too harsh that it takes you out of the film.

These aren't CLOSE, REPEAT ARE NOT CLOSE, to the hack job disaster that the first 6 movies were(Besides Part 2).

Criticize these if you want, but don't say you expected the same disaster as the first 6, and thats what you got. Because that simply isn't true.

I'd disagree, but only on Star Trek Insurrection. Generations, First Contact and Nemesis are vastly superior to I, III, IV, V and VI but Insurrection was hit so incredibly hard by the DNR stick that it's about as bad.
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post #87 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 02:41 PM
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Bummed to hear Insurrection didn't come out well. I enjoy that one every bit as much as First Contact. Was gonna buy this, but I'm likely not going to unless there is a bargain basement sale.
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post #88 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Nemesis is DNRed. In theaters the alien planet footage was almost as grainy as Saving Private Ryan.

Here its seems to be grainless.

Maybe it was something with the print you watched at the theater?

I think the screenshots look very good in terms of minimal or no DNR.
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post #89 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Maybe it was something with the print you watched at the theater?

I think the screenshots look very good in terms of minimal or no DNR.

I actually recall the alien planet also being really grainy and I think it is even mentioned in the extras or in the audio commentary that it was done on purpose. May have to go take a listen sometime soon.

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post #90 of 212 Old 09-25-2009, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sharkcohen View Post

It's Star Trek, I had to buy them. I expected the same quality we got with the first films, and that's what I got. My hope is that my purchase is putting funds toward a future, better looking release.

Or keeping the DNR machine well oiled. When it comes to Paramount the consumers are really screwed.
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