The General (1926) comparison *PIX* - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 04:28 AM - Thread Starter
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My initial reaction the first time watching the HD transfer is

I have seen this movie from VHS, Laserdiscs and DVD. The restoration done is among the best I have ever seen especially on a film as old as this one. Of course due to the necessary use of DNR there are some instances you may notice some smearing of the image. But don't worry you won't see any "waxy" faces or Pattonized™ look or The Longest Day Claymation™ version we have been seeing lately from some blu-ray catalog releases.

The score is excellent. Its among the best ever composed for a film. This Blu-ray disc gives you the option to listen to different scores:

Carl Davis - 5.1 DTS-HD MA
Carl Davis - 2.0 PCM
Robert Israel -2.0 DD
Lee Erwin - 2.0 DD

I don't care which version is the best. They are all good


I thoroughly enjoyed this movie and even more so with the HD transfer. Buster Keaton's classic work should be a required viewing among film lovers. And for the first time viewers you will notice that most action-adventure-drama-comedy-special effects is very strongly influenced by this movie.

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post #2 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 04:28 AM - Thread Starter
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post #4 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 04:29 AM - Thread Starter
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post #6 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 04:29 AM - Thread Starter
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post #7 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 04:30 AM - Thread Starter
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post #8 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Blu-ray File size: 19.70 GB

Bitrate: 29.95 mbps


Code:
                                                                                                                Total   Video                                             
Title                                                           Codec   Length  Movie Size      Disc Size       Bitrate Bitrate Main Audio Track                          Secondary Audio Track
-----                                                           ------  ------- --------------  --------------  ------- ------- ------------------                        ---------------------
00009.MPLS                                                      AVC     1:18:52 21,170,878,464  31,922,558,444  35.79   29.95   DTS-HD Master 5.1 1816Kbps (48kHz/16-bit) LPCM 2.0 1536Kbps (48kHz/16-bit)
Code:
DISC INFO:

Disc Title:     THE GENERAL
Disc Size:      31,922,558,444 bytes
Protection:     AACS
BD-Java:        No
BDInfo:         0.5.3

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:                   00009.MPLS
Length:                 1:18:52 (h:m:s)
Size:                   21,170,878,464 bytes
Total Bitrate:          35.79 Mbps

VIDEO:

Codec                   Bitrate             Description     
-----                   -------             -----------     
MPEG-4 AVC Video        29950 kbps          1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1

AUDIO:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
DTS-HD Master Audio             English         1816 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 1816 kbps / 16-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 16-bit)
LPCM Audio                      English         1536 kbps       2.0 / 48 kHz / 1536 kbps / 16-bit
Dolby Digital Audio             English         224 kbps        2.0 / 48 kHz / 224 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio             English         224 kbps        2.0 / 48 kHz / 224 kbps

FILES:

Name            Time In         Length          Size            Total Bitrate   
----            -------         ------          ----            -------------   
00011.M2TS      0:00:00.000     0:00:08.008     5,283,840       5,279           
00010.M2TS      0:00:08.008     1:18:44.344     21,165,594,624  35,841          

CHAPTERS:

Number          Time In         Length          Avg Video Rate  Max 1-Sec Rate  Max 1-Sec Time  Max 5-Sec Rate  Max 5-Sec Time  Max 10Sec Rate  Max 10Sec Time  Avg Frame Size  Max Frame Size  Max Frame Time  
------          -------         ------          --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  
1               0:00:00.000     0:02:29.190     24,764 kbps     37,643 kbps     00:02:02.539    35,120 kbps     00:02:10.922    34,607 kbps     00:02:05.917    129,074 bytes   434,654 bytes   00:02:15.593    
2               0:02:29.190     0:03:09.189     29,403 kbps     40,156 kbps     00:02:42.120    39,062 kbps     00:02:38.116    34,053 kbps     00:02:38.116    153,293 bytes   338,275 bytes   00:02:44.122    
3               0:05:38.379     0:05:57.148     29,865 kbps     37,600 kbps     00:10:17.700    34,292 kbps     00:10:58.783    33,432 kbps     00:10:57.948    155,700 bytes   353,367 bytes   00:10:59.325    
4               0:11:35.528     0:03:44.891     30,288 kbps     36,881 kbps     00:12:24.577    35,476 kbps     00:12:05.057    35,054 kbps     00:12:40.426    157,906 bytes   465,730 bytes   00:12:44.680    
5               0:15:20.419     0:05:27.827     30,304 kbps     39,967 kbps     00:16:01.460    37,655 kbps     00:17:46.648    35,726 kbps     00:15:58.707    157,990 bytes   383,617 bytes   00:17:16.744    
6               0:20:48.247     0:02:51.379     31,881 kbps     38,026 kbps     00:20:51.792    35,776 kbps     00:23:08.470    35,269 kbps     00:23:04.508    166,214 bytes   354,958 bytes   00:23:07.594    
7               0:23:39.626     0:05:48.389     29,386 kbps     38,895 kbps     00:27:24.017    36,737 kbps     00:23:56.184    35,868 kbps     00:23:50.095    153,205 bytes   322,621 bytes   00:27:55.924    
8               0:29:28.016     0:03:58.112     30,718 kbps     38,565 kbps     00:30:52.725    34,744 kbps     00:29:51.456    33,977 kbps     00:31:21.504    160,149 bytes   373,205 bytes   00:31:59.751    
9               0:33:26.129     0:09:06.671     29,662 kbps     39,107 kbps     00:38:21.882    35,224 kbps     00:42:07.191    35,017 kbps     00:42:03.604    154,646 bytes   434,126 bytes   00:41:54.929    
10              0:42:32.800     0:07:29.699     30,566 kbps     37,264 kbps     00:49:28.256    34,296 kbps     00:42:35.427    33,317 kbps     00:47:14.581    159,358 bytes   391,656 bytes   00:47:32.432    
11              0:50:02.499     0:06:36.104     32,242 kbps     41,716 kbps     00:55:17.147    37,496 kbps     00:52:21.054    36,071 kbps     00:55:17.063    168,097 bytes   362,492 bytes   00:55:19.399    
12              0:56:38.603     0:04:03.034     30,688 kbps     38,635 kbps     00:59:19.430    37,187 kbps     01:00:35.882    35,467 kbps     01:00:31.628    159,995 bytes   359,251 bytes   00:58:03.646    
13              1:00:41.638     0:06:33.142     29,126 kbps     41,708 kbps     01:02:48.764    37,393 kbps     01:02:48.764    36,002 kbps     01:02:47.305    151,850 bytes   361,785 bytes   01:03:34.769    
14              1:07:14.780     0:01:35.261     30,436 kbps     37,364 kbps     01:07:26.667    34,767 kbps     01:08:06.874    34,015 kbps     01:08:01.869    158,680 bytes   373,181 bytes   01:08:04.497    
15              1:08:50.042     0:04:39.237     28,141 kbps     34,986 kbps     01:13:18.852    34,070 kbps     01:12:35.684    32,998 kbps     01:12:30.721    146,716 bytes   340,121 bytes   01:09:02.054    
16              1:13:29.279     0:05:23.072     29,865 kbps     41,646 kbps     01:16:15.237    36,442 kbps     01:18:43.885    34,560 kbps     01:18:40.549    155,721 bytes   395,885 bytes   01:18:46.179    

STREAM DIAGNOSTICS:

File            PID             Type            Codec           Language                Seconds                 Bitrate                 Bytes           Packets         
----            ---             ----            -----           --------                --------------          --------------          -------------   -----           
00011.M2TS      4113 (0x1011)   0x1B            AVC                                     7.925                   972                     962,837         5,320           
00011.M2TS      4352 (0x1100)   0x86            DTS-HD MA       eng (English)           7.925                   1,577                   1,562,080       9,763           
00011.M2TS      4353 (0x1101)   0x80            LPCM            eng (English)           7.925                   1,559                   1,544,328       9,612           
00011.M2TS      4354 (0x1102)   0x81            AC3             eng (English)           7.925                   227                     224,896         1,255           
00011.M2TS      4355 (0x1103)   0x81            AC3             eng (English)           7.925                   227                     224,896         1,255           
00010.M2TS      4113 (0x1011)   0x1B            AVC                                     4724.178                30,000                  17,715,606,542  96,346,748      
00010.M2TS      4352 (0x1100)   0x86            DTS-HD MA       eng (English)           4724.178                1,816                   1,072,602,892   6,586,884       
00010.M2TS      4353 (0x1101)   0x80            LPCM            eng (English)           4724.178                1,542                   910,853,716     5,669,214       
00010.M2TS      4354 (0x1102)   0x81            AC3             eng (English)           4724.178                224                     132,281,856     738,180         
00010.M2TS      4355 (0x1103)   0x81            AC3             eng (English)           4724.178                224                     132,281,856     738,180
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post #9 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 05:42 AM
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Oh my! This is simply incredible. Thanks a lot for the pix, and for thus pointing our attention to this transfer.
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post #10 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 06:02 AM
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wow, amazing restoration. definitely getting added to my after xmas buying list.
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post #11 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 07:25 AM
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Amazing! Even the dirt on the ground in the BD pic on post #6 has detail! Imagine "Metropolis" getting this sort of treatment/transfer for an eventual Blu-ray release (gasp! ). Newer movies with lacking HD transfers have no more (non-financial) excuses for looking like crap when a movie from 1926 can look this good.
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post #12 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 07:32 AM
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Double wow. Amazing. Thanks, again, for doing the work and posting these, Xylon.

Does anyone know if the shift to the more sepia-like tone was also done for fidelity/accuracy to original?

I know this happened with The Wizard of Oz about a decade ago (changing the B&W sequences to sepia).
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post #13 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 07:52 AM
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Curious to know which DVD version was used as the basis for the DVD shots. I would suspect (dunno for sure, not having seen it) that this is not the recent Kino DVD re-release from just last year (their Ultimate Edition). The improvement between those two would likely not be quite as drastic. Although now that I look at your captures again, I suppose if you blew the DVD image of that one up to blu-ray size maybe it still would. (Although I find it hard to believe.)

Watched this blu-ray a couple of weeks ago. Really did look sweet. (Never had seen the film previous to that.)
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post #14 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

My initial reaction the first time watching the HD transfer is

I have seen this movie from VHS, Laserdiscs and DVD. The restoration done is among the best I have ever seen especially on a film as old as this one. Of course due to the necessary use of DNR there are some instances you may notice some smearing of the image. But don't worry you won't see any "waxy" faces or Pattonized™ look or The Longest Day Claymation™ version we have been seeing lately from some blu-ray catalog releases.

I agree 100%! I had never seen any of Keaton's work (or any silent film ) so I decided to check it out first via Netflix streaming. It took all of 15 minutes to fall in love with this film. I stopped playback immediately because I wanted my first time seeing it in its entirety to be on Blu-ray. I was not disappointed.

Quote:
The score is excellent. Its among the best ever composed for a film. This Blu-ray disc gives you the option to listen to different scores:

Carl Davis - 5.1 DTS-HD MA
Carl Davis - 2.0 PCM
Robert Israel -2.0 DD
Lee Erwin - 2.0 DD

I don't care which version is the best. They are all good

I only listened to the Carl Davis score but it was sublime. If the other scores are as good then all I can say is wow!

You watch a Donnie Yen movie to watch what Donnie does best - kick-ass!
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post #15 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penman View Post

Does anyone know if the shift to the more sepia-like tone was also done for fidelity/accuracy to original?

Addressed in the original thread https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post17452052
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post #16 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 10:22 AM
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Good heavens.. that's incredible. Almost hard to believe there's that much detail to be had after seeing the DVD caps.

Welcome to Rivendell, Mister Anderson.
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post #17 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 02:14 PM
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This is how I've been hoping BD would be used. What an amazing rediscovery of one of the greatest films of all time. This is revelatory.

TV: LG OLED77C8PUA & LG OLED65B6P
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Amp: D-Sonic M3a-6100 & Classe CAV-500
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post #18 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 04:25 PM
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This title won't generate 1% the revenue Gladiator will, and yet it got a great new transfer.

Dillon: My men were in that chopper when it got hit! Hopper's orders were to go in and remove grain and the detail just disappeared.
Dutch: It didn't disappear. It was scrubbed alive!
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post #19 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 07:19 PM
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There is some obvious edge haloing going on and the contrast appears to be too high on the captures on DVDBeaver. Xylon, can you confirm?
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post #20 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 07:45 PM
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Seems like it's a great transfer underneath, but it really does look off in parts of the picture. Like a curious, harsh and very selective type of EE where only certain high-contrast edges get outlined in black (the flowers in the third shot, or the flag in the fifth.)

Is it noticeable/distracting during playback? It looks really odd to me in the captures, as if those objects were raised or pasted onto the film.
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post #21 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paku View Post

Seems like it's a great transfer underneath, but it really does look off in parts of the picture. Like a curious, harsh and very selective type of EE where only certain high-contrast edges get outlined in black (the flowers in the third shot, or the flag in the fifth.)

Is it noticeable/distracting during playback? It looks really odd to me in the captures, as if those objects were raised or pasted onto the film.

It looks exactly like the effect you get in Photoshop when you crank the radius up on the unsharp filter:

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post #22 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

There is some obvious edge haloing going on and the contrast appears to be too high on the captures on DVDBeaver. Xylon, can you confirm?

For as nice as the new Bd looks- and I agree with Xylon that it does look much better than the DVD(s)- this unfortunately also has a very pronounced digital signature to me because of the sharpening. The too hot whites and black ringed edges are not pleasant to look at.

To me, this is just as compromised as most of the DNR casualties that get slagged here are. Neither this, nor those, are as film-like as they should be. I will tell you though, and this is why I have defended some of those other titles in the past- it is much easier for me to overlook something like less resolved detail or missing or a suppressed grain structure, in other words something that is missing, than it is to overlook something that has been artificially added.
Neither is ideal, but the former is usually a far more pronounced defect to me than the latter to me.

A net plus because it is better than earlier dvd issues, but I see a lot of hypocrisy in championing this while slagging some of the other stuff for also being 'simply better than the DVD'.
Also- there were several DVD editions of The General from several labels. I don't know where Xylon got that one he used here, but the Image release which I have doesn't look anywhere near that bad. The old Kino probably did, which is why I upgraded to the Image one several years ago.

And I'll probably upgrade from the Kino Bd if someone else comes along and gets this truly right.
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post #23 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulidan View Post

A net plus because it is better than earlier dvd issues, but I see a lot of hypocrisy in championing this while slagging some of the other stuff for also being 'simply better than the DVD'.

To me, what makes something like this a whole lot better in comparison with a mess like Gladiator is that this transfer *looks pleasant to my eye* about 85% to 90% of the time. Gladiator and Gangs of New York, on the other hand, have almost no attributes worth praising.
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post #24 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 08:53 PM
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It doesn't look very analog to me, but obviously this disc wasn't produced with a major studio budget so I'll take what I can get.
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post #25 of 97 Old 12-05-2009, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post


Buster Keaton's classic work should be a required viewing among film lovers. And for the first time viewers you will notice that most action-adventure-drama-comedy-special effects is very strongly influenced by this movie.

I will strongly second this sentiment!
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post #26 of 97 Old 12-06-2009, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulidan View Post

For as nice as the new Bd looks- and I agree with Xylon that it does look much better than the DVD(s)- this unfortunately also has a very pronounced digital signature to me because of the sharpening. The too hot whites and black ringed edges are not pleasant to look at.
To me, this is just as compromised as most of the DNR casualties that get slagged here are.

I agree.
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post #27 of 97 Old 12-06-2009, 04:00 AM
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No silent track?
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post #28 of 97 Old 12-06-2009, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

No silent track?

It wouldn't have been in lossless anyway.



Steve W
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post #29 of 97 Old 12-06-2009, 07:36 PM
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I'm reminded of all the nincompoops in other forums around the internets who continue to claim that "no film made before 1990 or so can benefit from HD."

lol.

sad but true.
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post #30 of 97 Old 12-06-2009, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

It wouldn't have been in lossless anyway.



Steve W

I though my comment was funny, but yours took it to the next level in a good and funnier way. Which leads me to wonder...

a lossless mono silent track
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