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post #61 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sujay View Post

Yeah I believe they tamed down a lot of the LFE for the home theatre mix. I read that FilmMixer seems to have similar thoughts in another thread.

His comments as well as quite a few others are what have me curious/concerned. I hate when the .1 channel gets a conservative nod for a film like this, but that is just me. Curious to hear it though for myself.
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post #62 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 04:07 PM
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Sorry, I edited into my post "in certain sequences like hometree." It's not lacking in the overall mix at all, just certain areas that seemed more "powerful" in the theatres.

Like sb1 said, it's incredibly balanced, without losing a lot of its dynamic nature.
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post #63 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

His comments as well as quite a few others are what have me curious/concerned. I hate when the .1 channel gets a conservative nod for a film like this, but that is just me. Curious to hear it though for myself.

Don't miss my previous posts on the last page.

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post #64 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

I wouldn't really call it conservative. I'd call it balanced, which is the main thing for me in any track. There is no certain aspect that calls attention to itself here, other than awesomeness. Truly impressive for me.


Sounds good. I will throw out my opinion after I watch it.........wish I could do it tonight!
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post #65 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Sounds good. I will throw out my opinion after I watch it.........wish I could do it tonight!

Well, I'll say this: You already know from the movie thread that I thought the film itself left a little to be desired, so the fact that I'm this impressed with the video and audio track should tell you something. Sure, there are more impressive LFE tracks out there, but it's the overall spectacular balance in this one that gets me. Think 500hp Mustang versus 300+ hp Porsch 911. One of them does something good, while the other does everything good.

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post #66 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

Not to dispute you or FM's claim's, but if it's tamed, it's not apparent on my system. I have a far more impressive sounding movie than I saw in the theater, that's for sure.

That is good to know. I am surprised though at the lack of <25hz material considering some of the action in this film, at least according to what is being discussed/shown in the bass thread Figured/hoped there would be more deep stuff. Oh well..........sounds like it is still a killer track, and look forward to it I hope tom.
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post #67 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

Well, I'll say this: You already know from the movie thread that I thought the film itself left a little to be desired, so the fact that I'm this impressed with the video and audio track should tell you something. Sure, there are more impressive LFE tracks out there, but it's the overall spectacular balance in this one that gets me. Think 500hp Mustang versus 300+ hp Porsch 911. One of them does something good, while the other does everything good.


I hear you..........that is the way I feel about Star Trek Love that track!
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post #68 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I hear you..........that is the way I feel about Star Trek Love that track!

That's a very good comparison....this track to ST. They both have an overall finesse to them, without standing out in one area. Although, if you watch it and don't think it sounds good, now I'll feel bad.

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post #69 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

That's a very good comparison....this track to ST. They both have an overall finesse to them, without standing out in one area. Although, if you watch it and don't think it sounds good, now I'll feel bad.


No need to feel bad man! This stuff is so subjective and there are so many variables as far as the conclusions that each of us come to. Chances are I will love it though considering your favorable comparison to Star Trek. Even if I do happen to find things I dont like, I cant imagine they could be anything but minor considering all the praise this one is getting

Speaking of LFE, the pack of girls are watching The Haunting right now......the house is going nuts!
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post #70 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmishFury View Post

it just looks that bad compared to the bluray because DVD just can't properly cut it for a movie as sharp and detailed as this one

DVD does not cut it for anything shot on >= 16mm film. The resolution is not there to do it justice.
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post #71 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

the pack of girls are watching The Haunting right now......the house is going nuts!

Great LFE, but I like how you're openly admitting you're clearly outnumbered by the female species. I only have the wife and one daughter, but I know the feeling all the same.

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post #72 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 04:35 PM
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Man I still have yet to seen Avatar on Blu Ray but even those screen caps are awesome.

Pigeon, winged cloak of grey, In the city's hellish maw, One glance and you fly away, Your grace holds me in awe.
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post #73 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jarrod_38 View Post

Man I still have yet to seen Avatar on Blu Ray but even those screen caps are awesome.

I'm not really a video guy, but the first thing I noticed was the great picture. Truly a disc that can show off BD's capabilities to the average "friend over for movie night".

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post #74 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

I'm not really a video guy, but the first thing I noticed was the great picture. Truly a disc that can show off BD's capabilities to the average "friend over for movie night".

Tell me about it. I was watching Up a few weeks ago and my mom came downstairs to do laundry and was just amazed how awesome the picture quality was.

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post #75 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 05:03 PM
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I just watched it today in our professionally calibrated, top end JBL Synthesis theater at reference. The LFE was extremely strong to the point that I was wondering how most other systems would handle it at all without compression or distortion. Not sure whats happening for some to be reporting otherwise.

Now that THX demo at the end however was LFE on a whole other scale.
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post #76 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MovieTime View Post

I just watched it today in our professionally calibrated, top end JBL Synthesis theater at reference. The LFE was extremely strong to the point that I was wondering how most other systems would handle it at all without compression or distortion. Not sure whats happening for some to be reporting otherwise.

I'm merely using a Klipsch THX/SVS Ultra setup, so I can't imagine how it sounds on that. Would you please elaborate on what you mean by "our" professionally calibrated setup?

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post #77 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

Great LFE, but I like how you're openly admitting you're clearly outnumbered by the female species. I only have the wife and one daughter, but I know the feeling all the same.


Oh man, I admit it 4 vs 1 tonight! I could use some reinforcements!
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post #78 of 247 Old 04-24-2010, 06:15 PM
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I too felt the LFE was not "in your face", not "pants flapping in the breeze", which is what popcorn action flicks nowadays seem to do. I don't think it's bad. It's actually a little more real, more balanced, with the LFE not being overwhelming.

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post #79 of 247 Old 04-25-2010, 01:06 AM
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The SVS is a great sub. I'm also using their cylindrical Ultra-13 subs behind the screenwall due to space limitations (The JBL 18" monsters are too deep). I haven't heard the Bluray yet on any system but mine so now I'm curious to hear it somewhere else. When I have time, I'll check the SPL around 20hz during the hometree destruction scene. That scene ranked up there with other very clear, articulate LFE heavy scenes from other films like the final truck/jet sequence in Live Free or Die Hard. In general, even during flight scenes, the flapping of wings shook the floor and my room. I would agree the bass is not overwhelming and very clean, but when it needs to be there, I felt it big time in line with most other films I've been watching. If it had been any stronger it would have been overkill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

I'm merely using a Klipsch THX/SVS Ultra setup, so I can't imagine how it sounds on that. Would you please elaborate on what you mean by "our" professionally calibrated setup?


By calibrated, I mean the Synthesis systems all use a DSS Audio 112 band Parametric EQ. It's calibrated by one of JBL's engineers (not by a dealer, we are the dealer) using 8 Mics placed in the room and professional calibration equipment and software. It takes the majority of a day and when it's done, the overall balance and response at all frequencies within the room is as about as close to perfect as you're going to get (it better be for a 12K+ EQ).
It's not automatic and requires a sound engineer to tune the room.

There is one big difference I can think of off the top of my head between this kind of setup vs. the most common setup. Because the EQ handles 100% of the crossover duties, all other crossovers are disabled. The EQ has all the specs and crossover points of all the speakers in the system.
The crossover and high/low pass filtering on the subwoofer is completely disabled. Everything on the sub is set to be completely off with the EQ handling the duties. So whereas most with the same sub will be using the internal filters, crossover and tune setting on the back of the sub, all of that is disabled in my case and the far more capable EQ is doing the work. It's much more of a high-end commercial cinema configuration which use passive components coupled with extremely accurate EQs to calibrate the space.

When we calibrated the system, we actually originally started by trying to leave the tune setting on the SVS at 20hz on the sub. What we found is that the internal electronics of the sub were adding a solid 8-10db of boost around that frequency creating an exagerated output at that freq, then a major roll-off afterward. So we completely shut it off, then used the EQ to insure it was balanced and not boosted at that freq, then rolled it off lower. This could have nothing to do with the LFE "issue" in Avatar, but it's a guess. It's the one major difference in the signal chain between most systems and one with such an EQ handling the crossover duties instead. It helps insure the original signal hits the speaker as intended without any other external processing possibly mucking it up. So while a subwoofer's electronics have the opportunity to take a signal that it feels is too hot and modify it to protect itself, my subwoofer does not have that option. The signal gets from the EQ to the sub itself without its internal electronics interfering.

While we all notice a subwoofer bottoming out (which is rare in the case for an SVS), what we can't always notice is the internal electronics/eq in a sub clipping/compressing the signal before output or artificially boosting the signal at certain frequencies to create a certain type of sound. For every sub I see EQd before we shut off its internal processing, they all do something different, but they all do it to varying degress unless they are passive (which most aren't). If anything, it's an LFE signal that is not low, but coming in too hot that clips those electronics and lowers the output from the sub, producing a perfectly good sounding, but diminished in output result. And rightfully, its unfair to expect the electronics in a sub to do what a pro grade EQ does.

I've had the fortune of seeing the before and after graphs of various systems. I wouldn't name names, but I've been apalled at some of the results I have seen on EQ graphs when looking at how inaccurate and poor of a job some audio processors do with their internal crossovers. You set them to 80hz and run the test, only to see that the actual results vary considerably, not just in unison but from speaker to speaker. We assume that when we set our processors to cross over at 80hz, that's what we are getting and it was an eye opening experience to see how often, sometimes with some expensive brands, that wasn't the case. By the same example, internal amps and their respective electronics within the subwoofer are not always of the highest caliber, and they too can cause the same alteration in the signal. It's the reason all Synthesis components are passive including the subs allowing the EQ to control it. Even their speakers use external, passive crossovers with a separate EQ channel for the high freq horns vs mid-low woofers. It's like using a separate amp channel to power the high freq. horn on your Klipsch, then another to power the woofer, completely eliminating the crossover in your speaker in the process.

I recall SVS used to have a passive version which I loved, but I don't believe they make it anymore. I love SVS subs, hence I use them as well, but we had to disable their internal electronics to get the freq response we wanted with the EQ. And that is a great, great sub near the top of the food chain, so imagine the large majority of others. Once again, I'm only speculating, but it would follow that I may get very different results in my scenario than someone using the internal electronics within the sub itself. The before/after results on the graph revealed exactly that during the calibration. There is possibly that equivalent difference in the response of the other speakers as well, it's just much more difficult to hear it. So all my assumptions are purely speculative. It could be many audio processors are not passing the intended LFE signal through, or it could be sub electronics.... or yet something else we haven't thought of. I do know that the decibel level on my sub is perfectly matched to the output of the rest of my system, and at reference there are a handful of scenes in Avatar (another example is the scene where they try to transfer Grace's body to her Avatar) that almost feel like the floor is going to drop out. Some really high SPL, low freq. bass.


I do promise to try out some scenes next week with an SPL and report what I find. As you can see by my post count I don't post often as I'm very busy with work, but I will be watching it again sometime next week and will definitely get some numbers at reference. I'm as curious as you are to know. If you did the same, we could compare them. That THX trailer at the end pounded my room harder than I have heard from anything in a long while... literally fear inspiring. It caught me by surprise and I was actually expecting the subs to bottom out or distort, but they didn't. Didn't someone mention diapers?
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post #80 of 247 Old 04-25-2010, 02:29 AM
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Outstanding,enjoyed it far more this time around without the dark 3D picture.Dont get me wrong the 3D looked great but i prefer the extra clarity that i got on the disc.I had to keep lifting my 3D glasses up at the cinema just to be able to see better,and this totally distracted me from what was going on.....

I had the same problem with A CHRISTMAS CAROL, that movie was sooo dark.
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post #81 of 247 Old 04-25-2010, 04:31 AM - Thread Starter
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post #82 of 247 Old 04-25-2010, 05:12 AM
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Lol omg a nipple !!!!
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post #83 of 247 Old 04-25-2010, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmishFury View Post

yeah it's good by DVD standards... doing the "resize the bluray shot" method of comparison the differences between a bluray shot resized to 720x480 then back to 1920x1080 and the upscaled dvd shots in the thread are small enough to be explained away by compression

it just looks that bad compared to the bluray because DVD just can't properly cut it for a movie as sharp and detailed as this one

I think this DVD is VERY good by DVD standards. I would say it is one of the best DVD transfers I 've ever seen. Which is even more surprising given its low bitrate [around 5Mbs]. Of course the absence of noise in the video helps a lot.

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post #84 of 247 Old 04-25-2010, 08:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jurid001 View Post

I think this DVD is VERY good by DVD standards. I would say it is one of the best DVD transfers I 've ever seen. Which is even more surprising given its low bitrate [around 5Mbs]. Of course the absence of noise in the video helps a lot.

It really is a great DVD transfer
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post #85 of 247 Old 04-25-2010, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

DVD does not cut it for anything shot on >= 16mm film. The resolution is not there to do it justice.

You should not underestimate DVD. On good equipment [that is with a proper scaler like Realta], results can rival an average movie theater experience [I guess it also tells us that the quality of the average movie theater is, well, average]. We also know that in an average theater, the achievable resolution is about 700 lines [vertical], and it's in analog, so a good digital source of 480p can stand up to it pretty well [or 360p for scope movies].

In a similar fashion, people seem to keep finding on the BD more detail than they saw in Imax [the frame is several times larger than the 35mm], and I am not talking about Avatar here which was shot in BD resolution to start with [2K camera], but about The Dark Knight which partially was shot in Imax.

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post #86 of 247 Old 04-25-2010, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

DVD does not cut it for anything shot on >= 16mm film. The resolution is not there to do it justice.

Agreed. BD has six times the pixel resolution as well as many other PQ benefits over DVD. Huge differences.
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post #87 of 247 Old 04-25-2010, 09:25 AM
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Great picture...wish I liked the movie.
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post #88 of 247 Old 04-25-2010, 09:37 AM
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Lol omg a nipple !!!!

now you've done it xylon by finding a single frame with an alien nipple bored/crazy parents everywhere will demand the rating be changed for the sake of the children :P


Quote:
Originally Posted by jurid001 View Post

I think this DVD is VERY good by DVD standards. I would say it is one of the best DVD transfers I 've ever seen. Which is even more surprising given its low bitrate [around 5Mbs]. Of course the absence of noise in the video helps a lot.

i did a quick check (first and probably only time the DVD will ever be taken out of the case) it's actually 6.19Mbps average
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post #89 of 247 Old 04-25-2010, 09:59 AM
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I watched this last night, and would say that it is probably the best BD I have seen yet in terms of PQ.

Anyone else notice that the "jaggies" that are present on the Fox logo at the beginning on all other Fox titles were noticeably missing on Avatar?!
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post #90 of 247 Old 04-25-2010, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmishFury View Post

i did a quick check (first and probably only time the DVD will ever be taken out of the case) it's actually 6.19Mbps average

that must be with sound. video is about 5Mbs

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