RoboCop (1987) - Unreleased Sony vs Fox Blu-ray comparison PIX - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 73 Old 07-30-2010, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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18.50Mbps MPEG-2 | Blu-ray | USA | MGM / Sony | R-rated theatrical | 2006-08-15 (Unreleased)
20.74Mbps MPEG-2 | Blu-ray | USA | MGM / Fox | Uncut | 2007-10-09

Mouseovers here

..... Sony Blu-ray ....... vs Fox Blu-ray
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The Sony disc uses the same master as Sky HD broadcasts. It's authored as 1080i60 but is actually a soft telecine, like DVD (thus the 23.976 reported by the decoder on the screenshots). I wasn't aware this was actually possible on Blu-ray -- there's certainly no reason to do it.

I can't say how I obtained the Sony version. Suffice it to say that the measured disc size is around 10MB too small.

Code:
                                                                                                                Total   Video                                             
Title                                                           Codec   Length  Movie Size      Disc Size       Bitrate Bitrate Main Audio Track                          Secondary Audio Track
-----                                                           ------  ------- --------------  --------------  ------- ------- ------------------                        ---------------------
RoboCop (Unreleased Sony Version)                               MPEG-2  1:42:46 20,288,636,928  23,834,148,052  26.32   18.50   LPCM 5.1 4608Kbps (48kHz/16-bit)          DD AC3 5.1 640Kbps
Code:
DISC INFO:

Disc Size:      23,834,148,052 bytes
Protection:     AACS
BD-Java:        No
BDInfo:         0.5.4

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:                   00022.MPLS
Length:                 1:42:46 (h:m:s)
Size:                   20,288,636,928 bytes
Total Bitrate:          26.32 Mbps

VIDEO:

Codec                   Bitrate             Description     
-----                   -------             -----------     
MPEG-2 Video            18500 kbps          1080i / 29.970 fps / 16:9

AUDIO:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
LPCM Audio                      English         4608 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 4608 kbps / 16-bit
Dolby Digital Audio             English         640 kbps        5.1 / 48 kHz / 640 kbps / DN -4dB
Dolby Digital Audio             French          640 kbps        5.1 / 48 kHz / 640 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio             English         192 kbps        2.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -6dB / Dolby Surround

SUBTITLES:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
Presentation Graphics           English         41.710 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           English         53.638 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Chinese         34.585 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           French          40.078 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Korean          28.136 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Portuguese      44.414 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Spanish         42.174 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Thai            35.098 kbps                     

FILES:

Name            Time In         Length          Size            Total Bitrate   
----            -------         ------          ----            -------------   
00001.M2TS      0:00:00.000     1:01:09.265     12,186,568,704  26,570          
00022.M2TS      1:01:09.265     0:41:37.495     8,102,068,224   25,953          

CHAPTERS:

Number          Time In         Length          Avg Video Rate  Max 1-Sec Rate  Max 1-Sec Time  Max 5-Sec Rate  Max 5-Sec Time  Max 10Sec Rate  Max 10Sec Time  Avg Frame Size  Max Frame Size  Max Frame Time  
------          -------         ------          --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  
1               0:00:00.000     0:06:40.700     20,383 kbps     32,172 kbps     00:01:37.347    28,658 kbps     00:01:35.845    28,041 kbps     00:00:35.785    106,250 bytes   394,758 bytes   00:06:40.566    
2               0:06:40.700     0:07:17.170     17,898 kbps     30,231 kbps     00:12:01.587    24,366 kbps     00:11:58.134    22,877 kbps     00:11:52.461    93,320 bytes    426,482 bytes   00:08:26.289    
3               0:13:57.870     0:03:25.204     18,980 kbps     30,117 kbps     00:16:21.847    23,899 kbps     00:16:19.228    22,906 kbps     00:16:42.618    98,951 bytes    421,137 bytes   00:17:02.688    
4               0:17:23.075     0:08:45.157     17,469 kbps     27,508 kbps     00:25:33.281    23,168 kbps     00:25:05.871    20,951 kbps     00:25:02.584    91,079 bytes    386,576 bytes   00:24:50.405    
5               0:26:08.233     0:07:47.834     18,836 kbps     33,906 kbps     00:26:09.317    28,074 kbps     00:26:23.198    24,114 kbps     00:26:18.577    98,199 bytes    642,933 bytes   00:27:19.304    
6               0:33:56.067     0:06:04.797     16,722 kbps     29,150 kbps     00:35:07.638    23,446 kbps     00:35:04.385    21,511 kbps     00:35:01.382    87,177 bytes    421,153 bytes   00:34:11.249    
7               0:40:00.865     0:04:42.515     22,174 kbps     28,855 kbps     00:42:24.708    25,969 kbps     00:42:02.186    25,221 kbps     00:40:19.950    115,617 bytes   357,117 bytes   00:43:37.448    
8               0:44:43.380     0:04:31.337     18,309 kbps     27,370 kbps     00:49:13.734    21,954 kbps     00:45:37.851    21,064 kbps     00:45:32.846    95,446 bytes    370,873 bytes   00:49:14.534    
9               0:49:14.718     0:08:01.480     18,403 kbps     32,390 kbps     00:57:15.215    26,321 kbps     00:54:29.883    25,185 kbps     00:54:24.928    95,943 bytes    389,495 bytes   00:50:51.498    
10              0:57:16.199     0:03:53.066     19,049 kbps     34,093 kbps     01:01:05.278    27,137 kbps     01:01:04.243    23,862 kbps     00:57:17.884    99,311 bytes    371,490 bytes   00:57:56.422    
11              1:01:09.265     0:06:43.936     17,608 kbps     30,042 kbps     01:04:24.043    24,963 kbps     01:03:46.756    24,370 kbps     01:03:40.500    91,789 bytes    418,916 bytes   01:03:26.402    
12              1:07:53.202     0:07:34.720     19,448 kbps     33,477 kbps     01:10:38.167    25,959 kbps     01:08:16.892    25,378 kbps     01:08:11.771    101,390 bytes   470,243 bytes   01:10:40.085    
13              1:15:27.923     0:06:46.639     19,032 kbps     30,071 kbps     01:18:10.235    25,623 kbps     01:18:39.815    25,114 kbps     01:18:39.681    99,231 bytes    404,820 bytes   01:20:42.687    
14              1:22:14.562     0:11:07.333     18,716 kbps     32,128 kbps     01:26:06.461    30,155 kbps     01:26:19.357    29,674 kbps     01:26:14.352    97,567 bytes    449,145 bytes   01:28:36.160    
15              1:33:21.896     0:03:10.957     22,484 kbps     32,904 kbps     01:36:31.218    30,402 kbps     01:36:27.214    30,003 kbps     01:36:22.209    117,205 bytes   424,699 bytes   01:33:32.456    
16              1:36:32.853     0:06:13.906     13,633 kbps     22,907 kbps     01:39:23.891    22,416 kbps     01:39:20.170    22,089 kbps     01:39:15.299    71,088 bytes    245,917 bytes   01:39:24.058    

STREAM DIAGNOSTICS:

File            PID             Type            Codec           Language                Seconds                 Bitrate                 Bytes           Packets         
----            ---             ----            -----           --------                --------------          --------------          -------------   -----           
00001.M2TS      4113 (0x1011)   0x02            MPEG-2                                  3669.199                18,670                  8,563,083,895   46,589,877      
00001.M2TS      4352 (0x1100)   0x81            AC3             eng (English)           3669.199                640                     293,542,400     1,719,975       
00001.M2TS      4353 (0x1101)   0x80            LPCM            eng (English)           3669.199                4,614                   2,116,434,936   11,741,664      
00001.M2TS      4354 (0x1102)   0x81            AC3             fra (French)            3669.199                640                     293,542,400     1,719,975       
00001.M2TS      4355 (0x1103)   0x81            AC3             eng (English)           3669.199                192                     88,062,720      573,325         
00001.M2TS      4608 (0x1200)   0x90            PGS             eng (English)           3669.199                50                      23,079,818      130,213         
00001.M2TS      4609 (0x1201)   0x90            PGS             fra (French)            3669.199                48                      22,089,271      124,743         
00001.M2TS      4610 (0x1202)   0x90            PGS             spa (Spanish)           3669.199                51                      23,284,835      131,379         
00001.M2TS      4611 (0x1203)   0x90            PGS             por (Portuguese)        3669.199                54                      24,759,869      139,437         
00001.M2TS      4612 (0x1204)   0x90            PGS             zho (Chinese)           3669.199                42                      19,249,414      109,569         
00001.M2TS      4613 (0x1205)   0x90            PGS             kor (Korean)            3669.199                34                      15,530,612      89,324          
00001.M2TS      4614 (0x1206)   0x90            PGS             tha (Thai)              3669.199                42                      19,264,218      109,714         
00001.M2TS      4615 (0x1207)   0x90            PGS             eng (English)           3669.199                65                      29,975,613      169,551         
00022.M2TS      4113 (0x1011)   0x02            MPEG-2                                  2497.328                18,251                  5,697,203,837   30,997,936      
00022.M2TS      4352 (0x1100)   0x81            AC3             eng (English)           2497.328                640                     199,800,320     1,170,705       
00022.M2TS      4353 (0x1101)   0x80            LPCM            eng (English)           2497.328                4,615                   1,440,555,116   7,991,984       
00022.M2TS      4354 (0x1102)   0x81            AC3             fra (French)            2497.328                640                     199,800,320     1,170,705       
00022.M2TS      4355 (0x1103)   0x81            AC3             eng (English)           2497.328                192                     59,940,096      390,235         
00022.M2TS      4608 (0x1200)   0x90            PGS             eng (English)           2497.328                29                      9,071,876       51,204          
00022.M2TS      4609 (0x1201)   0x90            PGS             fra (French)            2497.328                28                      8,804,509       49,727          
00022.M2TS      4610 (0x1202)   0x90            PGS             spa (Spanish)           2497.328                30                      9,224,459       52,076          
00022.M2TS      4611 (0x1203)   0x90            PGS             por (Portuguese)        2497.328                30                      9,476,640       53,441          
00022.M2TS      4612 (0x1204)   0x90            PGS             zho (Chinese)           2497.328                24                      7,410,314       42,215          
00022.M2TS      4613 (0x1205)   0x90            PGS             kor (Korean)            2497.328                20                      6,158,032       35,424          
00022.M2TS      4614 (0x1206)   0x90            PGS             tha (Thai)              2497.328                25                      7,791,007       44,339          
00022.M2TS      4615 (0x1207)   0x90            PGS             eng (English)           2497.328                36                      11,370,555      64,599

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post #2 of 73 Old 07-30-2010, 06:04 PM
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I was in a store one day and saw the Sony copy of Robocop and immediately grabbed it. I couldn't believe that it somehow hit shelves.
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post #3 of 73 Old 07-30-2010, 06:09 PM
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MMmm. Typical Sony tricks. Boosted contrast while causing clipping and added sharpening. All seems rather familiar. Ghostbusters, cough.

I hate contrast boosting, yet few call foul on that.

Neither are particularly compelling but if I had to choose it would have to be the Fox release.

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post #4 of 73 Old 07-30-2010, 06:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

Neither are particularly compelling but if I had to choose it would have to be the Fox release.

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Agreed.
The Sony looks horrid.
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post #5 of 73 Old 07-30-2010, 06:47 PM
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Contrast boosting sucks ass.

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #6 of 73 Old 07-30-2010, 06:48 PM
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Are we bored this week? Why are we comparing versions that are 4 and 3 years old?

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #7 of 73 Old 07-30-2010, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkcohen View Post

Are we bored this week? Why are we comparing versions that are 4 and 3 years old?

Guess so. Still, I'd kill for a bad ass Robocop Bluray.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #8 of 73 Old 07-30-2010, 07:31 PM
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My son is an expert on Robocop and he thinks the Sony version is clearer and has better contrast.

He also says it needs to be remastered.
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post #9 of 73 Old 07-30-2010, 07:39 PM
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To me, the audio of the Robocop disc is the true crime (but I realize it's old).

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #10 of 73 Old 07-30-2010, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlsmith View Post

My son is an expert on Robocop and he thinks the Sony version is clearer and has better contrast.

He also says it needs to be remastered.

Clearer meaning edge enhancement. It's all over the place on the Sony release. And the Sony version has boosted contrast levels, blowing out certain highlights such as the sky in comparison #2.

The Fox version has obviously been scrubbed of grain giving it an unnatural look in regards to fine details.

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post #11 of 73 Old 07-30-2010, 08:05 PM
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Both are poo. Robocop is awesome and needs a 4k remaster.
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post #12 of 73 Old 07-30-2010, 08:20 PM
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Both versions are poor but the gamma and colors on the Fox version are beyond screwed up. A new remaster is in order.
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post #13 of 73 Old 07-30-2010, 09:16 PM
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Criterion need to release their version on Bluray.
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post #14 of 73 Old 07-30-2010, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkcohen View Post

Are we bored this week? Why are we comparing versions that are 4 and 3 years old?

Why not? It's helpful for those always wondering exactly what the pulled Sony looked like and might save someone from spending an insane sum for it on eBay or something. This is actually one of the more interesting comparisons I've seen here in months.

I have the Sony (French-Canadian cover from Amazon's Marketplace), on smaller displays it's certainly preferable to the Fox, despite the issues.
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post #15 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 02:22 AM
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Glad Sony pulled the plug!

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post #16 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

To me, the audio of the Robocop disc is the true crime (but I realize it's old).

Age should really be a consideration given the great job done for The Terminator which is even older and was originally mono.

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post #17 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

Age should really be a consideration given the great job done for The Terminator which is even older and was originally mono.

The 5.1 remix for Terminator is an abomination IMO. It should stay as mono.

At least Robo had a Dolby Stereo original to work from.
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post #18 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 05:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damnationdoormat View Post

Why not? It's helpful for those always wondering exactly what the pulled Sony looked like and might save someone from spending an insane sum for it on eBay or something. This is actually one of the more interesting comparisons I've seen here in months.

I have the Sony (French-Canadian cover from Amazon's Marketplace), on smaller displays it's certainly preferable to the Fox, despite the issues.

^this I always wanted to see what they looked like compared.
I have the UK fox disc
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post #19 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 10:05 AM
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Both look like old transfers to start with. The Sony is boosted and edge enhanced to hell, and the Fox disc has been so thoroughly scrubbed that it looks like a blurry DVD upconvert.

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post #20 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 10:53 AM
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Both look like ****! I hope but doubt the Robocop trilogy gets a new master on Robocop 1.
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post #21 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 11:22 AM
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Which version was released in the UK?
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post #22 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenUK View Post

Which version was released in the UK?

I believe the Fox transfer was used worldwide.

I have them both, and they both have their weaknesses. On the whole, I prefer the colors and grain of the Sony release. In the Sony version, Robocop is grey, not blue like the Fox version. Edit: I went back and checked. It's actually the other way round. Robo is proper grey on the Fox release. Mea Culpa.

It occurs to me that the grey Robo most closely resembles the way he looked on my previous VHS-s, laserdiscs and the Criterion editions (DVD and LD). I never saw this movie theatrically, so I have no idea which version is "correct".

I remember them making a deal of it in interviews promoting Robocop 2, that he would at last appear blue-ish in the sequel. I believe they said the Robocop 2 look was closer to the way the suit appeared on set. I take this to mean that even though the suit had a bluish, metallic tinge all along, the photography on the first one made him appear grey. If that is so, then grey is the proper color for Robocop 1. By "proper" I mean most true to the theatrical colour timing. Only when Robocop was remastered for DVD did he start to look blue there as well.

Check out these caps from the DVDs over at DVDbeaver:

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post #23 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 01:59 PM
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Many thanks for the comparisons msgohan. Been wanting to see how this mythical Sony disc stacked up against the Fox version for aaaaaaages.
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post #24 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 02:09 PM
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Wonder what we'll get in the Trilogy pack this fall?

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post #25 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 03:22 PM
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The Sony disc is unwatchable. I received a review screener before Sony pulled the release. I still have it.

The colors on the Sony disc are not accurate by any stretch. Both discs stem from the same DVD transfer with severely oversaturated colors. Robo is blue on the Sony disc more often than he's gray. Flesh tones in many scenes are ridiculously orange. If the colors look less awful on the Sony disc than the Fox, that's only because Sony boosted the contrast afterwards, which has the effect of washing out the colors and dilluting the oversaturation. They're still wrong, though.

Fox decided to leave the contrast alone, but smother on some DNR instead.

The Sony disc has a terrible MPEG-2 encode. The contrast boost and edge enhancement bring out noise like you wouldn't believe. Comparison #5 above is a good example of that. Look at how blown out the window is, and how blocky the grain looks. It's even more ghastly in motion, with pixelated blocks buzzing all over the screen.

Both discs are terrible. If I have to pick one, I'll go with the Fox. But that's not saying much.

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post #26 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 03:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BenUK View Post

Which version was released in the UK?

I think its the Fox, will take a cap tomorrow.

Nothing beats the Criterion DVD for me
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post #27 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Both are poo. Robocop is awesome and needs a 4k remaster.

And Robocop 2 as well.
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post #28 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sumawo13 View Post

And Robocop 2 as well.

I always thougt RoboCop2 needed a Zero-K master.
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post #29 of 73 Old 07-31-2010, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

I always thougt RoboCop2 needed a Zero-K master.

LOL and RoboCop3 should never have been made

Mark Techer

I love my Constant Image Height system!
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post #30 of 73 Old 08-01-2010, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Both discs stem from the same DVD transfer with severely oversaturated colors.

Both discs are terrible. If I have to pick one, I'll go with the Fox. But that's not saying much.

Far be it from me to disagree with a fellow LD enthusiast, but I do believe these are separate beasts. The framing on the two discs are so different, that I don't think they could be the same transfer.

... And I pick the Sony disc, because the softness of the Fox one drove me up the wall. I'll take the perceived sharpness, EE and all, over the blurry Fox disc. The lesser of two evils....
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