The Leopard Comparison - BFI/Criterion Master vs. 2010 Restoration - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 88 Old 12-10-2010, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano16 View Post
A few things about the two restorations of "The Leopard".

According to Lee Kline at Criterion, one of the suggestions Rotunno made when they worked on their DVD of the film was to pull out the yellows in the image. Yellow, he told them, was a significant color in the look of "The Leopard", it was all around, especially in the earth of Sicily. So, Criterion went with this idea and gave their version a warmer look than the film previously had. Some viewers liked this new 'glow' that "The Leopard" sported, while others thought that Criterion went too far, and had erred on the side of excess.

The Film Foundation restoration was supervised by Martin Scorsese, who is a great fan of "The Leopard", and happens to own one of the few pristine original Technicolor prints of the film in existence. The Pathe disc off this restoration reflects a cooler, more saturated, more 'traditional', Technicolor look than the Criterion disc does. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Scorsese used his own Technicolor print as the primary color reference for the look of this version. And I wouldn't be surprised if Scorsese is one of those people who didn't like the warm glow that Criterion gave "The Leopard", if only because it isn't the way the film looked when it was originally released.

(Although Criterion claims that The Film Foundation used their restoration for color comparison, it may be that they only used it to match the color and font of the recreated main titiles.)

Also, the framing on the Pathe disc (and, therefore, The Film Foundation restoration) is quite correct, other than a bit too much trim at the top and bottom of the frame. It's the Criterion framing that's way off.
Regarding the colors I think that there are parts (like bluish faces and walls) that are too cold looking and not just neutral but overall I would not have a problem with them if they go back to the look the movie had when it was released. I have a problem though with the cinematographer signing off this new transfer when it is completely different looking than what he had worked on - it is pointless.

What I have a hard time understanding is how a 2.55 to 1 framing of a Technirama movie that was never shown wider than 2.35 to 1 can be "quite correct" and the framing of the other transfer way off?

That does not make any sense, now does it? I always thought that the Criterion version did not need to be in a 2.2:1 aspect ratio as 70mm prints of The Leopard would be very rare and I have never even heard of a 70mm screening of this movie. So the 2.35 aspect ratio of anamorphic 35mm prints would indeed be an acceptable width and much more common but with a 2.55 to 1 aspect ratio the new Blu-Ray is going to extremes in the other direction and certainly if they had compared to Martin Scorseses print of The Leopard they could not have arrived at that framing.
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post #62 of 88 Old 12-10-2010, 07:20 AM
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Ok, I did a bit more searching as I remembered some info about a European Technirama aperture.

So there were indeed two different apertures for Technirama cameras in Europe and the US:

Cameras from Technicolor Europe (Techicolor was the creator of Technirama and Super technirama 70) had an aperture of 1.480" by 0.915" resulting in an aspect ratio of 2.43 with the 1.5 Technirama squeeze reversed.

Cameras from Technicolor Hollywood had a bigger aperture that used more real estate on the 8 perf Technirama frame, giving it the dimensions of 1.496" by 0.992" with a resulting aspect ratio of 2.26.

So with the new Blu-Ray of The Leopard having an aspect ratio of 2.55 there is about 5% missing from the top and bottom of the frame if we take into account that this production most probably used cameras from Technicolor London but at the same time there is more side information than there was before in theatrical exhibitions that were almost all in the 2.35 aspect ratio of anamorphic 35mm of that time.

This is similar to the flat release of HTWWW from Warner that shows more picture on the sides than in the original Cinerama presentations.

Still I wonder why it was decided to reduce the scan in height and at the same time go all out to the (previously never seen) sides of the Technirama frame? Certainly the Technirama camera had some kind of markers for the area of the frame that marked the parts of the frame that would be used for the 35mm and in some cases 70mm prints so what we get now is parts of the frame that were not intended to be seen when The Leopard was shot.
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post #63 of 88 Old 12-11-2010, 08:14 PM
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Reading this thread inspired me to watch the Criterion BD of The Leopard that has been sitting on my shelf for months. I was a little apprehensive after reading some of the criticism here, but I was pleased to find that it is a fine release, on par with Lola Montes and only a notch or two below Bigger Than Life. I specifically looked for the screenshots shown here and found the image on my 100” screen to be an improvement. Yes, there is a warmer hue (which I did not find objectionable), but beyond that I found much more depth and vitality to the BD image. For example, the color and detail in the ballroom sequence is stunning. By comparison, it almost seems like the screenshots are raw images that have not been processed. In any event, they are not representative of the PQ from the BD. I haven’t seen the European release, and maybe it is a good one, but I have no interest in an English-unfriendly version when the Criterion is so good.

It's worth noting that the Criterion release has received stellar reviews for PQ, notably here, here and here.

Two final comments: I’m basing my opinion not on screenshots, but on actually watching the film. And I’m not defending Criterion as a company or their marketing hyperbole; I’m defending the image on the disc.
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post #64 of 88 Old 12-11-2010, 09:05 PM
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So the new French release doesn't have English subs?
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post #65 of 88 Old 12-11-2010, 09:56 PM
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Michael:

I wouldn't put too much faith in the claim on the box of the Anchor Bay SUSPIRIA DVD that Tovoli "supervised" the transfer. Many, MANY Anchor Bay DVDs from that period (and after) had erroneous information printed on their DVD cases, and the fact that the Italian DVD of SUSPIRIA (which was released around the same time as the Anchor Bay yet looked decidedly different than it) was also supposedly "supervised by Luciano Tovoli" leads me to believe that Tovoli probably had nothing to do with it.

Mind you, I'm not defending the blown-out contrast and clipping on the Italian and British SUSPIRIA Blu-rays, but I do not think this was due to Tovoli recklessly tinkering with the image. Rather I think it was a downconversion artifact- in 2007 when Tovoli supervised the new digital "restoration" of SUSPIRIA it was not just meant for Blu-ray and DVD but for Digital Cinema screenings, which suggests they did a 2K DI at full film color space. Said DI would later be downconverted for the Blu-ray and DVD, and if said downconversion was done incorrectly, it could/would result in the ugly contrast clipping we see on the resultant Italian and British Blu-rays of SUSPIRIA. In fact I checked with a friend who works in the industry and he said there are multiple settings available when converting a 2K DI to "standard" HD colorspace, and if one was to click the wrong setting it would result in the types of artifacts seen on the Italian/British SUSPIRIA Blu-rays. Take a look at the screen grabs on DVD Beaver comparing the British Blu-ray of SUSPIRIA with the new Japanese Blu-ray. They are clearly taken from the same film-to-digital transfer, but the Japanese Blu-ray does not have the clipped contrast that the British and Italian Blu-rays do,which suggests to me that the original transfer is fine, but it was incorrectly converted from 2K-to-HD for the Italian and British Blus.

Vincent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiggles View Post
It wouldn't be the first time such extreme differences have been apparent in two different masters both approved by the same person. For instance, cinematographer Luciano Tovoli apparently supervised two different masters for Dario Argento's SUSPIRIA - the one used for Anchor Bay's 2001 DVD (extremely faithful to the look of the IB Technicolor print I had the good fortune to see projected last year) and the awful-looking 2007 HD remaster:

OLD


NEW


OLD


NEW


An acquaintance asked him about this issue when interviewing him for supplementary material on a DVD release (I forget which film), and he more or less admitted that the fans tend to have a much better idea of how these films "should" look than he does nowadays.
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post #66 of 88 Old 12-11-2010, 11:41 PM
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Fox/Pathe version is FAR better

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post #67 of 88 Old 12-11-2010, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by saginawjuggalo View Post
Fox/Pathe version is FAR better
Based on the screenshots or the disc?
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post #68 of 88 Old 12-12-2010, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by shiftyeyes View Post
So the new French release doesn't have English subs?
You are correct. Italian and French audio, French subtitles (forced when using Italian audio).
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post #69 of 88 Old 12-12-2010, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Pereira View Post
Michael:

I wouldn't put too much faith in the claim on the box of the Anchor Bay SUSPIRIA DVD that Tovoli "supervised" the transfer. Many, MANY Anchor Bay DVDs from that period (and after) had erroneous information printed on their DVD cases, and the fact that the Italian DVD of SUSPIRIA (which was released around the same time as the Anchor Bay yet looked decidedly different than it) was also supposedly "supervised by Luciano Tovoli" leads me to believe that Tovoli probably had nothing to do with it.

Mind you, I'm not defending the blown-out contrast and clipping on the Italian and British SUSPIRIA Blu-rays, but I do not think this was due to Tovoli recklessly tinkering with the image. Rather I think it was a downconversion artifact- in 2007 when Tovoli supervised the new digital "restoration" of SUSPIRIA it was not just meant for Blu-ray and DVD but for Digital Cinema screenings, which suggests they did a 2K DI at full film color space. Said DI would later be downconverted for the Blu-ray and DVD, and if said downconversion was done incorrectly, it could/would result in the ugly contrast clipping we see on the resultant Italian and British Blu-rays of SUSPIRIA. In fact I checked with a friend who works in the industry and he said there are multiple settings available when converting a 2K DI to "standard" HD colorspace, and if one was to click the wrong setting it would result in the types of artifacts seen on the Italian/British SUSPIRIA Blu-rays. Take a look at the screen grabs on DVD Beaver comparing the British Blu-ray of SUSPIRIA with the new Japanese Blu-ray. They are clearly taken from the same film-to-digital transfer, but the Japanese Blu-ray does not have the clipped contrast that the British and Italian Blu-rays do,which suggests to me that the original transfer is fine, but it was incorrectly converted from 2K-to-HD for the Italian and British Blus.

Vincent
Vincent:

Point taken about Anchor Bay and their marketing of director- or cinematographer-approved transfers. Although, regarding the older Italian DVD of SUSPIRIA, it's true that it looks different from the AB version, but not so different that I would have a hard time believing the same man could have approved both on separate occasions. In fact, looking at the two different versions now in the comparison I made some years back (before the fiasco of the 2007 remaster), I'm struck by how consistent the look is between them in many of the shots.

Regarding the Japanese BD, I've seen the DVD Beaver comparison, and while the shots of the Japanese disc are unquestionably less contrasty than those of the UK release, I still suspect that if we were to look at examples from the more problematic scenes (such as the climax), there would still be a lot wrong with the Japanese version. Look at the close-up of Barbara Magnolfi: it's more contrast boosted on the UK disc for sure, but the Japanese one still doesn't look anywhere near right. I'd be willing to put money on the Tanzakademie still being neon pink in the shot where Daniel approaches it (after the "slumber party" scene), just as I'd be willing to bet that, in the conversation between Susie and Madame Blanc after Daniel's death, it will still look as if floodlights are being shone in the actresses' faces. For what it's worth, someone emailed me the other day and told me that the Japanese release is "still contrast boosted".

In my review of the UK release, I said I suspected that Nouveaux Pictures had attempted to correct the overly "bright" image by playing with the contrast, but in doing so had ended up clipping it even more severely. (Case in point - Italian BD: http://whiggles.landofwhimsy.com/hdc.../suspiria2.jpg UK BD: http://www.landofwhimsy.com/funbag/suspiriaukbd4.jpg. Point of comparison - AB DVD: http://whiggles.landofwhimsy.com/hdc...riacomp2-1.jpg) I believe that this would more than account for the differences between the Japanese and UK releases in the DVD Beaver comparison. All it means is that the Japanese version looks closer to the Italian and French discs, not that it brings the contrast back to anything approaching reasonable levels.

Every time a new version of SUSPIRIA comes out derived from the 2007 remaster, there's an initial brief ray of hope as a handful of fairly innocuous-looking shots emerge, but in every case it has turned out that the contrast boosting is still present. I'd like to think that the original master IS absolutely fine and that all the problems stem from an incorrect conversion of the colour space. Whether we'll ever see a corrected version, though, is anyone's guess.

Anyway, apologies for the digression from THE LEOPARD...
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post #70 of 88 Old 12-12-2010, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I have prepared a custom English subtitle-track for those interested. Am I allowed to post that here?

Also...

Quote:
Originally Posted by R o d View Post

Reading this thread inspired me to watch the Criterion BD of The Leopard that has been sitting on my shelf for months. I was a little apprehensive after reading some of the criticism here, but I was pleased to find that it is a fine release, on par with Lola Montes and only a notch or two below Bigger Than Life. I specifically looked for the screenshots shown here and found the image on my 100” screen to be an improvement. Yes, there is a warmer hue (which I did not find objectionable), but beyond that I found much more depth and vitality to the BD image. For example, the color and detail in the ballroom sequence is stunning. By comparison, it almost seems like the screenshots are raw images that have not been processed. In any event, they are not representative of the PQ from the BD. I haven’t seen the European release, and maybe it is a good one, but I have no interest in an English-unfriendly version when the Criterion is so good.

I find my screenshots very representative of the BFI/Criterion versions. Sure the intrusive sharpening-noise isn't as bad in motion - but it's definitely present. If you feel the Criterion is stunning, the Pathe/Fox will have you through the roof .

Furthermore, I think 'Lola Montes' and 'Bigger than Life' are top-notch restorations, and not even comparable in quality to Criterion's 'Leopard'. Those reviews over at DVDtalk and Blu-ray.com aren't exactly valuable, they have been proven to be an unreliable source for accurate reviews more than once.
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post #71 of 88 Old 12-12-2010, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penman View Post

Based on the screenshots or the disc?

Rarely have screenshots lead me astray. I think these screenshots are quite telling even to a blind man. Let me ask you, do you work or have ties to Criterion?


Wait, nevermind that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penman View Post

Wow. What a depressing difference (for those of us who bought the Criterion already).

I wonder if we'll see another version (w/English) in my lifetime...

It seems you're in agreement with me... At first I wasn't sure it you were trying to belittle my opinion or what.

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post #72 of 88 Old 12-12-2010, 12:39 PM
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Definitely wasn't trying to belittle. Just wondered what you had based your assessment on. And I'm still wondering.
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post #73 of 88 Old 12-12-2010, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Pereira View Post

Rather I think it was a downconversion artifact- in 2007 when Tovoli supervised the new digital "restoration" of SUSPIRIA it was not just meant for Blu-ray and DVD but for Digital Cinema screenings, which suggests they did a 2K DI at full film color space. Said DI would later be downconverted for the Blu-ray and DVD, and if said downconversion was done incorrectly, it could/would result in the ugly contrast clipping we see on the resultant Italian and British Blu-rays of SUSPIRIA. In fact I checked with a friend who works in the industry and he said there are multiple settings available when converting a 2K DI to "standard" HD colorspace, and if one was to click the wrong setting it would result in the types of artifacts seen on the Italian/British SUSPIRIA Blu-rays.

If it was that easy to screwup the colorspace conversion, you'd think we'd see it a whole a lot more often considering the constant amount of other screws ups that studios are churning out.
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post #74 of 88 Old 12-12-2010, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BsRoz View Post
Furthermore, I think 'Lola Montes' and 'Bigger than Life' are top-notch restorations, and not even comparable in quality to Criterion's 'Leopard'. Those reviews over at DVDtalk and Blu-ray.com aren't exactly valuable, they have been proven to be an unreliable source for accurate reviews more than once.
These two are indeed very nice and especially Bigger Than Life was a really unexpected treat from Criterion!

The Leopard has that old master look with the kind of noise that you simply do not get anymore these days when using state of the art technology. The sharpening does not help either.

So thanks again for bringing the new version of the Leopard to our attention!
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post #75 of 88 Old 12-13-2010, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R o d View Post

Reading this thread inspired me to watch the Criterion BD of The Leopard that has been sitting on my shelf for months. I was a little apprehensive after reading some of the criticism here, but I was pleased to find that it is a fine release, on par with Lola Montes and only a notch or two below Bigger Than Life.

I have seen all 3 and completely disagree. The other two are in another league compared to Gattopardo which has a distinctive electronic and coarse/fuzzy video look the others lack due to the use of more advanced scanners and digital restoration techniques.
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post #76 of 88 Old 12-13-2010, 05:21 AM
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Completely agree on that. Haven't seen Lola Montes but Bigger Than Life is in a totally different league than The Leopard. Actually Bigger Than Life is one of the very best Criterion transfers I believe. I also have a thing for Barbara Rush
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post #77 of 88 Old 12-14-2010, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R o d View Post

It's worth noting that the Criterion release has received stellar reviews for PQ, notably here, here and here.

As the new version is overall certainly the more filmlike presentation it would have to get 6 or 7 out of 5 stars

Kidding aside this is why reviews are worth so little to many of us - one would have to be visually impaired not to notice some anomalies in The Leopard, even given the fact that one might enjoy the overall presentation. So why is it that the Criterion gets 5 out of 5 stars which would mean it is the best of the best? Maybe because the guys from Criterion said themselves that this was their best looking Blu-Ray so far?
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post #78 of 88 Old 12-14-2010, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post

So why is it that the Criterion gets 5 out of 5 stars which would mean it is the best of the best? Maybe because the guys from Criterion said themselves that this was their best looking Blu-Ray so far?

Or maybe it's because the reviewers actually watched the film instead of debating screenshots on their laptops.

Look guys, I know the European release had the better looking screenshots. That doesn't mean the Criterion looks bad. In fact the Criterion, although it looks okay in the screenshots, looks significantly better on a good projection system at home. Does it look as good as Bigger Than Life? No, I noted earlier that it was a notch or two below that level of quality. That doesn't mean The Leopard looks bad. Again, it's a fine release of an outstanding film, a significant upgrade from the DVD and a worthy addition to anyone's library.
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post #79 of 88 Old 12-14-2010, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R o d View Post

Or maybe it's because the reviewers actually watched the film instead of debating screenshots on their laptops.

You will notice that several members posting in this thread have watched both versions, and I know mhafner and his preferences with regard to picture quality for a very long time and would trust him any day over these expert reviewers



Quote:
Originally Posted by R o d View Post

Look guys, I know the European release had the better looking screenshots. That doesn't mean the Criterion looks bad. In fact the Criterion, although it looks okay in the screenshots, looks significantly better on a good projection system at home. Does it look as good as Bigger Than Life? No, I noted earlier that it was a notch or two below that level of quality. That doesn't mean The Leopard looks bad. Again, it's a fine release of an outstanding film, a significant upgrade from the DVD and a worthy addition to anyone's library.

There is a difference between looking bad and getting a 5/5 score which should basically mean it is a perfect release. If it looks good, give it a 3.5/5 or 4/5 - but then extremely mediocre releases like the BTTF trilogy get 4.5/5 already and with standards being that low The Leopard might as well get 5/5...
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post #80 of 88 Old 12-15-2010, 02:07 AM
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Oliver, let me offer some more information than might address some of the concerns you seem to have.

According to Colin Bell, who worked at Technicolor-London on the 1992 restoration of the film with Giuseppe Rotunno, "The Leopard" was photographed in full-frame Technirama (2.25:1 ar), The frame would be trimmed on the left and right sides to an ar of 2.21:1 for 70mm printing, and further cropped at the top of the frame to 2.35:1 for 35mm anamorphic prints. The difference in U.S. and European Technirama specs, which you mention, don't apply here. European filmmakers had adopted U.S. standards by the time "The Leopard" was filmed to accomodate the option of 70mm printing (again, according to Colin Bell).

The image on the Pathe disc is essentially original 2.35:1 (or 2.39:1) theatrical framing with some image trimmed from the top and bottom of the frame. Although it presents more picture info than has been previously seen on DVD, the Pathe doesn't show parts of the frame that were not intended to be seen, as you write. The 2.55:1 ar is, from all I've seen, simply the result of less frame height, not additional width. Compare, if you can, the Pathe to the older Medusa or Gaumont DVDs, or Criterion's disc of the English-dubbed version, and you should see that they all attempt to replicate 2.35 anamorphic framing, some more accurately than others.

The Criterion image is, in my opinion, a rather unorthodox one. It doesn't replicate intended 2.21:1 theatrical framing as Criterion may want us to think, but rather offers a 2.21 crop of an anamorphic 2.35 image. As was noted when the DVD was released, Criterion chose to trim more image info from the left side of the frame, than from the right, resulting in a somewhat lopsided picture. Occasionally, they decided to scan the 2.35 frame (probably to pick-up action otherwise lost to overscan), and, conversely, cropped more image from the right side, than from the left.

The practices of cropping, panning and scanning are, as Martin Scorsese, Roger Ebert, and other film purists' have noted, a form of redirecting the film', and should be avoided when transferring a film to DVD and BluRay. In begrudging fairness to Criterion, occasionally these practices are unavoidable, and, as Criterion claims, Rotunno did approve their work, which I assume includes the reframing. I suppose, in the end, it's quite similar to, though maybe worse than, Storraro's reframing of Criterion's The Last Emperor". I say 'worse than' because, if for no other reason, Luchino Visconti, unlike Bertolucci, is no longer around to offer his opinion on the matter.

Anyway, I hope this provides a bit of helpful info. Oh, and the Technirama cameras likely came from Technicolor-Rome, not London. Unless they ran short, in which case...
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post #81 of 88 Old 12-15-2010, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Dano16 View Post
Oliver, let me offer some more information than might address some of the concerns you seem to have.

According to Colin Bell, who worked at Technicolor-London on the 1992 restoration of the film with Giuseppe Rotunno, "The Leopard" was photographed in full-frame Technirama (2.25:1 ar), The frame would be trimmed on the left and right sides to an ar of 2.21:1 for 70mm printing, and further cropped at the top of the frame to 2.35:1 for 35mm anamorphic prints. The difference in U.S. and European Technirama specs, which you mention, don't apply here. European filmmakers had adopted U.S. standards by the time "The Leopard" was filmed to accomodate the option of 70mm printing (again, according to Colin Bell).

The image on the Pathe disc is essentially original 2.35:1 (or 2.39:1) theatrical framing with some image trimmed from the top and bottom of the frame. Although it presents more picture info than has been previously seen on DVD, the Pathe doesn’t show “parts of the frame that were not intended to be seen”, as you write. The 2.55:1 ar is, from all I’ve seen, simply the result of less frame height, not additional width. Compare, if you can, the Pathe to the older Medusa or Gaumont DVDs, or Criterion’s disc of the English-dubbed version, and you should see that they all attempt to replicate 2.35 anamorphic framing, some more accurately than others.

The Criterion image is, in my opinion, a rather unorthodox one. It doesn’t replicate intended 2.21:1 theatrical framing as Criterion may want us to think, but rather offers a 2.21 crop of an anamorphic 2.35 image. As was noted when the DVD was released, Criterion chose to trim more image info from the left side of the frame, than from the right, resulting in a somewhat lopsided picture. Occasionally, they decided to scan the 2.35 frame (probably to pick-up action otherwise lost to overscan), and, conversely, cropped more image from the right side, than from the left.

The practices of cropping, panning and scanning are, as Martin Scorsese, Roger Ebert, and other ‘film purists’ have noted, a form of ‘redirecting the film’, and should be avoided when transferring a film to DVD and BluRay. In begrudging fairness to Criterion, occasionally these practices are unavoidable, and, as Criterion claims, Rottunno did approve their work, which I assume includes the reframing. I suppose, in the end, it’s quite similar to, though maybe worse than, Storraro’s reframing of Criterion’s “The Last Emperor". I say 'worse than' because, if for no other reason, Luchino Visconti, unlike Bertolucci, is no longer around to offer his opinion on the matter.

Anyway, I hope this provides a bit of helpful info. Oh, and the Technirama cameras likely came from Technicolor-Rome, not London. Unless they ran short, in which case...
Thank you, this is interesting information. In that case (full Technirama aperture) it would mean that more than 13% of the picture height was cropped for the new Blu-Ray! (2,55:1 vs 2.21:1) I find this very surprising and I doubt this actually is the case, why should one make the decision to do that?
I would of course prefer to have a little added to the left and right of the picture instead of having those 13+% chopped off at the top and bottom - as you mentioned him this by the way almost approaches Storaro who cuts off a bit less than 15% for his Univision (2.0:1) format from Scope productions.

I think it would be really cool to have a frame scan like the one posted here of LoA to see how much of the negative of The Leopard is used in its different home video incarnations:

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/wide.../loa/loa1a.htm

I will try if I can line up one scene so that we can see the different framing on all three versions of The Leopard that I mentioned, that should be interesting with aspect ratios of ca 2,55, 2,21 and 2,29:1 for the different versions.
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post #82 of 88 Old 03-27-2011, 04:29 AM
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I sampled some of the French disc. In the detail, sharpness and lack of obvious digital filtering department this version is far superior to the BFI/Criterion version which looks embarrassingly bad in comparison. Like VHS compared to DVD. Concerning colour grading and contrast the new version is different as well. Colours are usually more saturated (to the point I wish they had toned it down some, especially the orangy complexions in some parts) and contrast is pushed further (again a bit too much for my taste in some shots). It looks gorgeous, no doubt. Intended look? I leave that to the experts to decide. The current disc with the enforced French subtitles removed and the colours redone a bit would be my ideal 1080p version. It holds up well against the latest Hollywood productions. I hope the 4K is available in time (on Red Ray, for example).
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post #83 of 88 Old 03-27-2017, 09:55 AM
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I know this is a very old thread, but... To summarize, can i say the following (?):

- Madman (Australia) seems to be the best version, with better detail, color grading and, compared to the other restoration BD it shows best shadow detail and blacks. (Framing is more accurate, if I remember well...)

- Pathe (France) version is a close second, lacking same quality shadow detail, blacks a little crushed, i.e, contrast a little on the "pushy" side, but color is better than Medusa, though a little worse than Madman. And lacks English subtitles, with forced french subtitles with Italian audio on. (what about framing?)

- Medusa (Italy) comes third, with more contrast even than the French a little too saturated colors, some debatable framing.

- Criterion/BFI - better color schematics than Medusa, a little too much digital processing, less detail, debatable framing, all in all a worse scan.

That said, Madman is OOP and if sold, it is by outrageous amounts of money. Is my best bet to buy the Pathe, then rip my own copy myself and add whatever subtitle language I want and stream via my PLEX server, or play via my HDD connected to the TV? Ripping, can I get rid of the forced French subtitles (I guess so, but...)? Why wasn't this option discussed here?

I have a 78" TV, so I'm guessing difference in scans will be more noticeable.

These are not affirmatives, but questions. Thanks for any enlightenment on the matter.

PS: and to add to the debate, being a filmmaker myself, the fact that you have parts of the frame captured but not intended to be in the final print (final AR) is very common practice, both in digital and more so was in 35mm or 16mm, both of which I used in my first two feature films. In film, for instance, when not using anamorphic, which was the general use, you are normally capturing full frame, but as you shoot you are framing for the AR you intend to be final, say 1.78 or 1.85, which have been more common in the last decades of film. With digital is a little different I guess, depending on the AR of the sensor and there are more variations (I'm no expert on digital cameras, so will not elaborate). Thus I don't believe debating how much of the framing was left out will be very conducive to a conclusion about the intended final AR. I suppose the understanding of the technology and equipment at the time is more realistic.
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post #84 of 88 Old 03-28-2017, 03:01 AM
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Well, these days we want an UHD version of course in glorious 4K and rec2020 (no need for HDR).
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post #85 of 88 Old 03-28-2017, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mhafner View Post
Well, these days we want an UHD version of course in glorious 4K and rec2020 (no need for HDR).
That and the proper color timing please, we could also use a little bit more shadow detail.


@mbernstein :
To my recollection the timing on the Australian, the French and the Japanese version was more or less the same so you could probably take either one if you base your decision on picture quality.
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post #86 of 88 Old 03-28-2017, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post
That and the proper color timing please, we could also use a little bit more shadow detail.


@mbernstein :
To my recollection the timing on the Australian, the French and the Japanese version was more or less the same so you could probably take either one if you base your decision on picture quality.
That's good, thanks! French is the more accessible and cheap, I guess.

But concerning actual UHD/4K discs, I wonder how realistic it is to expect any classic/older film on the format anytime soon, if ever. They are still releasing BD/DVD combos. Let's hope.
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post #87 of 88 Old 03-29-2017, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mbernstein View Post
That's good, thanks! French is the more accessible and cheap, I guess.

But concerning actual UHD/4K discs, I wonder how realistic it is to expect any classic/older film on the format anytime soon, if ever. They are still releasing BD/DVD combos. Let's hope.

Here is one for you, in 4K UHD, been out since December 2016.

Savage Pampas, from 1967, with Robert Taylor.
https://www.amazon.de/Die-Verfluchte.../dp/B01LREV538
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060942/

I bought it but have not watched it yet.
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post #88 of 88 Old 03-29-2017, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Blasst View Post
Here is one for you, in 4K UHD, been out since December 2016.

Savage Pampas, from 1967, with Robert Taylor.
https://www.amazon.de/Die-Verfluchte.../dp/B01LREV538
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060942/

I bought it but have not watched it yet.

Good to know, thanks. Let's hope Criterion and others jump in sooner than later.
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