Lists of fake and real 4K UHD Blu-Rays (2K vs 4K) - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 261 Old 02-10-2016, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Thanks for that. Very interesting.



I found this statement in his original tweet of particular interest:

"All of this work is conducted by professionals, with filmmaker involvement and oversight."

It seems to me that would preclude older catalog titles where the filmmakers have died. Does this mean that Fox doesn't plan to release movies more than a handful of years old on the format? Or will the studio release them in UHD but not re-grade them for HDR? Or does that "filmmaker involvement and oversight" get thrown out the window in some instances?

Personally, I'm not a fan of revisionism of old movies. If the movie wasn't made with HDR in mind, I'm not interested in watching it that way. I'd no more want to see The Sound of Music in HDR than I'd want to see Citizen Kane colorized.



Even Warner? Not so sure about that.
True, but a cleaned up remaster on a UHD disc with much higher bit rate, newer / better compression algorithm, and a wider color gamut could do wonders. The Seven Year Itch, Singing In The Rain, Wizard Of Oz, all sorts of classic films may wind up looking the best they ever will look ( ever in our lifetime ) on a 4K UHD disc, with no " revisionism " needed. Just less video noise. Let us hope, and encourage the studios. My checkbook is ready to reward them for their efforts.
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post #32 of 261 Old 02-10-2016, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by AlanAbby View Post
This time I'm staying away from the bleeding edge. Most films have CG effects done at 2K until I see just how jarring it will be to see live action footage at 4K with CG at 2K I'm waiting. The CG in Firefly comes to mind.


The most jawdropping movie I've seen so far is Smurfs 2 in 4k hdr on amazon prime.

The Smurfs just look downright ridiculously awesome. Not only the color but the detail and dimension and they look very 3d. Extremely impressive. I don't think anyone would see them and say they didn't look 4k. Granted the original work needs to not be sloppy in order for the improvements to really take hold.
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post #33 of 261 Old 02-11-2016, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
True, but a cleaned up remaster on a UHD disc with much higher bit rate, newer / better compression algorithm, and a wider color gamut could do wonders. The Seven Year Itch, Singing In The Rain, Wizard Of Oz, all sorts of classic films may wind up looking the best they ever will look ( ever in our lifetime ) on a 4K UHD disc, with no " revisionism " needed. Just less video noise. Let us hope, and encourage the studios. My checkbook is ready to reward them for their efforts.
You really think the difference between that and standard Blu-ray will be significant? I'll concede that there might be some small improvement, but not enough to convince many people to replace their entire movie collections.

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post #34 of 261 Old 02-11-2016, 11:58 AM
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You really think the difference between that and standard Blu-ray will be significant? I'll concede that there might be some small improvement, but not enough to convince many people to replace their entire movie collections.
We will see. I was initially a skeptic, but hearing from some reviewers that you can see the difference between a standard BR and a 4K BR on a 65" HDTV from 10' gives me hope. I have a 128" diagonal 2.35:1 screen ( and sit around 10' away ) - I'm betting I see an improvement for sure. If true, I'm willing to replace my collection ( slowly ) while buying only 4K Blu Rays going forward. Really, if we don't get a better source material ( and streaming will be a problem for a lot of us for years ) no amount of projector improvement will matter. in fact, in my experience, the better the projector, the more ruthless it shows flaws in the source. It's like pouring cheap wine into an expensive Riedel glass.
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post #35 of 261 Old 02-11-2016, 12:12 PM
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We will see. I was initially a skeptic, but hearing from some reviewers that you can see the difference between a standard BR and a 4K BR on a 65" HDTV from 10' gives me hope.
Are you referring to this article?

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...y-player/29748

If so, that comment about seeing a difference at 65" from 10' away has a really huge caveat in it:

"I did get to see fifteen or so minutes of 'The Martian' UHD Blu-ray in a store last Friday, and the results were impressive to need-more-research. In comparing the UHD Blu-ray to the standard Blu-ray (on difference tiered displays, sadly) UHD Blu-ray offered a noticeable uptick in visible on-screen detail, even at ten feet away from the 65" displays, and the Blu-ray seemed much more grainy and dark. I mention this to say I'm excited about the format; I believe there will be obvious improvements over Blu-ray. However, I can't be more specific because the calibration on this in-store display was wonky -- over-saturated colors (a suspicion that was confirmed last night when I saw 'The Martian' in Dolby Vision, so I have a benchmark) and an image made waxy by unnecessary motion processing."


I suspect that most of the differences he saw were due to different calibration and settings being used on the two displays. I'd wait for him to get the hardware in-house where he has some actual control over the comparison.

Also, he was comparing the HDR version of The Martian on a UHD disc to the non-HDR version on a standard Blu-ray. So of course they're going to look inherently different.

What I was talking about above was watching old movies without HDR on a UHD disc vs. the standard Blu-ray.

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post #36 of 261 Old 02-11-2016, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Are you referring to this article?

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...y-player/29748

If so, that comment about seeing a difference at 65" from 10' away has a really huge caveat in it:

"I did get to see fifteen or so minutes of 'The Martian' UHD Blu-ray in a store last Friday, and the results were impressive to need-more-research. In comparing the UHD Blu-ray to the standard Blu-ray (on difference tiered displays, sadly) UHD Blu-ray offered a noticeable uptick in visible on-screen detail, even at ten feet away from the 65" displays, and the Blu-ray seemed much more grainy and dark. I mention this to say I'm excited about the format; I believe there will be obvious improvements over Blu-ray. However, I can't be more specific because the calibration on this in-store display was wonky -- over-saturated colors (a suspicion that was confirmed last night when I saw 'The Martian' in Dolby Vision, so I have a benchmark) and an image made waxy by unnecessary motion processing."


I suspect that most of the differences he saw were due to different calibration and settings being used on the two displays. I'd wait for him to get the hardware in-house where he has some actual control over the comparison.
True. But lets put it this way - if there is no improvement in source material, home theater is more or less dead in the water. New " better " projectors will be at best a sideways move. So we had better hope that 4K UHD BR is an improvement. Even if it takes a bit of trial and error in the beginning to get things right ( like Blu Ray did ).

If AVAD would ship me my Samsung 4K player and Fox Connect would ship the disks I ordered, I'd be able to tell you with my own eyes, with my RS600 and VW600. Maybe in 2 weeks.
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post #37 of 261 Old 02-11-2016, 07:04 PM
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Even if we accept that the vast majority of masters are 2K, given that most of the movies we enjoy are scope, you're talking about a master that is 2048X858. Existing Blu-ray means that's scaled down to 1920X804 ish. All things being equal, that sounds like a slight improvement if it is instead scaled up to UHD scope. Is that enough to get me to replace my existing Blu-rays? Maybe not (although other things like HDR might be). But is it enough to get me to buy UHD Blu going forward? Absolutely.
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post #38 of 261 Old 02-11-2016, 07:19 PM
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Well I'm over a half hour into the Scorch Trials UHD and watching this on a non-HDR set(Vizio P series 70") and I'm very underwhelmed. In fact when you play the movie it states you should connect to an HDR set for optimal vieiwing. So far there's not really a huge leap from blu-ray for this movie on my NON-HDR TV. I'd like to see tech specs like codec/bitrate but I have yet to figure that out on this Samsung player.
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post #39 of 261 Old 02-12-2016, 01:15 PM
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In order for digital films to even match 35mm quality, they'll have to be released in 5k media formats for the 5k Apple display, even then that's still shy of 6.5k (24MP) that real 35mm represents. That's over double the resolution of 4k! In order to eliminate this fact altogether, we shoot strait to 8k, and NHK is taking us there. First native 8k movie is being shot this year, along with Super Bowl 50 and the next Olympics. Broadcasting seems to be wanting to skip 4k altogether, and is preparing the infrastructure for the arrival of 8k.
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post #40 of 261 Old 02-12-2016, 02:09 PM
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I guess there's probably no way to make true digital screenshots of UHD BD right now?? I'd be really interested to see side by side shots of the same movie from various sources like people have been doing for streaming vs. BD, etc...

My guess is the initial releases will show a very modest (if any) improvement in resolution.
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post #41 of 261 Old 02-12-2016, 07:36 PM
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Thumbs down Please read this and share as much as possible!

UHD Blu ray is a scam at the moment!

I wanted to do a definitive test to show how much more resolution the new 4K/UHD Blu ray discs have than regular Blu ray discs. I compared both visually from a normal sitting position and I swore up and down the 4K/UHD Blu ray looked better. Not leaps and bounds better but I was convinced it was better for resolution and detail.

So I got out my trusty GH4 camera and shot still images of my Vizio M80 screen with the regular Martian Blu ray and also the UHD Blu ray. I used the exact same settings in the player and in the TV for both tests. The only difference was the media in the Samsung K8500 player.

Now the color differences are obvious in these photos. The grading is definitely different. The compression differences are also obvious. However, much to my dismay the detail and resolution is literally identical. Now going into this everyone had said the Martian was not rendered in 4K so I guess I should of known. But seriously I wasn't expecting them to be literally the exact same resolution with no detail improvement whatsoever.

Honestly, I think the color differences and differences in the encoding even with a non HDR TV are an improvement. However, the resolution with the discs that are not shot and rendered in 4K or greater is very disappointing. I really feel like we have all been duped here. Please share this post with as many people as possible. This isn't right. They shouldn't literally have the exact same resolution.

Just in case anyone is questioning whether my TV or Reciever was causing it down rez to 1080p and then up rez back up to UHD I tested it several different ways. First I tested the UHD Blu ray connected through my receiver and it did indeed say that my receiver was not HDCP 2.2 compliant. It said it would down rez to 1080p but it still played the movie at UHD/4K. Then I tested the same disc connected directly from the K8500 to my TV and I removed all other HDMI connections from the TV. I also powered off and then back on the K8500 Blu ray player just in case it was remembering the handshake from before. This time it didn't give me the HDCP 2.2 warning and it played the FOX logo in UHD/4K this time instead of 1080p like it did with the HDCP warning.

I am absolutely positive now that the UHD Blu rays that are not sourced from 4K or better have zero increase in detail over the regular Blu rays. Therefore, I can't in good conscious recommend buying the non 4K sourced Blu rays. The HDR aspects may be a huge benefit for some so maybe it is worth it for that. However, the whole detail and resolution aspect seems like a hoax at the moment. Take a look at the pictures below and tell me what you think. Please do this test yourself with a good interchangeable lens camera if you still are not convinced by these images.

1080p Blu ray Disc


UHD Blu ray Disc same settings connected through the receiver with up scaling turned off. Gives the HDCP warning but still plays in UHD.


UHD Blu ray Disc same settings connected directly to the TV with no other HDMI connections. Does not give the HDCP warning.
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post #42 of 261 Old 02-12-2016, 08:03 PM
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by zmarty View Post
Below is a list of 4K UHD Blu-Ray disks available for pre-order on Amazon, along with the actual format the movies were mastered in (from IMDB).

Potentially fake 4K UHD?
  • The Martian: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format) - Based on the discussion in this thread it seems some part of The Martian might be remastered in 4K, but it's unclear if and how much of it.
Can anyone tell me any parts of the Martian that should be true 4K? I couldn't seem to find any.
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post #43 of 261 Old 02-12-2016, 08:17 PM
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Can anyone tell me any parts of the Martian that should be true 4K? I couldn't seem to find any.
Any shot with CGI in it is going to be 2k. So that rules out pretty much anything where you see Mars. (You know, the parts of the movie that people might actually want to be visually impressed by.)

Close-ups of Matt Damon's face, maybe? But not when he's wearing the space suit, because the visor was CGI.
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post #44 of 261 Old 02-12-2016, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Any shot with CGI in it is going to be 2k. So that rules out pretty much anything where you see Mars. (You know, the parts of the movie that people might actually want to be visually impressed by.)

Close-ups of Matt Damon's face, maybe? But not when he's wearing the space suit, because the visor was CGI.
Wow that is like the whole movie then. I will test some of the Earth shots later.
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post #45 of 261 Old 02-12-2016, 08:34 PM
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Wow that is like the whole movie then.
Yeah, that's kind of the sad irony.

Quote:
I will test some of the Earth shots later.
Even there, be selective. Any shot with a computer or television screen visible will be a CG composite. If a character stands in front of an open window, the background was probably a green-screen. A movie like this has way more "invisible" CGI than you might expect. It's not just the big "special effects" scenes.
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post #46 of 261 Old 02-13-2016, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
The HDR aspects may be a huge benefit for some so maybe it is worth it for that. However, the whole detail and resolution aspect seems like a hoax at the moment.
Isn't HDR one of THE BIG features distinguishing UHD BD from its predecessor and a big reason for upgrading? Also, while I'm not at all prepared to dispute your opinion, before declaring the current state of the new format a fraud, you might want to include additional facts about your panel that might influence its ability to accurately display detail and resolution such as whether it was professionally calibrated and the like.
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post #47 of 261 Old 02-13-2016, 08:44 AM
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UHD 4k displays have such high resolution, and upconversion algorithms have become
so good, that it is sometimes difficult to see by eye if a particular video is pristine full
resolution or if some upconversion has occurred in the preparation of the content.
That's from a recent tech paper, "Practical Methods to Validate Ultra 4K Content," by Arris' Sean McCarthy. Here's a recent avsforum overview post of that pdf whitepaper.

McCarthy's software approach analyzes 4k video, displaying the level of 4k content as oval-shaped patterns on screens (see overview and his paper for photos and graphs). Suggested building such analysis capabilities into high-end displays. Or perhaps upcoming UHD test Blu-rays could license the software for home PC use.

Interested to see if mpgxsvcd's excellent approach above, comparing "The Martian" 1080p Blu-ray to the 2k-to-4k UHD disc, produces a better (more apparent) on-screen difference comparing discs when a 4k DI (not 2k DI) is the starting point. Several examples appear in the original post here, although doubt a movie such as "The Tree of Life" (TOL), which had a 4k DI captured from 35mm, likely with little CGI, will soon appear as UHD. I used TOL in 2014 to compare its finer details (width-wise) with 1080p multiburst test patterns . -- John
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post #48 of 261 Old 02-13-2016, 04:47 PM
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Interesting that Life Of Pi isn't real 4K. They must have done some serious work on color grading for HDR because the 1 minute clip on demo-uhd3d.com is mind blowing.
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post #49 of 261 Old 02-13-2016, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
UHD Blu ray is a scam at the moment!

I wanted to do a definitive test to show how much more resolution the new 4K/UHD Blu ray discs have than regular Blu ray discs. I compared both visually from a normal sitting position and I swore up and down the 4K/UHD Blu ray looked better. Not leaps and bounds better but I was convinced it was better for resolution and detail.

So I got out my trusty GH4 camera and shot still images of my Vizio M80 screen with the regular Martian Blu ray and also the UHD Blu ray. I used the exact same settings in the player and in the TV for both tests. The only difference was the media in the Samsung K8500 player.

Now the color differences are obvious in these photos. The grading is definitely different. The compression differences are also obvious. However, much to my dismay the detail and resolution is literally identical. Now going into this everyone had said the Martian was not rendered in 4K so I guess I should of known. But seriously I wasn't expecting them to be literally the exact same resolution with no detail improvement whatsoever.

Honestly, I think the color differences and differences in the encoding even with a non HDR TV are an improvement. However, the resolution with the discs that are not shot and rendered in 4K or greater is very disappointing. I really feel like we have all been duped here. Please share this post with as many people as possible. This isn't right. They shouldn't literally have the exact same resolution.

Just in case anyone is questioning whether my TV or Reciever was causing it down rez to 1080p and then up rez back up to UHD I tested it several different ways. First I tested the UHD Blu ray connected through my receiver and it did indeed say that my receiver was not HDCP 2.2 compliant. It said it would down rez to 1080p but it still played the movie at UHD/4K. Then I tested the same disc connected directly from the K8500 to my TV and I removed all other HDMI connections from the TV. I also powered off and then back on the K8500 Blu ray player just in case it was remembering the handshake from before. This time it didn't give me the HDCP 2.2 warning and it played the FOX logo in UHD/4K this time instead of 1080p like it did with the HDCP warning.

I am absolutely positive now that the UHD Blu rays that are not sourced from 4K or better have zero increase in detail over the regular Blu rays. Therefore, I can't in good conscious recommend buying the non 4K sourced Blu rays. The HDR aspects may be a huge benefit for some so maybe it is worth it for that. However, the whole detail and resolution aspect seems like a hoax at the moment. Take a look at the pictures below and tell me what you think. Please do this test yourself with a good interchangeable lens camera if you still are not convinced by these images.

1080p Blu ray Disc
My analysis of Exodus aligns with your conclusions. I'll add that what at times looks like more detail is NOT resolution but rather simply more black detail.

I did see more noticeable and verifiable resolution improvement in the Fantastic Four.

That said, the benefit of UHD Bluray appears to be expanded dynamic range and a wider color gamut (generally speaking)... and why can't they simply do that with 1080p bluray?? In a sense, that's what they've done.
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Sony Z9F 75, Vizio P75C1 UHD/HDR/DV, Pioneer Elite SC-95, Samsung UHD Bluray K8500, AppleTV 4K, CC Ultra
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post #50 of 261 Old 02-16-2016, 08:59 PM
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Just asking, the upcoming Pineapple Express 4k UHD and Concussion 4k UHD are not on this list, will it be updated soon?
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post #51 of 261 Old 02-16-2016, 11:45 PM
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Just asking, the upcoming Pineapple Express 4k UHD and Concussion 4k UHD are not on this list, will it be updated soon?
but SHOULD they be on the list?

according to imdb.com, concussion was filmed using the arri alexa XT plus, which shoots at 3.4k, but the film is listed to have a 2k DI. even if the film got a 4k DI, the camera shoots at 3.4k so can you technically call it a "true 4k film"?

I personally dont care either way the arri alexa produces great footage despite "only" being 3.4k.

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post #52 of 261 Old 02-16-2016, 11:47 PM
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Either fake or real they should be on the list so we will know?
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post #53 of 261 Old 02-16-2016, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carr857 View Post
Just asking, the upcoming Pineapple Express 4k UHD and Concussion 4k UHD are not on this list, will it be updated soon?
Pineapple Express was shot on 35mm so if the transfer is good it should look pretty good.
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post #54 of 261 Old 02-16-2016, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by carr857 View Post
Either fake or real they should be on the list so we will know?
whoops. my bad lol

i thought the list was only for "real" 4k.

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post #55 of 261 Old 02-17-2016, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
i thought the list was only for "real" 4k.

The problem with calling a movie REAL 4K (100% 4K material or analogue equivalent) is that almost EVERY movie would fail. Movies like The Abyss and Jurassic Park would fail. Yes they were shot on 35mm film, but digital SFX done on a computer in the 80's and 90's... not 4K quality by the letter of the law. We do have to allow some wiggle room.

That's why on my site I have filtered all the movies/tv shows into 3 categories... 'Improved', 'Nearly', and 'Real 4K'. Even a movie which was filmed and mastered in 2K will still get some improvement from a 4K transfer. Movies filmed in 2.8/3.4K with CG can look nearly as good. And in addition to 100%/True/Real/Perfect 4K movies I have included ones like Jessica Jones and Salt, which featured minimal CG and should be imperceptible when watching.
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Sometimes UHD discs aren't really 4K...
I don't have a "home theater"... I have a "home cinema".  Nobody is singing and dancing in my house.

Last edited by ElevatorHappyFun; 02-17-2016 at 11:39 AM. Reason: Swapped movies in the example.
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post #56 of 261 Old 02-17-2016, 12:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carr857 View Post
Just asking, the upcoming Pineapple Express 4k UHD and Concussion 4k UHD are not on this list, will it be updated soon?
I will update the list momentarily. Unfortunately both of them had 2K masters. For the UHD Blu-Rays released so far they did not bother to make 4K masters, if the original was 2K. So it's possible they will always use the 2K master if the film was originally finished in 2K.
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post #57 of 261 Old 02-17-2016, 12:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ElevatorHappyFun View Post
The problem with calling a movie REAL 4K (100% 4K material or analogue equivalent) is that almost EVERY movie would fail.
I think you are splitting hairs. There is a big difference between having the whole master at 2K, and having 35mm film where some of the shots used lower res. In my opinion the movies you listed could get reasonable UHD/4K releases.

(Note: The most recent Star Wars trilogy - episodes I to III - was 1080p because it was shot digitally on digital cameras that were very new at that time)

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post #58 of 261 Old 02-17-2016, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by zmarty View Post
I think you are splitting hairs. There is a big difference between having the whole master at 2K, and having 35mm film where some of the shots used lower res. In my opinion the movies you listed could get reasonable UHD/4K releases.

(Note: The most recent Star Wars trilogy was 1080p because it was shot digitally on digital cameras that were very new at that time)
Splitting hairs is what I was talking about. I am all for being reasonably lenient and bending a bit when calling a movie Real 4K.

As for Star Wars, I was referring to the 1977 movie and the Original Trilogy.

Sometimes UHD discs aren't really 4K...
I don't have a "home theater"... I have a "home cinema".  Nobody is singing and dancing in my house.
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post #59 of 261 Old 02-17-2016, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElevatorHappyFun View Post
Even a movie which was filmed and mastered in 2K will still get some improvement from a 4K transfer.
No they don't. Just look at the sample images I provided. If the source is 2K then the UHD Blu ray will have identical resolution and detail to the Blu ray. Everything else on the UHD HDR Blu ray will be better even on non HDR TVs. However, the source must be greater than 2K to show any improvement in resolution or detail with UHD Blu ray.

I went back and tested scenes in the Martian where there was no CG and yes those scenes show significant resolution and detail improvement over the 1080p Blu ray. I don't have the pictures to post right now but I will do that when I get the chance.

The biggest issue is that those scenes that are true UHD/4K in the Martian are few and far between. Also the landscape scenes of the martian surface are really where I wanted the detail to shine through not the scene with the closeup of Matt Damon's unshaven beard.

I can't wait for the first true 4K sourced "Good" UHD HDR Blu ray. I guess that will either be "The Amazing Spider-Man 2" or "Sicario"?
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post #60 of 261 Old 02-17-2016, 07:46 AM
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I thought Chappie, Salt, and Hancock were also other titles with 4K masters? I currently have them all on pre-order except for Sicario. Which I will probably order soon.

I just know I have been very impressed with the Fox titles. When coimparing them to their BD couterparts the UHD BD is much better. And if those really don't have a 4K master, I can't wait to see what a title with a real 4K master looks like.

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