Lists of fake and real 4K UHD Blu-Rays (2K vs 4K) - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 261 Old 02-17-2016, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ElevatorHappyFun View Post
The problem with calling a movie REAL 4K (100% 4K material or analogue equivalent) is that almost EVERY movie would fail. [The original] Star Wars, Ghostbusters, and Jurassic Park all would fail. Yes they were shot on35mm film, but digital SFX done on a computer in the 70's,80's and 90's... not 4K quality by the letter of the law.
Ghostbusters does not have any digital VFX. Its special effects were all analog optical composites. Digital effects were only added to Star Wars with the 1997 Special Editions and later revisions.
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post #62 of 261 Old 02-17-2016, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Ghostbusters does not have any digital VFX. Its special effects were all analog optical composites. Digital effects were only added to Star Wars with the 1997 Special Editions and later revisions.
You are correct. I was under the impression both the Lightsabers and Proton Pack beams were rotoscoped by a computer. I will go back and make the necessary noted edit to reflect my mistake. Instead of SW and Ghostbusters I swapped in The Abyss (1989).

Sometimes UHD discs aren't really 4K...
I don't have a "home theater"... I have a "home cinema".  Nobody is singing and dancing in my house.

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post #63 of 261 Old 02-17-2016, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
UHD Blu ray is a scam at the moment!

I wanted to do a definitive test to show how much more resolution the new 4K/UHD Blu ray discs have than regular Blu ray discs. I compared both visually from a normal sitting position and I swore up and down the 4K/UHD Blu ray looked better. Not leaps and bounds better but I was convinced it was better for resolution and detail.

So I got out my trusty GH4 camera and shot still images of my Vizio M80 screen with the regular Martian Blu ray and also the UHD Blu ray. I used the exact same settings in the player and in the TV for both tests. The only difference was the media in the Samsung K8500 player.

Now the color differences are obvious in these photos. The grading is definitely different. The compression differences are also obvious. However, much to my dismay the detail and resolution is literally identical. Now going into this everyone had said the Martian was not rendered in 4K so I guess I should of known. But seriously I wasn't expecting them to be literally the exact same resolution with no detail improvement whatsoever.

Honestly, I think the color differences and differences in the encoding even with a non HDR TV are an improvement. However, the resolution with the discs that are not shot and rendered in 4K or greater is very disappointing. I really feel like we have all been duped here. Please share this post with as many people as possible. This isn't right. They shouldn't literally have the exact same resolution.

Just in case anyone is questioning whether my TV or Reciever was causing it down rez to 1080p and then up rez back up to UHD I tested it several different ways. First I tested the UHD Blu ray connected through my receiver and it did indeed say that my receiver was not HDCP 2.2 compliant. It said it would down rez to 1080p but it still played the movie at UHD/4K. Then I tested the same disc connected directly from the K8500 to my TV and I removed all other HDMI connections from the TV. I also powered off and then back on the K8500 Blu ray player just in case it was remembering the handshake from before. This time it didn't give me the HDCP 2.2 warning and it played the FOX logo in UHD/4K this time instead of 1080p like it did with the HDCP warning.

I am absolutely positive now that the UHD Blu rays that are not sourced from 4K or better have zero increase in detail over the regular Blu rays. Therefore, I can't in good conscious recommend buying the non 4K sourced Blu rays. The HDR aspects may be a huge benefit for some so maybe it is worth it for that. However, the whole detail and resolution aspect seems like a hoax at the moment. Take a look at the pictures below and tell me what you think. Please do this test yourself with a good interchangeable lens camera if you still are not convinced by these images.

1080p Blu ray Disc


UHD Blu ray Disc same settings connected through the receiver with up scaling turned off. Gives the HDCP warning but still plays in UHD.


UHD Blu ray Disc same settings connected directly to the TV with no other HDMI connections. Does not give the HDCP warning.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think you should better trust your eyes, rather than take a compressed picture that a DSLR take (and might have added some artifacts) and compare them. Also the attached pictures are nowhere near 4K resolution to safely compare. Don't forget that also the TV is upscaling everything to it's native resolution, so you you have to take into account that also.

I'm not saying that you method is wrong, but rather not 100% foolproof.
But thanks for the analysis
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post #64 of 261 Old 02-18-2016, 05:03 AM
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Nobody is going to redo the master in 4K if it's already in 2K.
What we'll get for now on current UHD Blu ray is upscaled 2K DCI with HDR.
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post #65 of 261 Old 02-18-2016, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Surfdrifter View Post
I'm not 100% sure, but I think you should better trust your eyes, rather than take a compressed picture that a DSLR take (and might have added some artifacts) and compare them. Also the attached pictures are nowhere near 4K resolution to safely compare. Don't forget that also the TV is upscaling everything to it's native resolution, so you you have to take into account that also.

I'm not saying that you method is wrong, but rather not 100% foolproof.
But thanks for the analysis
These are 1:1 crops of the 16 megapixel image with a very high quality lens. Trust me the camera can see better than my eyes can. The camera doesn’t lie or get confused like my eyes can.

If you still are not satisfied with that would you like me to use the 50 Megapixel camera instead? I could do that but it won’t show anything different as that resolution far exceeds what the display can show.

Upscaling is just a word people came up with when they couldn't explain why one display looked different than another display. Upscaling is just a myth.
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post #66 of 261 Old 02-18-2016, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
These are 1:1 crops of the 16 megapixel image with a very high quality lens. Trust me the camera can see better than my eyes can. The camera doesn’t lie or get confused like my eyes can.

If you still are not satisfied with that would you like me to use the 50 Megapixel camera instead? I could do that but it won’t show anything different as that resolution far exceeds what the display can show.

Upscaling is just a word people came up with when they couldn't explain why one display looked different than another display. Upscaling is just a myth.
I certainly hope my eyes can see better than a 16 megapixel camera. Since our eyes are supposed to easily see much, much better than camera that has even 200 megapixels.

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post #67 of 261 Old 02-18-2016, 08:06 AM
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Everybody chill.
The Martian is definitely upsacled from 2K or even 1080p or a DVD.
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post #68 of 261 Old 02-18-2016, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
I certainly hope my eyes can see better than a 16 megapixel camera. Since our eyes are supposed to easily see much, much better than camera that has even 200 megapixels.
Please provide any evidence at all to support your statement.

No consumer camera or Professional photography camera for that matter has 200 megapixels and yet people produce perfectly acceptable large size prints from 20 megapixel cameras.

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post #69 of 261 Old 02-18-2016, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
These are 1:1 crops of the 16 megapixel image with a very high quality lens. Trust me the camera can see better than my eyes can. The camera doesn’t lie or get confused like my eyes can.



If you still are not satisfied with that would you like me to use the 50 Megapixel camera instead? I could do that but it won’t show anything different as that resolution far exceeds what the display can show.



Upscaling is just a word people came up with when they couldn't explain why one display looked different than another display. Upscaling is just a myth.

I didn't have any intention to upset you, which clearly I did.

Sorry for that, but I wanted to express my feeling that your tests might not be 100% accurate.


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post #70 of 261 Old 02-18-2016, 11:50 AM
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Question

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Originally Posted by Surfdrifter View Post
I didn't have any intention to upset you, which clearly I did.

Sorry for that, but I wanted to express my feeling that your tests might not be 100% accurate.


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I am not upset. I was just providing input as to why I believe those pictures accurately represent precisely what the display is showing.

“Feeling” that my tests are not 100% accurate and demonstrating they are not accurate are two totally different things. Do you have any evidence showing that they are not accurate? Do you have any thoughts on how to perform a more accurate test?
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post #71 of 261 Old 02-18-2016, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Please provide any evidence at all to support your statement.

No consumer camera or Professional photography camera for that matter has 200 megapixels and yet people produce perfectly acceptable large size prints from 20 megapixel cameras.
Here is an article where they calculated what the human vision would be in megapixels.

http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/eye-resolution.html

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post #72 of 261 Old 02-18-2016, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I am not upset. I was just providing input as to why I believe those pictures accurately represent precisely what the display is showing.

“Feeling” that my tests are not 100% accurate and demonstrating they are not accurate are two totally different things. Do you have any evidence showing that they are not accurate? Do you have any thoughts on how to perform a more accurate test?
Theoritically, I would prefer to examine the demultiplexed files on an editor (such as Premiere) from both BD and UHD, but since there is no commercially available (at least I think) UHD-ROM drive, I would try to have on the same monitor connected both a Blu-ray drive and the UHD drive and have the movie paused at the same frame and do an AB comparing while switching inputs.

I don't have evidence that what you do is not accurate, but i would rather not shoot pictures of displays, because, it MIGHT add some artifacts or even the room environment might have slightly changed between the two photos. It's better to have less variables when conducting tests
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post #73 of 261 Old 02-18-2016, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Surfdrifter View Post
Theoritically, I would prefer to examine the demultiplexed files on an editor (such as Premiere) from both BD and UHD, but since there is no commercially available (at least I think) UHD-ROM drive, I would try to have on the same monitor connected both a Blu-ray drive and the UHD drive and have the movie paused at the same frame and do an AB comparing while switching inputs.

I don't have evidence that what you do is not accurate, but i would rather not shoot pictures of displays, because, it MIGHT add some artifacts or even the room environment might have slightly changed between the two photos. It's better to have less variables when conducting tests
I can tell you that I specifically controlled the room lighting between the tests. It was performed at night with all window shades drawn and the door closed. The camera was placed on a fixed tripod and was not moved in-between tests. There were no variables that were changed other than the fact that a 1080p blu ray was used in one test and a UHD Blu ray was used in the other tests.

I had to perform the final test where the UHD Blu ray player was hooked directly into the TV to prove that the player wasn’t downscaling and then upscaling again because of the HDCP error. I think that test clearly proves that it isn’t doing that.
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post #74 of 261 Old 02-18-2016, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I can tell you that I specifically controlled the room lighting between the tests. It was performed at night with all window shades drawn and the door closed. The camera was placed on a fixed tripod and was not moved in-between tests. There were no variables that were changed other than the fact that a 1080p blu ray was used in one test and a UHD Blu ray was used in the other tests.

I had to perform the final test where the UHD Blu ray player was hooked directly into the TV to prove that the player wasn’t downscaling and then upscaling again because of the HDCP error. I think that test clearly proves that it isn’t doing that.


Here's what is not being considered. ...

The individual tv companies processing power to begin with.


Having owned a Sony 4k tv before my samsung tvs, I can tell you that the processing was much better. It was sharper and 1080p looked very 4k on it.

When I moved to a samsung, the picture just sucked. It was very soft compared to the sony. The samsung I have now is better, but 1080 still isn't as sharp as sony. Vizio's always looked sharp in store too.

So I think some tvs will see the extra sharpness and some wont.
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post #75 of 261 Old 02-18-2016, 06:39 PM
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For those worried about the movies with 2K masters, this reviewer is starting to believe that issue has been way overblown.

With reviewing kingsman, it beats the blu ray in every area including resolution /sharpness, I did comparisons last night and I agree with his assessment. He puts both martian uhd and kingsman uhd on his highly recommended list.

http://ultrahd.highdefdigest.com/306...ahdbluray.html

Heres is also the martian uhd review, again he notes the picture is sharper and has more detail. He does site a couple of noisey scenes where they used inferior cameras and then upscaled it, but the positives FAR outweigh the minor negatives.


http://ultrahd.highdefdigest.com/306...ahdbluray.html
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post #76 of 261 Old 02-19-2016, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Here's what is not being considered. ...

The individual tv companies processing power to begin with.


Having owned a Sony 4k tv before my samsung tvs, I can tell you that the processing was much better. It was sharper and 1080p looked very 4k on it.

When I moved to a samsung, the picture just sucked. It was very soft compared to the sony. The samsung I have now is better, but 1080 still isn't as sharp as sony. Vizio's always looked sharp in store too.

So I think some tvs will see the extra sharpness and some wont.
I've been wondering about the processing power and upscaling abilities for 1080/720p between 4k displays, too. Thanks for the comparisons. Perhaps differences would become more apparent by comparing upconversions of 1080p multiburst patterns.These multiburst patterns from a test Blu-ray are ultracrisp on my 1080p plasma, and I tried comparing multiburst varying line widths to simlar 1080i/p detail widths on a 4k-master DI Blu-ray and other HD in 2014 ( here).

Might need one of the magnifying loupes I linked at the end of the last sentence above after upconverting 1080/720p to 4k. Maybe that would reveal superior upscaling performance of a 4k UHD Blu-ray disc player over a 4k display or vice versa. From a recent sspears post in the LCD forum, looks like it will be next year before the 4k version of the Spears-Munsil calibration Blu-ray appears.

You're in knowlegable company commenting on video processing differences between 4k displays. A Japanese professor, who once headed NHK's upcoming 8k broadcasting project, wrote about why variations exist (see overview link), not mentioning brands. With his team's full-1080 HD upconversion process to 4k or 8k in realtime and exceeding theoretical Nyquist resolution limits, they're suggesting the 'look' compares favorably to true 4k or 8k to produce more programming at the two boosted-format resolutions. EDIT: Full-HD (FHD) means the 1080, not 720p, format. -- John

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post #77 of 261 Old 02-24-2016, 09:17 PM
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I wonder if they plan on putting Baraka out in 4K considering they just made a 8k scan recently.
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post #78 of 261 Old 02-24-2016, 10:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
For those worried about the movies with 2K masters, this reviewer is starting to believe that issue has been way overblown. With reviewing kingsman, it beats the blu ray in every area including resolution /sharpness, I did comparisons last night and I agree with his assessment. He puts both martian uhd and kingsman uhd on his highly recommended list.
I do not think there is any debate that UHD Blu Ray disks are superior. Here are a few reasons:
  1. 2K resolution is slightly better than 1080p
  2. Even if resolution is somewhat similar, bitrate is much higher because it is derived from the DCI which has even higher bitrate
  3. UHD disks have HDR grading
  4. It is possible the disks contain a version which was upscaled to UHD using good algorithms

So yes UHD disks are better. But that is not my point. My point is the resolution is not real UHD/4K. They are selling a souped up version of normal Blu-Rays.

Please visit the YouTube HDR (Chromecast Ultra) Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheHDRChannel
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post #79 of 261 Old 02-24-2016, 11:04 PM
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I do not think there is any debate that UHD Blu Ray disks are superior. Here are a few reasons:
  1. 2K resolution is slightly better than 1080p
  2. Even if resolution is somewhat similar, bitrate is much higher because it is derived from the DCI which has even higher bitrate
  3. UHD disks have HDR grading
  4. It is possible the disks contain a version which was upscaled to UHD using good algorithms

So yes UHD disks are better. But that is not my point. My point is the resolution is not real UHD/4K. They are selling a souped up version of normal Blu-Rays.

Some scenes on these 1st discs look true 4k, while other scenes look 3k (better than 1080p but not quite 4k).

I'm getting about 5 more uhd movies tomorrow from Sony's lot and the warner lot. Anxious to see how chappie looks since it's from a truer 4k source.
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post #80 of 261 Old 02-26-2016, 03:38 PM
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Spiderman 2 is grainy.
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post #81 of 261 Old 02-26-2016, 04:35 PM
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I'm missing all this about 2K and 4K and upscaling. It's about HDR AND GRADING IT uniformally. That's what makes some of these discs stunning. Sorry for the intrusion.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
We will see. I was initially a skeptic, but hearing from some reviewers that you can see the difference between a standard BR and a 4K BR on a 65" HDTV from 10' gives me hope. I have a 128" diagonal 2.35:1 screen ( and sit around 10' away ) - I'm betting I see an improvement for sure. If true, I'm willing to replace my collection ( slowly ) while buying only 4K Blu Rays going forward. Really, if we don't get a better source material ( and streaming will be a problem for a lot of us for years ) no amount of projector improvement will matter. in fact, in my experience, the better the projector, the more ruthless it shows flaws in the source. It's like pouring cheap wine into an expensive Riedel glass.
For those of us with projectors, this rings true. In some ways, my softish Infocus IN76 720P projector benefited from it's lack of res. That sounds crazy, but it sort of blurred (for lack of a better word) artifacts together and created a soft, pleasant picture. Where as my 600ES puts everything right there in your face. It has a great upscaler, so most Blu rays look really good, but watching DirecTV can be painful at times.

For this reason, I'm looking forward to UHD discs, even if right now I can't take advantage of the HDR. I'm looking forward to those cleaner source images to take advantage of the resolution.

A LOT is hidden on little 60 and 70" TVs (I have a 75" Sammy LED in my living room, and the picture is great, but...) that become in your face artifacts when you have 10-11' wide front projection screens, or 100"+ 1.78 screens.

So, even if it's 2k material upscaled with equipment far better than what's in our projectors, TVs or blu ray players, and had tuned, it's going to generally be a superior end result to a blu ray.
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post #83 of 261 Old 02-26-2016, 06:11 PM
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Spiderman 2 is grainy.
You can try user mode and use the noise reduction area and kick it up from 0 to +1
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post #84 of 261 Old 02-26-2016, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dkyork View Post
Spiderman 2 is grainy.
So is it possible that these movies were always grainy or noisy and we just couldn't tell because of the resolution? I for one notice a lot more grain and digital noise in 4K content (Netflix, Amazon) than I see in 1080p content. In fact it's one of the few differences I can see in non-HDR 4K content.

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post #85 of 261 Old 02-26-2016, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathloki View Post
So is it possible that these movies were always grainy or noisy and we just couldn't tell because of the resolution? I for one notice a lot more grain and digital noise in 4K content (Netflix, Amazon) than I see in 1080p content. In fact it's one of the few differences I can see in non-HDR 4K content.
One question is whether the grain is more apparent on film transfers vs. movies/shows filmed on digital cameras.

This is beginning to sound a lot like the early Blu-Ray discussions, where people discussed the grain they were seeing that didn't exist on DVD's.
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post #86 of 261 Old 02-26-2016, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
One question is whether the grain is more apparent on film transfers vs. movies/shows filmed on digital cameras.

This is beginning to sound a lot like the early Blu-Ray discussions, where people discussed the grain they were seeing that didn't exist on DVD's.
Well things shot on film will have grain but digital isn't perfect either, that just has noise instead of grain, especially scenes shot at a high ISO.

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post #87 of 261 Old 02-26-2016, 07:16 PM
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I don't have this grainy issue in some other uhd movies. I own 6 of them now and this one was the worst with grain.
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post #88 of 261 Old 02-26-2016, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrathloki View Post
So is it possible that these movies were always grainy or noisy and we just couldn't tell because of the resolution? I for one notice a lot more grain and digital noise in 4K content (Netflix, Amazon) than I see in 1080p content. In fact it's one of the few differences I can see in non-HDR 4K content.
Most of the 4k on Netflix sucks and is way too noisey.

Blacklist season 1 though is awesome.
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post #89 of 261 Old 02-26-2016, 07:26 PM
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I like dynamic mode in the K-8500, but I have to use 'user mode' to get rid of the grain on Spidy.
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post #90 of 261 Old 02-26-2016, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Most of the 4k on Netflix sucks and is way too noisey.

Blacklist season 1 though is awesome.
From the smart hub or the K-8500? No grain on 4K when you use the smart hub, except you can't get DD+
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