Lists of fake and real 4K UHD Blu-Rays (2K vs 4K) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 261 Old 01-27-2016, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Lists of fake and real 4K UHD Blu-Rays (2K vs 4K)

Below is a list of 4K UHD Blu-Ray disks available for pre-order on Amazon, along with the actual format the movies were mastered in (from IMDB).

Potentially fake 4K UHD?
  • The Martian: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format) - Based on the discussion in this thread it seems some part of The Martian might be remastered in 4K, but it's unclear if and how much of it.
  • Kingsman: The Secret Service: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • X-Men: Days of Future Past: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Life of Pi: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Exodus: Gods and Kings: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Fantastic Four: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Hitman: Agent 47: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Maze Runner: The Scorch Trials: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Wild: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Ender's Game: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Mad Max: Fury Road: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Pineapple Express: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Concussion: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)

Probably real 4K UHD
  • The Maze Runner: Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format) - this one is weird as the source is partially 2K
  • The Amazing Spider-Man 2: Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
  • Chappie: Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
  • Sicario: Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
  • Salt: Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
  • Hancock: Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
  • The Expendables 3: Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
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post #2 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 08:56 AM
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So this doesn't take into account the UHD titles that aren't using the Digital Intermediates previously used? Titles like The Martian that will use the existing 5K raw footage to create a new 4K master. Using the 5K raw footage and upscaled special effects to create a new master.

This list assumes that the existing Digital Intermediate will be used. Which is not the case with all UHD titles coming out.

And the list doesn't seem to take into account HDR? The titles will also need to have HDR info added. And unless the original master had this info, work needs to be done to create it.

And if you have to go through the effort of color correcting everything for HDR etc, it certainly makes sense to create a new Master at that time if the footage is there to do it.
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post #3 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
So this doesn't take into account the UHD titles that aren't using the Digital Intermediates previously used? Titles like The Martian that will use the existing 5K raw footage to create a new 4K master. Using the 5K raw footage and upscaled special effects to create a new master.

This list assumes that the existing Digital Intermediate will be used. Which is not the case with all UHD titles coming out.
Do you have any source stating that the existing Digital Intermediates will not be used?
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post #4 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you have any source stating that the existing Digital Intermediates will not be used?
I highly doubt they will invest money to remaster these, especially since the special effects were not done in 4K. Time will tell. Actually, if the special effects were done in 2K I would directly discount these as "fake 4K".
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post #5 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 11:43 AM
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I dunno, guys. We could just wait until the discs are released or the studios confirm one way or another. I know it's crazy to wait for facts instead of speculating, but we could try it just this once.

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post #6 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
So this doesn't take into account the UHD titles that aren't using the Digital Intermediates previously used? Titles like The Martian that will use the existing 5K raw footage to create a new 4K master. Using the 5K raw footage and upscaled special effects to create a new master.

This list assumes that the existing Digital Intermediate will be used. Which is not the case with all UHD titles coming out.
Do you have a source with confirmation of this, or are you assuming?

The Digital Intermediate is the completed film. All editing and post-production are done on the Digital Intermediate. The raw 5k footage is unedited, not color graded, and has no visual effects. In order to create a new master from the raw source footage, the entire movie needs to be reconstructed.

While not impossible, I would not automatically assume that every studio is going to do this for every title. Especially not for any of the titles shot with 2k cameras, which the majority of the UHD Blu-ray launch wave were.
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post #7 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Do you have a source with confirmation of this, or are you assuming?

The Digital Intermediate is the completed film. All editing and post-production are done on the Digital Intermediate. The raw 5k footage is unedited, not color graded, and has no visual effects. In order to create a new master from the raw source footage, the entire movie needs to be reconstructed.

While not impossible, I would not automatically assume that every studio is going to do this for every title. Especially not for any of the titles shot with 2k cameras, which the majority of the UHD Blu-ray launch wave were.

There was an article that was posted that discussed The Martian specifically. I think it was in the Master HDR thread.


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post #8 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 05:54 PM
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There was an article that was posted that discussed The Martian specifically. I think it was in the Master HDR thread.


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Very true, but also maybe sort of proves the point?

If it is SO unusual and extraordinary to go back to the original RAW footage that it merits a special article, it might really be the exception rather than the rule.

I do hope studios invest the millions of dollars to at least work from the best elements available, rather than just the existing DI, but I am skeptical.

That said, by all accounts of people that have seen footage from some of these "fake" UHD films, they do look quite a bit better than the blu-ray editions.
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post #9 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
There was an article that was posted that discussed The Martian specifically. I think it was in the Master HDR thread.
Is this the article? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYe77Q3U0AAsN9R.jpg

It was linked to from here: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....271447&page=14

Also notice they mention only some scenes were shot in 5K and converted to 4K, I assume the 2K ones are the ones with special effects.

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post #10 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Do you have a source with confirmation of this, or are you assuming?

The Digital Intermediate is the completed film. All editing and post-production are done on the Digital Intermediate. The raw 5k footage is unedited, not color graded, and has no visual effects. In order to create a new master from the raw source footage, the entire movie needs to be reconstructed.

While not impossible, I would not automatically assume that every studio is going to do this for every title. Especially not for any of the titles shot with 2k cameras, which the majority of the UHD Blu-ray launch wave were.
Josh,

Some Fox exec tweeted confirmation: https://twitter.com/FinnJ/status/686724096059559937

And besides the Blu-ray.com forum thread posted earlier, there is also this AVS thread discussing this matter of "fake vs real 4k" and how it is not that black and white: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l-you-buy.html
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post #11 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
Do you have a source with confirmation of this, or are you assuming?

The Digital Intermediate is the completed film. All editing and post-production are done on the Digital Intermediate. The raw 5k footage is unedited, not color graded, and has no visual effects. In order to create a new master from the raw source footage, the entire movie needs to be reconstructed.

While not impossible, I would not automatically assume that every studio is going to do this for every title. Especially not for any of the titles shot with 2k cameras, which the majority of the UHD Blu-ray launch wave were.
This is what they are supposedly doing with the Martian and possibly with some other titles.

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post #12 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zmarty View Post
Is this the article? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYe77Q3U0AAsN9R.jpg

It was linked to from here: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread....271447&page=14

Also notice they mention only some scenes were shot in 5K and converted to 4K, I assume the 2K ones are the ones with special effects.
That is correct

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post #13 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 07:01 PM
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Very true, but also maybe sort of proves the point?

If it is SO unusual and extraordinary to go back to the original RAW footage that it merits a special article, it might really be the exception rather than the rule.

I do hope studios invest the millions of dollars to at least work from the best elements available, rather than just the existing DI, but I am skeptical.

That said, by all accounts of people that have seen footage from some of these "fake" UHD films, they do look quite a bit better than the blu-ray editions.
I would expect them to look better. Because if you did take the BD 2K edition and upscaled. It should look better than any scaling from a TV or BD player. Since those devices are doing real time upscaling. While for a UHD BD release, if they were to just take the 2K DI and upscale, they can upscale with High power computers and equipment. And can adjust individual scenes as needed. So even if a UHD does take the 2K DI intermediate, I expect it to easily look better than what we can get with our real time upscaling.

So in that situation I would still take the UHD BD over the BD.
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post #14 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 08:03 PM
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The DI does not eliminate a 4K master at all. Sony has already made 4k masters from the original sources that were higher then 2k and at first had a 2K DI. The original source is the real limiting factor.

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Originally Posted by Zhorik View Post
I did not know there is a UHD BD sub-forum on that site already and yet most new posts are about UHD in this sub-forum. Might be time for a UHD BD sub-forum here.

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I highly doubt they will invest money to remaster these, especially since the special effects were not done in 4K. Time will tell. Actually, if the special effects were done in 2K I would directly discount these as "fake 4K".
You should of named this thread 'List of VFX done in 4K' since this is the low common denominator you are only interested in. Would of saved people a lot of time.

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post #15 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 09:35 PM
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Seems like a lot of wasted effort and duplicated work when they should have just made the DI at 4K. It's not like 4K mastering was difficult to access or overly expensive in the summer of 2015. 4K HDR was already available to consumer via streaming, and they knew consumer 4K discs were coming in less than a year.
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post #16 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 10:44 PM
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Mastering at 4k does cost a lot more in rendering time and all that - after all, if you're rendering 4 times as many pixels, it's going to take roughly four times as long, and considering the potential market, I don't see how redoing the VFX will be a good return on the money spent. It's not just a case of re rendering the scenes, but someone has to make sure they come out right. Because on a 2d video, shortcuts are taken that you cannot see, and those can easily break down if you just blindly reapply at a higher resolution.

In the case of the Martian, the VFX scenes are basically the scenes you want to see in 4K - all the outside scenes. Heck, the visors on the space suits are entirely VFX added in post, including reflections off the sun visor and off the visor itself. (There's a video showing the VFX applied on YouTube by the VFX company).

In the case of movies, the home video release is a minor source of additional income, so I think it's unlikely they will redo the VFX. Likely what happens is like the IMAX releases - the scenes shot in IMAX will be clearer, so the scenes shot in 4k will be clearer, while the 2k bits will be merely upscaled.

And given dropping physical disc sales, I doubt much investment will be made for UHD Blu-rays specifically. Heck, they probably will be quite expensive limiting the market further.
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post #17 of 261 Old 01-28-2016, 10:56 PM
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The FOX guy Finn, who released the statement about "the martian", has now gone on record to say that all of the FOX HDR movies are all built the same way as the martian, using the raw files first, and rebuilding the movie basically. dolby vision has also publicly said that they also begin with the raw files. i am going to assume that all studios will be doing it this way as this is the best way to do it and nobody wants be known as "the studio that half-asses it while everyone else does it right".

so basically the DI is thrown out the window and they start over and use whats best for a 4k version. then they do 4k coloring and HDR grading.
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post #18 of 261 Old 01-29-2016, 03:14 AM
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Sorry, but where does it say that they use 4K (or 5K) raw assets for any part of the actual resulting UHD Blu-Ray resolution?

The way I read that statement was that they use the 2K upconverted source material, together with 5K raw assets for color grading the 2K upconverted material. That is, they just change the color range of the upconverted pixels in the image, based on the 5K raw assets color information.

Did I misunderstand how they explained the process?
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post #19 of 261 Old 01-29-2016, 08:56 AM
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Lightbulb

I made a website where you can easily search between 'real' 'fake' and also for in-between/limited. The site is only 36 hours old so please excuse the odd/missing info on some titles. I am constantly updating before and after my real job.

www.realorfake4k.com

If you see any movies/tv shows listed that have incorrect info please send me a pm and explain or provide a source and I will update it.

--- EDIT September 1st---

The site is going strong as ever! I have over 250 movie and tv titles from UHD discs, Amazon, Netflix, etc. You can easily search by category "Real 4K" "Nearly/Partially 4K" and "Fake 4K" or if you just want a simple list of real/fake I have added that as well. I have been adding a lot of features over the past 6 months and I'll be adding more in the coming days also. Thanks to everyone who has given me support and pointers!
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Sometimes UHD discs aren't really 4K...
I don't have a "home theater"... I have a "home cinema".  Nobody is singing and dancing in my house.

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post #20 of 261 Old 01-29-2016, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
Some Fox exec tweeted confirmation: https://twitter.com/FinnJ/status/686724096059559937
Thanks for that. Very interesting.

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The FOX guy Finn, who released the statement about "the martian", has now gone on record to say that all of the FOX HDR movies are all built the same way as the martian, using the raw files first, and rebuilding the movie basically.
I found this statement in his original tweet of particular interest:

"All of this work is conducted by professionals, with filmmaker involvement and oversight."

It seems to me that would preclude older catalog titles where the filmmakers have died. Does this mean that Fox doesn't plan to release movies more than a handful of years old on the format? Or will the studio release them in UHD but not re-grade them for HDR? Or does that "filmmaker involvement and oversight" get thrown out the window in some instances?

Personally, I'm not a fan of revisionism of old movies. If the movie wasn't made with HDR in mind, I'm not interested in watching it that way. I'd no more want to see The Sound of Music in HDR than I'd want to see Citizen Kane colorized.

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i am going to assume that all studios will be doing it this way as this is the best way to do it and nobody wants be known as "the studio that half-asses it while everyone else does it right".
Even Warner? Not so sure about that.
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post #21 of 261 Old 01-29-2016, 02:28 PM
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Thanks for that. Very interesting.







I found this statement in his original tweet of particular interest:



"All of this work is conducted by professionals, with filmmaker involvement and oversight."



It seems to me that would preclude older catalog titles where the filmmakers have died. Does this mean that Fox doesn't plan to release movies more than a handful of years old on the format? Or will the studio release them in UHD but not re-grade them for HDR? Or does that "filmmaker involvement and oversight" get thrown out the window in some instances?



Personally, I'm not a fan of revisionism of old movies. If the movie wasn't made with HDR in mind, I'm not interested in watching it that way. I'd no more want to see The Sound of Music in HDR than I'd want to see Citizen Kane colorized.







Even Warner? Not so sure about that.

I would say "when available" in cases when the director or someone else involved is not available they may try someone else. We can only "hope" that HDR isn't used all of the time, but instead they go back and redo some of the older films to "bring out" what was always there, but limited due to tech of the time.


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post #22 of 261 Old 01-30-2016, 10:33 PM
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Also notice they mention only some scenes were shot in 5K and converted to 4K, I assume the 2K ones are the ones with special effects.
On Ridley Scott's last few "big" movies , he does usually overshoot the resolution. They shoot at 5k red so they have more real estate for the 3d effect they can use in post. But they still center around a 4k base size as their intended framing .
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post #23 of 261 Old 02-03-2016, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Pate View Post
Sorry, but where does it say that they use 4K (or 5K) raw assets for any part of the actual resulting UHD Blu-Ray resolution?

The way I read that statement was that they use the 2K upconverted source material, together with 5K raw assets for color grading the 2K upconverted material. That is, they just change the color range of the upconverted pixels in the image, based on the 5K raw assets color information.

Did I misunderstand how they explained the process?
Agree with your summary in general and read the statement the same way, summarizing my conclusions in a post yesterday. -- John
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post #24 of 261 Old 02-03-2016, 09:55 PM
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Did I misunderstand how they explained the process?
Clearly
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post #25 of 261 Old 02-09-2016, 12:44 AM - Thread Starter
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"Here’s the dirty secret about the industry’s move to 4k or higher displays: The majority of modern movies are either photographed digitally at 2k resolution or have a 2k Digital Intermediate."

http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/ul...not-always-4k/

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post #26 of 261 Old 02-09-2016, 02:39 AM
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The FOX guy Finn, who released the statement about "the martian", has now gone on record to say that all of the FOX HDR movies are all built the same way as the martian, using the raw files first, and rebuilding the movie basically. dolby vision has also publicly said that they also begin with the raw files. i am going to assume that all studios will be doing it this way as this is the best way to do it and nobody wants be known as "the studio that half-asses it while everyone else does it right".

so basically the DI is thrown out the window and they start over and use whats best for a 4k version. then they do 4k coloring and HDR grading.
I hope so, because I want to experience it in 4k. I think in about a week or so, we will find out how well it stacks against it's bu-ray counterpart, and a thorough examination will tell us how much of it real 4k.
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post #27 of 261 Old 02-09-2016, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by zmarty View Post
"Here’s the dirty secret about the industry’s move to 4k or higher displays: The majority of modern movies are either photographed digitally at 2k resolution or have a 2k Digital Intermediate."

http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/ul...not-always-4k/
The combination of Amazon's poor 4K UHD sorting and Josh's article posted above was the push I needed to create my website to help sort through the mess of releases

On the bright side, special effects that were made on a separate 'layer' can be scanned independently from the film negative and tweaked a bit to offer a better upscale. Fully CG movies should see a great bump in quality as well, even fully 2K movies like The Peanuts Movie (2K CG + 2K DI) and Lego Movie (2K CG + 2.8K Live Shots + 2K DI)

Sometimes UHD discs aren't really 4K...
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post #28 of 261 Old 02-09-2016, 09:37 AM
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There's a difference of interpretation of Finn's Tweet post apparently. The post link is in post No.16 above.

Twice in the first three paragraphs he states that 2k versions of movies such as "The Martian" are upconverted to 4k. Such upconversions can't deliver the full-4k detail possible by using 4k (or higher) files from cameras such as the Red models used for"The Martian." All files were downconverted to the 2k used for the master digital intermediate. So discussing work done on the "4k Martian productiion," no mattter how often you refer to it as 4k, still means a movie file upconverted from 2k to 4k. (BTW, there's no actual film involved AFAIK with Martian [see IMDB.com full techical specs], only digital cinema files.)

Then saying (last Tweet paragraph) HDR and enhanced color from 4K+ RAW files are used for detail work in the "4k domain" means 2k-to-4k domain, which differs from using all the highest resolution possible from potential true-4k+ RAW camera files. -- John
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Last edited by John Mason; 02-09-2016 at 11:07 AM. Reason: typo
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post #29 of 261 Old 02-10-2016, 12:01 AM
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Below is a list of 4K UHD Blu-Ray disks available for pre-order on Amazon, along with the actual format the movies were mastered in (from IMDB).

Potentially fake 4K UHD?
  • The Martian: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format) - Based on the discussion in this thread it seems some part of The Martian might be remastered in 4K, but it's unclear if and how much of it.
  • Kingsman: The Secret Service: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • X-Men: Days of Future Past: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Life of Pi: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Exodus: Gods and Kings: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Fantastic Four: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Hitman: Agent 47: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Maze Runner: The Scorch Trials: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Wild: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)
  • Ender's Game: Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format)

Probably real 4K UHD
  • The Maze Runner: Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format) - this one is weird as the source is partially 2K
  • The Amazing Spider-Man 2: Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
  • Chappie: Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
  • Sicario: Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
  • Salt: Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
  • Hancock: Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
  • The Expendables 3: Digital Intermediate (4K) (master format)
This time I'm staying away from the bleeding edge. Most films have CG effects done at 2K until I see just how jarring it will be to see live action footage at 4K with CG at 2K I'm waiting. The CG in Firefly comes to mind.
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post #30 of 261 Old 02-10-2016, 05:01 PM
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This time I'm staying away from the bleeding edge. Most films have CG effects done at 2K until I see just how jarring it will be to see live action footage at 4K with CG at 2K I'm waiting. The CG in Firefly comes to mind.
I'm all in. I have twelve UHD titles on pre-order right now. And I'm sure I'll be buying some more over the next few months. Well as long as I can get them for under $30. I have no desire to pay $35 or $40 per title. $25 would be ideal though.
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