Will 4k UHD Blu-ray discs be the last consumer physical media format for movies? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 159 Old 01-23-2019, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Rgb View Post
All that said, don't hold out for some next disc format- 4K UHD discs are awesome on the tech specs, and with each succeeding format (DVD>BD>UHD>???) fewer catalog titles are published to the new format, especially rare/niche films and docs.
So true.

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post #32 of 159 Old 01-24-2019, 05:48 AM
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All that said, don't hold out for some next disc format- 4K UHD discs are awesome on the tech specs, and with each succeeding format (DVD>BD>UHD>???) fewer catalog titles are published to the new format, especially rare/niche films and docs.
I try not to hold out for any media - my aim is to always buy the best version of my favorite movies/TV shows and right now UHD is a killer leap over 1080p Blu-ray in this regard. As I alluded to in my prior post, the advancement of 4K HFR, 8K HFR, VR content will necessitate another physical format, but it won't do much for the majority of catalog content. Let's face it, there are diminishing returns for all but the best produced and best preserved catalog titles. I believe that - alongside the risk of underselling - is why we don't see as many catalog titles with each generation. We like to talk about 35mm film resolving 6K-8K, 70mm film resolving 16K or something ridiculous, but that's absolute theoretical under ideal conditions. At present, the bump to 4K with WCG/HDR has resulted in some phenomenal releases, but also some "meh" releases. "You can't polish a turd", the saying goes. I don't expect "Miami Connection" to get a 4K release anytime soon - but I will totally buy it if it improves on the 1080p Blu-ray in any way. On the other hand, an 8K 4:4:4 release of "Ben-Hur"? Sign me up.

P.S. Are we including systems like "Kaleidescape" as physical media? Is the differentiation between content that is streamed over the Internet vs played locally? Or is the distinction that it needs to come in an individually wrapped package? Technically, you just store the same content you would get on a disc, but on a hard drive instead. In the end it's still just a video file stored on the physical medium, unlike dynamically compressed streaming over IP.
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post #33 of 159 Old 01-24-2019, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by nathanddrews View Post
I try not to hold out for any media - my aim is to always buy the best version of my favorite movies/TV shows and right now UHD is a killer leap over 1080p Blu-ray in this regard. As I alluded to in my prior post, the advancement of 4K HFR, 8K HFR, VR content will necessitate another physical format, but it won't do much for the majority of catalog content. Let's face it, there are diminishing returns for all but the best produced and best preserved catalog titles. I believe that - alongside the risk of underselling - is why we don't see as many catalog titles with each generation. We like to talk about 35mm film resolving 6K-8K, 70mm film resolving 16K or something ridiculous, but that's absolute theoretical under ideal conditions. At present, the bump to 4K with WCG/HDR has resulted in some phenomenal releases, but also some "meh" releases. "You can't polish a turd", the saying goes. I don't expect "Miami Connection" to get a 4K release anytime soon - but I will totally buy it if it improves on the 1080p Blu-ray in any way. On the other hand, an 8K 4:4:4 release of "Ben-Hur"? Sign me up.

P.S. Are we including systems like "Kaleidescape" as physical media? Is the differentiation between content that is streamed over the Internet vs played locally? Or is the distinction that it needs to come in an individually wrapped package? Technically, you just store the same content you would get on a disc, but on a hard drive instead. In the end it's still just a video file stored on the physical medium, unlike dynamically compressed streaming over IP.

Nathan,
I agree with the Ben Hur comment one of if not my favorite film yet I bet the number who would want this is diminishing rather precipitously as we speak.

Comments are made regarding the color timing on 2001 but I'm pretty comfortable saying that this is it for that film. I think this is just what's so. When a classic like War of the worlds still hasn't made it to Blu Ray speaks volumes. My issue all along is the unfortunate fact that I don't have an unlimited lifespan.

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post #34 of 159 Old 01-24-2019, 07:25 AM
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Nathan,
I agree with the Ben Hur comment one of if not my favorite film yet I bet the number who would want this is diminishing rather precipitously as we speak.

Comments are made regarding the color timing on 2001 but I'm pretty comfortable saying that this is it for that film. I think this is just what's so. When a classic like War of the worlds still hasn't made it to Blu Ray speaks volumes. My issue all along is the unfortunate fact that I don't have an unlimited lifespan.

Art
Yes, 4K BT2020 10bit/color/pixel WGC HDR probably captures most/all the information on vintage celluloid sources.

Moving forwards, as more content is shot and created at 8K 4:4:4 12-16bit/color/pixel, then displays and disc formats to match make sense.

re: lifespan

Well, according to those that have been there and back and Eastern (Buddist/Hindu) experts, we'll all be able to watch unlimited content at infinite spatial/color resolution when the time comes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records
http://www.akashicrecordsofsouls.com...ashic-records/
https://www.amazon.com/Proof-Heaven-.../dp/1451695195
https://www.monroeinstitute.org/blog...initiating-obe

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post #35 of 159 Old 01-24-2019, 07:47 AM
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Yes, us Shiny Disc Preppers will laugh as the hoards plead to see our formidable film collections of rare cuts and director commentaries, uber multi disc sets and complete SuperBit DVD collections, clawing up the sides of the streaming Walled gardens like culture starved zombies from World War Z
SuperBit DVD! Holy crap, I forgot about those!
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post #36 of 159 Old 01-24-2019, 08:33 AM
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SuperBit DVD! Holy crap, I forgot about those!
Been fun finding them at yard sales/thrift for a buck or so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superbit


(not me in the video )
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post #37 of 159 Old 01-24-2019, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nathanddrews View Post
... Let's face it, there are diminishing returns for all but the best produced and best preserved catalog titles....
That's why I'm slightly baffled when the studios spend their limited resources on producing 4K UHD Blu-rays, with an Atmos mix, of films like "Groundhog Day". I mean, I love that film, but can't they spend their time on other, more "cinematic", titles?


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Originally Posted by nathanddrews View Post
...P.S. Are we including systems like "Kaleidescape" as physical media? Is the differentiation between content that is streamed over the Internet vs played locally? Or is the distinction that it needs to come in an individually wrapped package? Technically, you just store the same content you would get on a disc, but on a hard drive instead. In the end it's still just a video file stored on the physical medium, unlike dynamically compressed streaming over IP.
I think Kaleidescape-like systems belong in the conversation. Especially when the player doesn't require authorization from the studio's servers before every playback, à la DIVX. That requirement negates one of the compelling reasons to buy physical media. Does Kaleidescape currently have that requirement?
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post #38 of 159 Old 01-24-2019, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by meli View Post
That's why I'm slightly baffled when the studios spend their limited resources on producing 4K UHD Blu-rays, with an Atmos mix, of films like "Groundhog Day". I mean, I love that film, but can't they spend their time on other, more "cinematic", titles?




I think Kaleidescape-like systems belong in the conversation. Especially when the player doesn't require authorization from the studio's servers before every playback, à la DIVX. That requirement negates one of the compelling reasons to buy physical media. Does Kaleidescape currently have that requirement?
Didn't believe you re: Groundhog Day, had to check-
https://www.amazon.com/Groundhog-Day...oundhog+day+4k

Yes, now a cult classic, but a 1080p BluRay probably good enough for that one, though I won't complain picking it up at thrift for $5 in a few years

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post #39 of 159 Old 01-24-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by nathanddrews View Post
P.S. Are we including systems like "Kaleidescape" as physical media? Is the differentiation between content that is streamed over the Internet vs played locally? Or is the distinction that it needs to come in an individually wrapped package? Technically, you just store the same content you would get on a disc, but on a hard drive instead. In the end it's still just a video file stored on the physical medium, unlike dynamically compressed streaming over IP.
The issue I have with any streaming/download service is control- with all common physical audio/video media released to date (except DiVX) you have the control over when/how to view and retain use rights and the same audio/video quality you bought indefinitely.

With stream/download business models, the provider can go out of business, change codecs or resolutions/compression ratio (artifacts)/metadata (HDR formats, etc) on a whim, discontinue titles due to license/IP issues, remove one cut and replace it with another due to creator or political correctness/censorship issues, begin inserting forced ads at a later date to increase revenue, and other means of exerting control moving forwards at tech improves.
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post #40 of 159 Old 01-24-2019, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by meli View Post
That's why I'm slightly baffled when the studios spend their limited resources on producing 4K UHD Blu-rays, with an Atmos mix, of films like "Groundhog Day". I mean, I love that film, but can't they spend their time on other, more "cinematic", titles?
Studios are trying to see if UHD BD are going anywhere. UHD BD players are coming down in price and becoming affordable. 4K TVs affordable for a couple years. Many people have 4K TV but never watch any 4K on them though there is a possibility they may be seeing some 4K anyway.


As for extras some of those including versions with commentary are available streaming.


Again, streaming has no COG attached to it other than the few pennies it costs to stream a title to a user.
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post #41 of 159 Old 01-24-2019, 12:58 PM
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FWIW, UHD "Groundhog Day" is revelatory compared to the 1080p Blu-ray.
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post #42 of 159 Old 01-24-2019, 01:17 PM
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Studios are trying to see if UHD BD are going anywhere. UHD BD players are coming down in price and becoming affordable. 4K TVs affordable for a couple years. Many people have 4K TV but never watch any 4K on them though there is a possibility they may be seeing some 4K anyway.


As for extras some of those including versions with commentary are available streaming.


Again, streaming has no COG attached to it other than the few pennies it costs to stream a title to a user.
Problem is, while 4K-pixel-count TV's have been around for many years, those that support all the HDR flavors (HDR10, HLG, DV, HDR10+, maybe more moving forwards), plus accurate support for BT2020/DCI P3, WCG, with true 10-12bit per color/pixel support, and do all this correctly (videophile-optimally), have been few and far between and/or very expensive and/or only recent vintage models.

Dynamic, well executed tone mapping for HDR<>SDR and 709<>2020 conversions is only now showing up in top model 4K disc players (UB820) and UHD TV's.

It has been said here many times- 4K UHD with WCG, bt2020, 10 bit color and HDR represents a much bigger leap in image quality from 1080p BluRay (8 bit/color, bt709, no HDR) than 1080p BluRay was from the best authored DVD's. And the 4K pixel count is the LEAST important of the improvements for HT videophiles.
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post #43 of 159 Old 01-24-2019, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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The issue I have with any streaming/download service is control- with all common physical audio/video media released to date (except DiVX) you have the control over when/how to view and retain use rights and the same audio/video quality you bought indefinitely.

With stream/download business models, the provider can go out of business, change codecs or resolutions/compression ratio (artifacts)/metadata (HDR formats, etc) on a whim, discontinue titles due to license/IP issues, remove one cut and replace it with another due to creator or political correctness/censorship issues, begin inserting forced ads at a later date to increase revenue, and other means of exerting control moving forwards at tech improves.

I guess the ideal for downloadable movies would be that you could keep the downloads indefinitely on a hard drive, and that it not require authorization before each playback. Just like buying music downloads via iTunes.

I suppose there's always the risk that a company could, if your device was connected to the internet, go in and delete your download (like Amazon did with people's downloads of Orwell's 1984).
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post #44 of 159 Old 01-24-2019, 01:25 PM
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I guess the ideal for downloadable movies would be that you could keep the downloads indefinitely on a hard drive, and that it not require authorization before each playback. Just like buying music downloads via iTunes.

I suppose there's always the risk that a company could, if your device was connected to the internet, go in and delete your download (like Amazon did with people's downloads of Orwell's 1984).
Correct.

No one has the right to come onto your property and take your CD's or DVD's/BD's (or vinyl, cassettes, etc), but stream/downloaded media gives them that power.

Or if your server/disk crashes and you need to re-download, the provider is no longer in business. Or if they are, they no longer have that title available due to IP issues. Or the new copy is a different inferior encode. Or the new version has scenes edited/changed. Etc
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post #45 of 159 Old 01-24-2019, 01:55 PM
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Problem is, while 4K-pixel-count TV's have been around for many years, those that support all the HDR flavors (HDR10, HLG, DV, HDR10+, maybe more moving forwards), plus accurate support for BT2020/DCI P3, WCG, with true 10-12bit color pixel support, and do all this correctly, have been few and far between and only recent vintage models.

Dynamic, well executed tone mapping for HDR>SDR, SDR>HDR, and 709<>2020 conversions is only now showing up in top model 4K disc players (UB820) and UHD TV's.

It has been said here many times- 4K UHD with WCG, bt2020, 10 bit color and HDR represents a much bigger leap in image quality from 1080p BluRay (8 bit/color, bt709, no HDR) than 1080p BluRay was from the best authored DVD's. And the 4K pixel count is the LEAST important of the improvements.
Sorry, though HDR is nice it does require extra color grading and I find the higher pixel count very noticeable and pleasing. Maybe that's because I've worked with video for 30 years and can see the difference. And of course computer monitors have long had 24-bit color. The average Joe may not notice the higher pixel count and they may not notice that content is HDR either.
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post #46 of 159 Old 01-25-2019, 02:08 PM
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Sorry, though HDR is nice it does require extra color grading and I find the higher pixel count very noticeable and pleasing. Maybe that's because I've worked with video for 30 years and can see the difference. And of course computer monitors have long had 24-bit color. The average Joe may not notice the higher pixel count and they may not notice that content is HDR either.
Didn't mean to imply 4K res wasn't a Good Thing, just relative to the color & contrast improvements on UHD BD vs 1080p BD.

I'd like an 8K desktop monitor (and projector) too

I meant 10-12 bit/color (R-G-B) (or 30-36 bit/pixel).
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post #47 of 159 Old 01-29-2019, 02:06 PM
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It is interesting that we are discussing moving past UHD when DVD still is the most produced format. It is somewhat ironic we are discussing how studios would love to go digital to control rights, yet they also keep releasing a very easily pirated/copied medium in DVD. You'd think they'd make bluray the lowest format. It's not like bluray players are expensive. The only area that it'd be a true hardship is portable players like in cars, but at the same time if you're not a little kid I think you'd rather use your personal phone/tablet in the car.

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post #48 of 159 Old 01-29-2019, 02:40 PM
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It is interesting that we are discussing moving past UHD when DVD still is the most produced format.
Is that the discussion here ? I think it is simply the belief that UHD BD is the last physical format.
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post #49 of 159 Old 02-03-2019, 06:46 PM
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Didn't believe you re: Groundhog Day, had to check-
https://www.amazon.com/Groundhog-Day...oundhog+day+4k
And it's an actual 4K remaster, unlike so many other UHD releases were are just upscaled 2K.
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post #50 of 159 Old 02-04-2019, 10:49 AM
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And it's an actual 4K remaster, unlike so many other UHD releases were are just upscaled 2K.
As I stated before, Groundhog Day UHD looks incredible compared to its previous releases. As you probably know, the problem really comes down to the Digital Intermediate (DI) revolution of the early 2000s. The vast majority of "film-sourced/film-finished" movies prior to 2000 now on UHD are native 4K scans or higher. A handful of 90s-era movies had DIs that were locked to a fixed resolution (between 1.5K-2K, a couple were actually 4K). Those resolution-locked DIs movies will never be higher resolution without upscaling, but will benefit from the expanded color gamut and higher dynamic range on UHD. I don't have a ton of UHD movies so far (maybe 80?), but they have all been consistently better than previous releases, regardless of source (film scan or DI). However, the native 4K DI and scanned catalog films easily trounce the 2K DI movies in detail (with the exception of a few 2K DI upscales that look amazing thanks to impressive color/HDR enhancement - Pacific Rim, I'm looking at you).

No matter how you slice it, there's a glut of great movies spanning ~20 years that are forever held back by a 2K DI. Fortunately, there are many, many more that are not.
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I bought a few upscaled 2K UHD movies and I haven't found them to be worth replacing the original Blu-rays. I'm not going to do that anymore.

Yes, for years the movies we were watching in theaters were barely more resolution than our televisions at home.
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post #52 of 159 Old 02-04-2019, 12:09 PM
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Didn't believe you re: Groundhog Day, had to check-
https://www.amazon.com/Groundhog-Day...oundhog+day+4k

Yes, now a cult classic, but a 1080p BluRay probably good enough for that one, though I won't complain picking it up at thrift for $5 in a few years
A bit more info: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-o...ay-review.html and https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Groun...178887/#Review

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post #53 of 159 Old 02-06-2019, 05:12 PM
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Out of curiosity I occasionally look at Amazon's "best selling" lists to see what a specific title is doing. I typically see that BD sold the most, then DVD, then 3DBD (if available), then 4kUHD not even making the list at all.

For example if you look right now, The Grinch:
  • BD is #1
  • DVD is #3
  • 3D BD is #75
  • 4k UHD doesn't even make the list


The fact that 4kUHD discs don't even sell as well as 3D, which is a dead format for crying out loud...well, that does not fill me with confidence that there is room for yet another new physical media format.


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post #54 of 159 Old 02-06-2019, 08:12 PM
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I’d like to see the 4K & BD releases all combined. If a title gets a 4K release then the Blu-Ray should come with it and eliminate the extra separate Blu-Ray release. The studios would save a ton on separate packaging and shelf space in stores.


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post #55 of 159 Old 02-07-2019, 03:06 AM
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I don't doubt for a moment that companies will try to push 8k discs, they're already hyping up 8k tvs. And in some cruel twist of fate, I'll bet the only non-smeared transfer of T2 is released for it.
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post #56 of 159 Old 02-07-2019, 03:16 AM
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it's not and wont be the last. how many more times do we need posts and articles about this? after every format release? it will continue for decades more and beyond that.
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post #57 of 159 Old 02-07-2019, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MrGrey View Post
it's not and wont be the last. how many more times do we need posts and articles about this? after every format release? it will continue for decades more and beyond that.
4K UHD Discs are the first physical format to be introduced after the introduction of Netflix streaming, Hulu, Amazon video, etc. So I can't imagine how anyone with knowledge of the field could have reasonably asked this question before the introduction of BluRays.

Regarding how many posts there are on this topic: https://www.google.com/search?q=uhd+...e:avsforum.com

Your opinion that there will be many more physical formats for decades (and beyond) to come, while as valid as anyone's opinion, I suspect is in the minority.

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post #58 of 159 Old 02-07-2019, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Even though we are talking about consumer formats, I wonder if professional formats could be an indicator of how the consumer market will evolve. When I first started working in post production in the early 90’s there were many different video and audio formats in use that required dedicated playback machines. Including: DA-88, DAT, Quad, 1-inch, ¾-inch, BetaSP, M2, D1, D2, DigiBSP, D3, D5, HDCAM. Not to mention film and other consumer formats that were also used in a professional environment like CD, VHS and DVD.

But I think that the last professional playback device that required a dedicated playback machine was HDCAM SR, introduced in 2003. The only exception I can think of is new memory card formats, like XQD. There have been new codecs and new connectors (ie FireWire, USB 3, etc), but I don’t think there’s been a new professional physical format in over 15 years. And there aren’t going to be any more. Everything is file based.


So I predict consumer formats will go the same way. There will be new codecs, but there won’t be another physical software format for audio or video. Just like SACD and DVD-A will be the last physical formats for audio, UHD BluRay will be the last physical format for video. My prediction is there may be another Kalidescape type device that will allow downloads at a higher quality than UHD Blurays. Or maybe it will be a software solution where you connect a low powered computer (like a cheap Mac mini) to your TV and download Hi-res movies to your local drive.

Last edited by meli; 02-07-2019 at 11:38 PM.
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post #59 of 159 Old 02-08-2019, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by MrGrey View Post
it's not and wont be the last. how many more times do we need posts and articles about this? after every format release? it will continue for decades more and beyond that.
I'm a disc person. I subscribe to TWO disc rental services, I still buy discs every couple of weeks, I bought another disc player last month, and I just spent over $100 on discs today. But I can see the writing on the wall.

Personally I don't remember anyone saying Beta, VHS, Laserdisc, DVD, or 1080p BD would be the last format--I certainly didn't feel that way. But I DO feel that way about 4k UHD BD.

Every physical video format has had dramatic and obvious benefits from the prior formats. With 4kUHD we have reached the point where most consumers can't tell the difference.

What is happening to video right now has huge parallels with what killed physical audio formats years ago:

  • Most people can't hear the difference between a CD and an SACD/DVD-A.
  • Digital is more convenient.
  • Digital became "good enough" quality.
  • Instead of having a small library at home, access to a nearly limitless library in the cloud.

This isn't speculation, the facts are damning:

  • Almost half of 18-34 year-olds don't even own a DVD/BD player, much less a UHD player.
  • Disc sales continue to drop. This is not a temporary/seasonal trend, as they have been falling for years now.
  • Retail disc shelf space continues to get smaller.
  • Costco sells 4K TVs, but doesn't sell 4K discs.
  • 4K UHDs don't even sell as well as 3D Blurays, a format that is widely acknowledged as dead. Is there any expectation the next format will have more mass appeal?

It's not just millennials. I'm middle aged and almost all of my friends and family have given up on buying new physical video.

I don't necessarily rule out the companies attempting another format, I just don't think it will have mass market success. I think whatever comes next, if they try it at all, will be the SACD of the video world.
Rgb, Art Sonneborn, meli and 2 others like this.

Last edited by Actionable Mango; 02-08-2019 at 11:53 AM.
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post #60 of 159 Old 02-08-2019, 08:11 PM
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I don’t subscribe to cable or satellite. I have OTA, Netflix & Prime. I buy all my keeper shows on Blu-Ray and movies I want on 4K/BD. I only buy seasons of shows that I can’t get on Blu-Ray off iTunes and only buy old shows on DVD if they won’t get a Blu-Ray release.


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