HFR vs. 24p - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: Do you like HFR movies?
Yes 20 54.05%
No 15 40.54%
Yes, but don't like the current implementation 2 5.41%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 16 Old 01-16-2020, 01:23 AM - Thread Starter
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HFR vs. 24p

With the launch of another HFR movie, Gemini Man, the audience is being exposed to HFR in the feature film area. Not everyone seems to like it.
Some of the titles released: The Hobbit in 48fps (Theater only), Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk in 120/60fps for the Theater and 60fps Blu ray, and Gemini Man same as Billy Lynn. Not sure if there are others.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-o...ay-review.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-o...ay-review.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/44-mo...mos-sound.html

A somewhat related topic:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...ra-effect.html
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post #2 of 16 Old 01-16-2020, 10:52 AM
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I've always preferred HFR, I have my JVC projector's CMD on high all the time.
Low frame rate is a jerky juddery mess and it totally spoils the movie for me.

There is a camera pan in Gemini Man right at the beginning of this roof structure, the pan of that on the regular Blu-ray is a mess, while the HFR is nice and smooth, one can actually look at it and see the structure with out all the judder.
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What do we mean by "current implementation?"

I think its going to take some time for cinematographers to adjust to the format just like they had to do going from film to digital.

There is also a lot more pushback this time and there really isn't anyone championing the format besides Lee. Cameron seems to have walked back on his support.

I'm fully in favor of it but it seems like a very long road.

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post #4 of 16 Old 01-16-2020, 11:35 AM
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Gemini Man looked cool but of course a bit odd. But that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the unique experience.

I think it looked odd mainly because of a whole life of 24Hz conditioning.

I think with more exposure to and better cinematographic processes for 60Hz or other HFR video we would get more used to it and it would look better.

I hope other directors try HFR formats.
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post #5 of 16 Old 01-16-2020, 12:35 PM
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This poll is clearly broken. There should be 1,000 votes for No by now.
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post #6 of 16 Old 01-17-2020, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantc View Post
What do we mean by "current implementation?"

I think its going to take some time for cinematographers to adjust to the format just like they had to do going from film to digital.

There is also a lot more pushback this time and there really isn't anyone championing the format besides Lee. Cameron seems to have walked back on his support.

I'm fully in favor of it but it seems like a very long road.
That's a good question, and how else would it be implemented, how could the director and cinematographer possibly make it look less smooth _ or less "soap opera like".
It's one of those things that it is or isn't.
People who complain about it are like people who complain about a chocolate cake tasting like chocolate, you either like it or you don't.
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post #7 of 16 Old 01-17-2020, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffR1 View Post
That's a good question, and how else would it be implemented, how could the director and cinematographer possibly make it look less smooth _ or less "soap opera like".
It's one of those things that it is or isn't.
People who complain about it are like people who complain about a chocolate cake tasting like chocolate, you either like it or you don't.
I assume there are ways of controlling how high frame rate looks, either by some tech in the capturing setup/production/presentation or the way it's being shot. An expert/cinematographer would know more.

While not the same thing, there are different types of interpolation which give different results. What is happening on the screen/framing can also be conducive to HFR. When I started playing Billy Lynn's 24p version there was a sense of presence vizavi the viewer, like GoPro footage, it looked different than regular movies. The shooting style lent itself to HFR, whereas American Sniper did not.

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post #8 of 16 Old 01-18-2020, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Gemini Man looked cool but of course a bit odd. But that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the unique experience.

I think it looked odd mainly because of a whole life of 24Hz conditioning.

I think with more exposure to and better cinematographic processes for 60Hz or other HFR video we would get more used to it and it would look better.

I hope other directors try HFR formats.
And we need more of it in 2D, all the HFR releases in theaters have been in 3D which presents it's own challenges. That's part of the problem.
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post #9 of 16 Old 01-18-2020, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffR1 View Post
That's a good question, and how else would it be implemented, how could the director and cinematographer possibly make it look less smooth _ or less "soap opera like".
It's one of those things that it is or isn't.
People who complain about it are like people who complain about a chocolate cake tasting like chocolate, you either like it or you don't.
I compare it to the use of Dolby Atmos, sound engineers are still learning how to use this properly, sometimes they nail it other times it's "why did they bother". HFR is a tool and at some point a director will use it in a way that make people go "Wow". I think Peter Jackson came close, but it's going to take someone on the level of Christopher Nolan wanting to use HFR. We can hope.

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post #10 of 16 Old 01-18-2020, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
This poll is clearly broken. There should be 1,000 votes for No by now.
That's the future knockin' on the door, and the poll tech is never wrong...

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post #11 of 16 Old 01-18-2020, 12:29 AM
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HFR vs. 24p

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenthplanet View Post
I compare it to the use of Dolby Atmos, sound engineers are still learning how to use this properly, sometimes they nail it other times it's "why did they bother". HFR is a tool and at some point a director will use it in a way that make people go "Wow". I think Peter Jackson came close, but it's going to take someone on the level of Christopher Nolan wanting to use HFR. We can hope.


Or James Cameron.

He was strongly considering using HFR for some scenes in the upcoming Avatar films but ultimately decided against it for now.
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180 degree shutter (1/120 sec shutter) on Gemini Man made it look sickeningly bad...if they went with 360 degree (1/60 sec shutter), like you would see on a Handycam, it wouldn't have looked so bad. The total lack of motion makes the 60p look smoother than what your eye would see, so it's overly "real". Gemini Man also went for the true life color accuracy and HDR range, so it looked like a properly setup and calibrated TV news camera, and the HDR flames and headlights and flashlights etc were properly brilliant. Would make perfect TV news or reality clips that way, but not a movie...I was distracted the entire film by them trying to show off 60p as an "effect", like 3D movies that would pander to the "effect" at the expense of the story or immersion.

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post #13 of 16 Old 01-18-2020, 12:50 AM - Thread Starter
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As I mentioned in a previous post, even Billy Lynn's at 24p had a special look, like it was trying to be life like.

The best aspect of HFR is when dealing with fast moving objects, and the worst (IMO) is static scenes of people talking, that look sped up.

I don't have the knowledge to know what happens with shooting at 60 (120/192)fps, but 60fps can be a benefit even when dealing with static scenes of people talking.

This one I assume is shot in 60fps:


Examples of two of Ang Lee's HFR movies:




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post #14 of 16 Old 01-18-2020, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
I assume there are ways of controlling how high frame rate looks, either by some tech in the capturing setup/production/presentation or the way it's being shot. An expert/cinematographer would know more.

While not the same thing, there are different types of interpolation which give different results. What is happening on the screen/framing can also be conducive to HFR. When I started playing Billy Lynn's 24p version there was a sense of presence vizavi the viewer, like GoPro footage, it looked different than regular movies. The shooting style lent itself to HFR, whereas American Sniper did not.
When you shoot HFR and down-convert to 24p you still get some reduction in motion blur compared to a movie that was shot at native 24p. Ang Lee has talked about this.

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post #15 of 16 Old 01-21-2020, 12:27 PM
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I watched Gemini man at 60fps 4k (no HDR, as I have an Epson 5040 and it can't do HDR @60fps ) and it felt a little off. I most absolutely love the judder improvements in panning scenes and such, yet this particular film felt like the exposure was too bright or something. It may depend on equipment, and the speed of the displays. I know in VR headsets low persistence is desired (which is how long the image stays lit on the panel per frame) and higher framerates yield brighter images (more frames = more time duration per second that the panel is illuminated). I've not researched how this is for an LCD projector/TV, vs OLED, vs whatever the digital cinemas use. A poster above referred to shutter speed and that could in essence be the same issue I'm describing just at the source camera rather than the end display. I'm sure some of it is just that we've had a lifetime on 24fps and need to adjust to something other than 24fps. I need to make a clip of the movie where it plays small segments back to back with 60fps and 24fps, whereas the video itself stays at 60fps to avoid handshakes in between.

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post #16 of 16 Old 01-21-2020, 12:34 PM
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I hope this HFR nonsense for film meets a quick death.

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