The New PQ Tier thread for Blu-Ray - Discussion - Page 857 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #25681 of 25765 Old 05-24-2019, 03:31 AM
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Black Hawk Down (4K)


One of my all time favourite reference movies, not so much for its picture quality but definitely its surround-sound effects and its amazing score.

I remember being quite disappointed with the blu-ray back in the day when I watched it on my Kuro 9G, I had to double check that it wasn't a DVD I bought. But no matter, the sound quality was amazing. And the movie's great.
With the 4K restoration of this film, it's more of the same. Although a huge improvement over the 1080p version a lot has changed in the last 10 years and standards are indeed much higher. I read Ralph Potts' review of BHD and although he scored it in the mid 90s (out of 100) he opened up with "The movie has a stylistic choice and added in a lot of film grain, it is not a problem and should not be viewed as such" - mild paraphrasing thrown in.

I immediately understood I'd be slightly let down PQ-wise as I for one (25 years old) don't appreciate film grain as it is not something I see with my own eyes when I look around. With that said the film has a thick layer of grain all over, but it's still pretty sharp and the details of each shot is actually really high. the HDR really brings out the sunlight and hues (though this movies palette is rather muted) and overall it looks really good and rather bad at the same time (in my opinion) those who are fond of film grain are sure to enjoy the PQ a LOT... But compare this to (my) current PQ king Transformers 5 or even something way lower on the reference list like John Wick and it won't have that same razor-sharpness we expect of modern 4K movies.


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post #25682 of 25765 Old 05-24-2019, 03:34 AM
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I didn't get to audition the audio properly... Unfortunately since I moved into a studio apartment downtown 4 years ago not only do I have thin walls (and constant neighbour complaints) I also had to downgrade from a 7.1 surround sound DTS-HD MA setup to regular 2.1 stereo. I still have an amazing sound system but I haven't REALLY enjoyed that good movie sound since 2014-15. So the entire Dolby Atmos / DTS X experience is still something I haven't experienced in my own home. the DTS-HD MA soundtrack of Blackhawk Down was mind-blowing 10 years ago, I can only imagine what the Dolby Atmos is like today.
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post #25683 of 25765 Old 05-24-2019, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by SnellTHX
I also had to downgrade from a 7.1 surround sound DTS-HD MA setup to regular 2.1 stereo.
That sucks, man. But one has to do what one has to do. Although for different reasons, I also haven't upgraded to ATMOS/DTS:X, and probably it won't happen until I move out to a different place. I don't even have the space for a 7.1 setup. Sound systems get bigger, but room sizes stay the same :/

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post #25684 of 25765 Old 05-24-2019, 08:52 AM
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^^^^^^^^

Snell,

I know you dislike grain and I do too if it’s so heavy it comes across as “noise.” I was going to order Black Hawk Down but I may not after reading your review.

Denny
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post #25685 of 25765 Old 05-24-2019, 10:32 AM
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Well, I guess I'll toss in my two cents on the 4K Black Hawk Down. In my set up, it's pretty much a 10/10. I don't usually pay too much attention to a film's "look" but I loved the stylized look of this film from the first time I saw it when it was released. And, having been a photojournalist for 40 years and having shot every type of film imaginable, I do love grain and the impact it has on the presentation (as well as other films. Grain is a GOOD thing despite how later generations can't stand the look. It does very often add an unexpected emotional impact). With my recently updated Dolby Atmos set up the sound field on this film was nothing short of amazing, in my HT, anyway. I'm not the most technical person in the world when it comes to this stuff, but going by what I see and hear is all that really matters to me. And if it helps me in my enjoyment of a film, that's all the bottom line. I just recently bought and watched the 1962 version of The Miracle Worker and even though it was "only" DTS-HD Master Audio 2.0, it sounded great in my HT and the b/w cinematography looked stunning on my 77C8. Same with the 4K version of The Karate Kid. Certainly not a groundbreaking PQ/AQ film but the HDR upgrade really helped this film look much better and created a new, enjoyable viewing experience for me. And that really is the bottom line for someone like me who has had more than a 50 year of love affair with the movies.

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post #25686 of 25765 Old 05-24-2019, 11:29 AM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Okay, my mind has been "officially changed" by your comments jbhur12 and thus I just got done ordering the UHD version of Black Hawk Down! I too LIKE GRAIN as long as it doesn't look NOISY, which then tends to OBSCURE DETAILS. But from what you said the grain serves to ENHANCE DETAILS and I've said in many reviews on this thread that when grain enhances details it's a beautiful look!

I just have to add that "your set-up" is almost exactly the same as mine (we both have the LG OLED 77C8 and a Dolby Atmos speaker set-up) so I am looking forward to "SEEING what you see" and "HEARING what you hear!"

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post #25687 of 25765 Old 05-24-2019, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Okay, my mind has been "officially changed" by your comments jbhur12 and thus I just got done ordering the UHD version of Black Hawk Down! I too LIKE GRAIN as long as it doesn't look NOISY, which then tends to OBSCURE DETAILS. But from what you said the grain serves to ENHANCE DETAILS and I've said in many reviews on this thread that when grain enhances details it's a beautiful look!

I just have to add that "your set-up" is almost exactly the same as mine (we both have the LG OLED 77C8 and a Dolby Atmos speaker set-up) so I am looking forward to "SEEING what you see" and "HEARING what you hear!"
I think you'll love it (sound-wise it did win Academy Awards for Best Film Editing and Best Sound Mixing) and for a film shot on negative stock, it really does look amazing, especially the close-ups. Never seen such detail in characters faces. I do agree with the other poster about Transformers:The Last Knight being 100% razor-sharp and probably at the top of my list of films shot digitally. Image-wise, they are polar opposites that nevertheless, get the job done visually. Plus I forgot just how good this film is. Ridley just doesn’t seem to get enough credit for his films.

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post #25688 of 25765 Old 05-24-2019, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
Okay, my mind has been "officially changed" by your comments jbhur12 and thus I just got done ordering the UHD version of Black Hawk Down!
Looking forward to reading your thoughts on it. I'm not a fan of excessive grain, so I'm curious to hear if you found it distracting.
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post #25689 of 25765 Old 05-24-2019, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Jbhur212 View Post
I think you'll love it (sound-wise it did win Academy Awards for Best Film Editing and Best Sound Mixing) and for a film shot on negative stock, it really does look amazing, especially the close-ups. Never seen such detail in characters faces. I do agree with the other poster about Transformers:The Last Knight being 100% razor-sharp and probably at the top of my list of films shot digitally. Image-wise, they are polar opposites that nevertheless, get the job done visually. Plus I forgot just how good this film is. Ridley just doesn’t seem to get enough credit for his films.
I think I'll love it too! Again, I really like grain when it enhances details and from EVERYONE who has reviewed this film, including Snell, the details are OFF-THE-CHARTS!!

My biggest gripe (from what I remember when viewing the Blu-ray years ago) with Black Hawk Down was the egregious color-grading (teal/orange) but even there I can be very forgiving if it doesn't hinder details.

Let me end this post by saying I'm with you and Snell regarding Transformers: The Last Knight. It has been my "go to" UHD Blu-ray for demoing the amazing benefits of UHD. It's still #1 in my book!

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post #25690 of 25765 Old 05-24-2019, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dla26 View Post
Looking forward to reading your thoughts on it. I'm not a fan of excessive grain, so I'm curious to hear if you found it distracting.
If you read my last post you'll see that I don't mind heavy grain if it doesn't distract me by hindering details, which apparently it doesn't (even Snell observed this). And I've actually gone to various sites (like Do.Blu.com) which gives pics from the movie and they look great! So, I believe "my thoughts" are going to be positive.

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post #25691 of 25765 Old 05-24-2019, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
I think I'll love it too! Again, I really like grain when it enhances details and from EVERYONE who has reviewed this film, including Snell, the details are OFF-THE-CHARTS!!

My biggest gripe (from what I remember when viewing the Blu-ray years ago) with Black Hawk Down was the egregious color-grading (teal/orange) but even there I can be very forgiving if it doesn't hinder details.

Let me end this post by saying I'm with you and Snell regarding Transformers: The Last Knight. It has been my "go to" UHD Blu-ray for demoing the amazing benefits of UHD. It's still #1 in my book!
Yep, definitely notice that horrid teal/orange crap.

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post #25692 of 25765 Old 05-25-2019, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Jbhur212 View Post
Well, I guess I'll toss in my two cents on the 4K Black Hawk Down. In my set up, it's pretty much a 10/10. I don't usually pay too much attention to a film's "look" but I loved the stylized look of this film from the first time I saw it when it was released. And, having been a photojournalist for 40 years and having shot every type of film imaginable, I do love grain and the impact it has on the presentation (as well as other films. Grain is a GOOD thing despite how later generations can't stand the look. It does very often add an unexpected emotional impact). With my recently updated Dolby Atmos set up the sound field on this film was nothing short of amazing, in my HT, anyway. I'm not the most technical person in the world when it comes to this stuff, but going by what I see and hear is all that really matters to me. And if it helps me in my enjoyment of a film, that's all the bottom line. I just recently bought and watched the 1962 version of The Miracle Worker and even though it was "only" DTS-HD Master Audio 2.0, it sounded great in my HT and the b/w cinematography looked stunning on my 77C8. Same with the 4K version of The Karate Kid. Certainly not a groundbreaking PQ/AQ film but the HDR upgrade really helped this film look much better and created a new, enjoyable viewing experience for me. And that really is the bottom line for someone like me who has had more than a 50 year of love affair with the movies.
I understand older people, those who grew up with film and have fond memories of analog film / cinematography / photography etc love film grain, for its 'organic' and 'filmic' experience. But to me it isn't realistic as film grain isn't something we have in our eyes. When watching a movie I wish to obtain that 'Looking out of a window' experience that completely obliterates the line between watching a movie and viewing the world... (ironically?) this is best achieved with IMAX 15/70mm screen-filling shots from Christopher Nolan's movies - Dunkirk, Interstellar, The Dark Knight Rises... And also other greats like Transformers 5 (best non-IMAX MSM 9802 movie). What they all have in common is ZERO grain, ZERO noise, ZERO pixelation ZERO anything. in combination with a decent sound system, those shots really trick my brain into thinking I'm in a WW2 plane, driving a Lamborghini or riding Batman's motorbike. Film grain completely takes that experience away by reminding me I'm watching a movie. those IMAX better-than-digital-film shots also give them a 3D like depth that literally(figuratively) pulls me inside my TV.
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post #25693 of 25765 Old 05-25-2019, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Okay, my mind has been "officially changed" by your comments jbhur12 and thus I just got done ordering the UHD version of Black Hawk Down! I too LIKE GRAIN as long as it doesn't look NOISY, which then tends to OBSCURE DETAILS. But from what you said the grain serves to ENHANCE DETAILS and I've said in many reviews on this thread that when grain enhances details it's a beautiful look!

I just have to add that "your set-up" is almost exactly the same as mine (we both have the LG OLED 77C8 and a Dolby Atmos speaker set-up) so I am looking forward to "SEEING what you see" and "HEARING what you hear!"
Yeah I definitely don't mean to keep you from buying. Based on your previous reviews I think you'll very much like it, and can imagine you scoring it several quarters of a tier higher than I have. I just voiced my opinion (which you know well by now )

As I said, Ralph Potts gave it a high score (but he sort of had to defend giving it a high score) and that need for justification was aimed towards people like me.

Another professional reviewer I read gave it 88/100, which is also higher than what I'd place it if I were to score 1-100. (a Tier 1.75 from 0-5 is probably around 70/100.. mathematically speaking)
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post #25694 of 25765 Old 05-25-2019, 02:13 AM
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Oh yeah, the orange/teal tint is definitely there ^^
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post #25695 of 25765 Old 05-25-2019, 11:18 AM
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If it's no trouble, could someone review Apollo 11?
Me again! After learning that there will be NO UHD VERSION and that the 1080p version is actually "Reference Quality," I decided to order this. It should arrive next Tuesday. I'm really looking forward to SEEING and HEARING (especially the LAUNCH) this.

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post #25696 of 25765 Old 05-26-2019, 04:07 AM
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Billy Lynn's Long Halftime walk (4K)

okay first off, wow. Second: WOOW. I can't remember what made me add this movie to my IMDB watchlist, if it was a user of this thread or perhaps the fact that Ralph Potts gave this movie an elusive 100/100 rating in his review, but whoever recommended me this movie ... What a suggestion!

I was skeptical at first and couldn't believe how this could possible have among the best Picture quality ever, but it certainly has.
Filmed with Sony's fancy CineAlta F65 cameras in my favourite, screen-filling 1.85:1 aspect ratio, with 4K resolution 3D and 120fps. This is the movie of the future.
While the home version is merely 4K/60fps and 2D, it still has HDR, P3, 10bit bells & whistles and stems from a 4K DI... And boooyy does it show off that in spades. Compliments like 'Crystal-clear', 'Razor sharp', etc don't really do it justice. It's just on another level compared to most.

Perhaps the only complaint would be the bluish/cold 'stale' colour palette. But this movie has some of the most details I've ever seen before. When the camera zooms in on Steve Martin's face and he looks right at the camera it's downright scary. The man's in his 70s and you can see every blemish, rash, redness other skin defects that you'd expect from a senior citizen's face.
Tears, wrinkles, beard stubble, acne, blackheads, pores, sweat.. I haven't really seen such realism before.

The war scenes shot in Iraq honestly look like the stupid demo-material you see on large Samsung/Sony venues that NEVER represent what you'd actually bring at home. It's that good.



So apropos the earlier discussion about film grain and natural / organic looking imagery.. you don't really have that here even though it's one of the most realistic out-of-the-window experiences on film. The smooth motion is not for everyone and I can't imagine everyone appreciating what is on offer.


My top 3 is still Dunkirk, Transformers 5 & Interstellar... but this for me is equally high on my reference list. I definitely know what to show off the boys when its movie night and they want to see what images an OLED can produce

Tier recommendation: 0 (top 5!)
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post #25697 of 25765 Old 05-27-2019, 03:53 PM
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^^^^^^^^^^

I've never seen this before so I will have to check it out somehow (without buying it).

You had listed your "Top 3" in your review so you must be nominating this for either #4 or #5 . I should also ask you: Have you seen all those in the current Top 5? And have you seen the new How to Train Your Dragon: The Hidden World? If not, you should probably check them out.

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Have you seen all those in the current Top 5?
Apologies if I missed it, but have the Blu tiers been updated? I was under the impression that this list from July 2017 was still the latest version.
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post #25699 of 25765 Old 05-27-2019, 06:44 PM
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Apologies if I missed it, but have the Blu tiers been updated? I was under the impression that this list from July 2017 was still the latest version.
I think you are correct, but Snell may still not have seen the Top Five in that list.

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post #25700 of 25765 Old 05-27-2019, 06:47 PM
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Apologies if I missed it, but have the Blu tiers been updated? I was under the impression that this list from July 2017 was still the latest version.
Everything below Tier 0 has been updated through January of 2019.


We are probably going to have to do something about Tier 0 because of all the UHDs. Many, many UHDs are getting nominated for Tier 0. It might be time for a separate UHD list for Tier 0.
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Blu-ray Picture Quality Tiers (updated through July 13, 2017)
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post #25701 of 25765 Old 05-27-2019, 09:46 PM
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I concur Phantom; a separate Tier for UHD titles would be great! But then again, there are UHD titles that won't make it into Tier 0. Where would we place them?

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post #25702 of 25765 Old 05-28-2019, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
^^^^^^^^^^

I've never seen this before so I will have to check it out somehow (without buying it).

You had listed your "Top 3" in your review so you must be nominating this for either #4 or #5 . I should also ask you: Have you seen all those in the current Top 5? And have you seen the new How to Train Your Dragon: The Hidden World? If not, you should probably check them out.
Yeah the 4th or 5th spot goes to either Billy Lynn or Pacific Rim (The first one)


I've seen both Moana and The Good Dinosaur, but I wouldn't put them in my top 5. the rest of my top 10 would go to the animated movies of which: Kung Fu Panda 3, The Smurfs 2, Coco, Moana are definitely in there, the 5th best would have to be between: The Good Dinosaur, Monster's University, Big Hero 6, Boss Baby, Finding Dory... So the rest goes in the top 20.

I haven't really seen anymore animation movies than that I'm afraid. No Secret Life of pets, no How to Train your Dragon 3 (which you recently placed at the top!), no nothing (as of late)

I also have to rewatch many of my favourite blu-rays in 4K-HDR to see how they place... GOTG2, Pacific Rim, Avatar, Life of Pi... I rewatched them on blu-ray not long ago and they didn't look as good as I remembered... goes to show what getting used to 4K/HDR/WCG has done to my eyes.
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post #25703 of 25765 Old 05-28-2019, 12:17 AM
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Everything below Tier 0 has been updated through January of 2019.


We are probably going to have to do something about Tier 0 because of all the UHDs. Many, many UHDs are getting nominated for Tier 0. It might be time for a separate UHD list for Tier 0.
I agree something has to be done with that... I first watched Avengers: Infinity War and had a hard time placing it above Tier 1. Re-watched the 4K/HDR version and that's several tier-quarters above it PQ-wise. The upgrade is closer to 0.25 or 0.33
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post #25704 of 25765 Old 05-28-2019, 09:48 PM
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I haven't really seen anymore animation movies than that I'm afraid. No Secret Life of pets, no How to Train your Dragon 3 (which you recently placed at the top!), no nothing (as of late)
Hey Snell...I just have to convince you to watch both of those "animated marvels." I'd start out with Secret Life of Pets...it's right up your alley with a FULL SCREEN and some of the brightest colors you've ever seen....I promise you! Then you'd be ready for the sequel that comes out on June 7th!
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post #25705 of 25765 Old 05-29-2019, 02:12 PM
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I concur Phantom; a separate Tier for UHD titles would be great! But then again, there are UHD titles that won't make it into Tier 0. Where would we place them?
I don't have a ready-made solution in hand.


We could maintain separate Tier 0 lists for UHDs and Blu-rays only, leaving the lower-ranked discs as they are now. Back in the day, there was a great clamor to separate animation from live action in Tier 0.


As UHDs represent more and more of the absolute best Tier 0 titles, it's probably best separating them at that level.
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Blu-ray Picture Quality Tiers (updated through July 13, 2017)
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post #25706 of 25765 Old 05-29-2019, 04:07 PM
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I don't have a ready-made solution in hand.


We could maintain separate Tier 0 lists for UHDs and Blu-rays only, leaving the lower-ranked discs as they are now. Back in the day, there was a great clamor to separate animation from live action in Tier 0.


As UHDs represent more and more of the absolute best Tier 0 titles, it's probably best separating them at that level.
I believe it would be practical and acceptable to all if we had separate Tier 0 lists for UHDs and Blu-rays, though if I have seen both formats in any particular title I would probably make mention of it in a review and let everyone know how much better (or, in a very rare instance, worse) the UHD release is.

I do wish we could have separate lists also for animated titles but that would add a LOT of work to you know who.

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post #25707 of 25765 Old 05-29-2019, 04:09 PM
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I just received Black Hawk Down (UHD), Apollo 11 (1080p), and Apollo 13 (UHD) in the mail. I am quite busy though so I'm not sure when I'll be watching them.
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Bridge Of Spies 1080p BR

I wasn’t expecting much from this disc but I’m please to say it looked pretty great!

Generally colours are natural throughout apart from some scenes which have a cool
hue about them. Contrast and detail were strong; the film has a very clean look and despite the BluRay.com review mentioning a light layer of grain, I found this hard to detect. Suit textures are particularly appreciable, facials were decent but not the strongest I’ve seen. I watched this movie before skipping through Batman v Superman - I preferred the former with regards to PQ.

Tier 1.5
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post #25709 of 25765 Old 05-30-2019, 05:30 PM
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I just received Black Hawk Down (UHD), Apollo 11 (1080p), and Apollo 13 (UHD) in the mail. I am quite busy though so I'm not sure when I'll be watching them.
I’ve read some glowing reviews of BHD in 4K Denny! Keep us posted...
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post #25710 of 25765 Old 05-30-2019, 07:17 PM
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Apollo 11 (1080p)

I'm actually quite tired so I'm going to "cheat a little" and give you a link to a very brief post I made on the PQ/AQ on Ralph Potts' site where he reviewed this film/documentary. As you will see, it incorporated film footage consisting of 16mm, 35mm, and 65mm. The 65mm footage was stunning! The 16mm/35mm...not so much! As a result, I am having a hard time coming up with a placement recommendation. Ralph decided to simply comment on the 65mm footage and he gave it a score of 93 (out of a 100). I agree with that score. But here we must consider ALL of the footage. Let's face it, the 16mm and 35mm does NOT constitute EYE CANDY...at all. So, with the impossible task of weighing all the pros and cons I think I'll opt for....

Tier Recommendation: 1.5*

PS I almost forgot...here's the link to Ralph's site: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-o...l#post58120870
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