The New PQ Tier thread for Blu-Ray - Discussion - Page 858 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #25711 of 25813 Old 05-31-2019, 09:01 AM
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Okay, so I'm sure this has been discussed before but I have been searching this thread and can't find the answer:

Why are there not more 4K UHD titles listed in Tier 0?

Is it because:

1. When a title is available in both 4K and blu-ray that the UHD version simply adds HDR and a wider color gamut?

2. The blu-ray is superior to the 4K version?

3. The version is not denoted in the title but requires you to look for HEVC in the codec section?.

Just surprised to not see more 4K UHD modifiers in the titles or HEVC listed in the codecs.

I'm assuming there is something I'm overlooking here?

Thx!

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post #25712 of 25813 Old 05-31-2019, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Stranger View Post
Everything below Tier 0 has been updated through January of 2019.


We are probably going to have to do something about Tier 0 because of all the UHDs. Many, many UHDs are getting nominated for Tier 0. It might be time for a separate UHD list for Tier 0.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordofDoubleD View Post
Okay, so I'm sure this has been discussed before but I have been searching this thread and can't find the answer:

Why are there not more 4K UHD titles listed in Tier 0?

Is it because:

1. When a title is available in both 4K and blu-ray that the UHD version simply adds HDR and a wider color gamut?

2. The blu-ray is superior to the 4K version?

3. The version is not denoted in the title but requires you to look for HEVC in the codec section?.

Just surprised to not see more 4K UHD modifiers in the titles or HEVC listed in the codecs.

I'm assuming there is something I'm overlooking here?

Thx!
I copied Phantom's post because it answers your question. In short, it's because Tier 0 has not been updated since 2017 so all of the UHD titles that Phantom references as being in Tier 0 won't be seen until a new update comes out.

You can rest assured that the UHD titles are (except for very rare exceptions) superior to the 1080p Blu-ray version and that there are plenty of UHD titles in Tier 0!

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post #25713 of 25813 Old 05-31-2019, 10:08 AM
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Thanks for the quick response:

Ok, that totally makes sense - and... it's funny because I realized that should have been one of my questions:

4. Is it because there are so many UHD titles that have come out and and Tier 0 is going to have to be reevaluated - or a completely separate UHD tier needs to be created?



Good to know - I'll keep an eye out for the update!

-DD
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post #25714 of 25813 Old 05-31-2019, 10:31 AM
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^^^^^^^^

I would encourage you to go back a few pages (at least TEN pages) and read some of the UHD reviews that are placed in Tier 0.

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post #25715 of 25813 Old 06-01-2019, 07:47 PM
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Apollo 13 (UHD)

It has been many, many years since I saw the Remastered Blu-ray of this excellent film by Ron Howard. After watching the Apollo 11 documentary the other day I felt compelled to watch this. I'm glad I did! The production was amazing; the acting was topnotch; the story-line was...well you know the story, it was fascinating and perhaps the greatest survival story ever; and last, but not least, the PQ was stunning.

This had the coveted "filmic-look" with a light layer of grain through most of the 2+ hours running time (though at times it became quite sharp with clarity that looked "digital"). This did NOT hinder DETAILS, for they were phenomenal in all areas (clothing, spacesuits, facial texture, hair, grass, cars, instrument panels, etc.). COLORS were a real treat, with a vibrant look in keeping with the "time period," yet not overly-saturated. BLACK LEVELS & SHADOW DETAILS were a "sight to behold!" The many "space scenes" had me glued to my OLED with the "blackness of space" serving up some "dazzling bright stars." Inside the Apollo (in every nook and cranny) there was zero black crush and with the bright instrument panels we are blessed with some sweet EYE CANDY. The only gripe I have, and it must be noted, were the FLESH TONES. For the most part they are very good, but in some scenes, most notably inside the Houston Command Center, they took on a slight "red push," resulting in a sunburn look on faces and a loss of texture.

The DTS:X audio mix was spectacular!

Tier Recommendation: Tier 0* (.5)

PS I could see some dropping this down to possibly .75 or maybe even a hair lower.
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post #25716 of 25813 Old 06-01-2019, 07:50 PM
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Up next: Black Hawk Down! But it won't be until sometime next week.

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post #25717 of 25813 Old 06-02-2019, 11:27 AM
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IT (2017 - 1080p BR)

Loved this movie, it reminded me of The Goonies meets Nightmare on Elm Street!

The bonus is that the PQ was excellent! The opening scene was fairly dark and there wasn’t much scope for the picture to shine, but beyond this, the often sunny outdoor scenes of ‘Derry’ had so much pop and dimension; I can’t imagine how good it would look in 4K! The colours were sumptuous and detail far reaching, particularly some shots of the Old Well House where you could make out each rafter of its shoddy timber construction. Elsewhere you could make out the individual lines in the headlights of Henry’s ‘Trans Am’. The picture was so squeaky clean, but not clinically so.

Moving to the many underground ‘sewer system’ moments, blacks were satisfyingly dark but not to the detriment of shadow detail needed to reveal PennyWises’ creepy movements. Contrast was very well balanced throughout.

I’d be so tempted to place this in lower Tier 0 bar a couple of scenes which faltered slightly with some softness.

Definitely top of Tier 1 though...

Tier 1.0
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post #25718 of 25813 Old 06-07-2019, 06:38 PM
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Black Hawk Down (UHD)

I finally got around to watching this and it was even better than I had anticipated. Snell, I feel sorry for you when it comes to "hating grain," for I had no problems whatsoever with the grain with the one or two exceptions where it became a bit much when there was DUST from bombing or trucks racing through the city.

This is most definitely "Reference Quality!" It's all about DETAILS, DETAILS and more DETAILS. I think I can say unequivocally that this title had the best details (especially "facial details and texture") I've ever seen. Here is the short review I just posted on Ralph Potts' site:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-o...l#post58155704

Tier Recommendation: Tier 0* (.33)

PS The Dolby Atmos mix was great, but not phenomenal in the LFE/bass department. Having said that, the highest I could turn it to (because of the WAF) was -7.5.
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post #25719 of 25813 Old 06-07-2019, 06:41 PM
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My wife and I are leaving for 6 days on Sunday so I'll be having another "Blu-ray Fast" this coming week.

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post #25720 of 25813 Old 06-07-2019, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
Black Hawk Down (UHD)

I finally got around to watching this and it was even better than I had anticipated. Snell, I feel sorry for you when it comes to "hating grain," for I had no problems whatsoever with the grain with the one or two exceptions where it became a bit much when there was DUST from bombing or trucks racing through the city.

This is most definitely "Reference Quality!" It's all about DETAILS, DETAILS and more DETAILS. I think I can say unequivocally that this title had the best details (especially "facial details and texture") I've ever seen. Here is the short review I just posted on Ralph Potts' site:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-o...l#post58155704

Tier Recommendation: Tier 0* (.33)

PS The Dolby Atmos mix was great, but not phenomenal in the LFE/bass department. Having said that, the highest I could turn it to (because of the WAF) was -7.5.

Just curious, did see any of the lip sync issues?
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post #25721 of 25813 Old 06-07-2019, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tcramer View Post
Just curious, did see any of the lip sync issues?
Like I said on Ralph's site, zero problems with audio dropouts. I watched the Theatrical Version though, for it seems the Extended Version is the one most people are having trouble with audio.

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post #25722 of 25813 Old 06-08-2019, 08:27 AM
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I was reminded on another thread about how amazing the details were in the UHD version of Saving Private Ryan and I would have to say they were just as good as the details in Black Hawk Down. Having said that, I gave BHD a higher rating because it featured a more striking CLARITY. SPR had some SOFT SHOTS here and there throughout the film.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/150-b...l#post56165968

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post #25723 of 25813 Old 06-08-2019, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by SnellTHX View Post
Billy Lynn's Long Halftime walk (4K)

okay first off, wow. Second: WOOW. I can't remember what made me add this movie to my IMDB watchlist, if it was a user of this thread or perhaps the fact that Ralph Potts gave this movie an elusive 100/100 rating in his review, but whoever recommended me this movie ... What a suggestion!

I was skeptical at first and couldn't believe how this could possible have among the best Picture quality ever, but it certainly has.
Filmed with Sony's fancy CineAlta F65 cameras in my favourite, screen-filling 1.85:1 aspect ratio, with 4K resolution 3D and 120fps. This is the movie of the future.
While the home version is merely 4K/60fps and 2D, it still has HDR, P3, 10bit bells & whistles and stems from a 4K DI... And boooyy does it show off that in spades. Compliments like 'Crystal-clear', 'Razor sharp', etc don't really do it justice. It's just on another level compared to most.

Perhaps the only complaint would be the bluish/cold 'stale' colour palette. But this movie has some of the most details I've ever seen before. When the camera zooms in on Steve Martin's face and he looks right at the camera it's downright scary. The man's in his 70s and you can see every blemish, rash, redness other skin defects that you'd expect from a senior citizen's face.
Tears, wrinkles, beard stubble, acne, blackheads, pores, sweat.. I haven't really seen such realism before.

The war scenes shot in Iraq honestly look like the stupid demo-material you see on large Samsung/Sony venues that NEVER represent what you'd actually bring at home. It's that good.



So apropos the earlier discussion about film grain and natural / organic looking imagery.. you don't really have that here even though it's one of the most realistic out-of-the-window experiences on film. The smooth motion is not for everyone and I can't imagine everyone appreciating what is on offer.


My top 3 is still Dunkirk, Transformers 5 & Interstellar... but this for me is equally high on my reference list. I definitely know what to show off the boys when its movie night and they want to see what images an OLED can produce

Tier recommendation: 0 (top 5!)
I concur with everything SnellTHX said, though I would dare to put it as my #2 best PQ disc, right after the king, Planet Earth II.

It did take a few minutes toget used to HFR. In a weird way it looked like I was watching video that was captured on someone's cell phone. It felt like I was watching actors acting. But after a few minutes, my eyes and brain adjusted, and I was just watching a movie. I watched something in 24fps right after watching Billy Flynn, and everything looked so blurry whenever the camera panned. Once you go HFR, you can never go back. (Speaking of which, Ang Lee is directing his next film, Gemini Man, in HFR as well. I really hope it does well so more directors use it. I tried to pre-order Gemini Man on 4K UHD, but it's not on Amazon yet...)

In terms of SnellTHX's top 3, Dunkirk's muted color palette killed it for me, but I must admit that I've never seen Transformers 5 or Interstellar in 4K.

So my top 3 as of right now are:

1. Planet Earth II
2. Billy Flynn's Long Halftime Walk
3. The Great Wall

Honorable mentions go to The Martian and Aquaman.

Tier recommendation: 0 (#2 )
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post #25724 of 25813 Old 06-08-2019, 04:15 PM
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^^^^^^^^^

Man, you guys are tempting me to buy this (I can't RENT a 4K version of this). The problem with that is....I've heard the movie itself isn't very good.

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post #25725 of 25813 Old 06-08-2019, 07:51 PM
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I couldn't make it through fifteen minutes of it. Way too soap-opery. Clear and sharp as a tack though!
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post #25726 of 25813 Old 06-09-2019, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
I couldn't make it through fifteen minutes of it. Way too soap-opery. Clear and sharp as a tack though!
Like I said, the first couple minutes were difficult to get used to. Afterwards, it's just a really good looking movie.

As for the quality of the movie, I'd say it was good but not great. I thought it did a good job of showing how PTSD manifests itself and how there's a culture in the US of giving lip service thanks to the military bordering on hero worship but not *really* caring about their well-being.

It was a bit on the depressing side because of the nature of the message, but I don't think it was poorly done at all. I probably wouldn't have watched it if I hadn't heard the PQ was so good, but I don't regret having seen it at all. (Unlike, say, the Transformers movies. Whenever I watch one of those for all of the ear and eye candy, I feel gross because of how bad those movies are. Just my opinion of course. Everyone has different tastes.)
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post #25727 of 25813 Old 06-12-2019, 04:01 PM
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The annual TV shoot-out judging the best displays is being held this weekend.


https://hdguru.com/15th-annual-tv-sh...e-12th-in-nyc/
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Blu-ray Picture Quality Tiers (updated through July 13, 2017)
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post #25728 of 25813 Old 06-14-2019, 12:25 PM
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^^^^^^^^^^

Well, the OLEDs are still KING!! The Sony OLED beat out the LG OLED again this year by a slim margin in several categories. I figured Sony would win in the "SDR category" (due to its superior processor) but was surprised it won in the "HDR" category (where the processor has nothing to do with the PQ). The Sony LCD came in third followed by Samsung's QLED display in fourth place.

I just rented Captain Marvel at Redbox. I opted to rent instead of buy because some of the reviews of the movie itself left a sour taste in my mouth. When I ordered the 1080p Blu-ray online, I saw that Redbox will soon be offering UHD titles. That is great (as long as the price isn't too high)!

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post #25729 of 25813 Old 06-14-2019, 06:34 PM
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2001: A Space Odyssey (UHD)

recommendation: Tier 0.66*

Excellent review from djobert, concur on all points.


The first time I saw this I was pretty bored except the scenes with HAL. I've since learned to appreciate movies for things like direction and cinematography and this one really holds your interest on those points if you can't get into the story.



Quote:
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2001: A Space Odyssey (UHD)

It has been decades since I've seen this Stanley Kubrick CLASSIC and I was even more in AWE of this mind-bending film watching it tonight. The eerie SILENCE....the amazing ORCHESTRA MUSIC....the stunning VISUALS....and last, but not least....the STORY itself....had me glued to my chair and my eyes riveted to the screen. Many (who are accustomed to non-stop action and mindless drivel) will be tempted to "pull the plug" long before the "Intermission" appears on the screen, but to those who admire true film-making at its best, this is a 4K marvel that deserves 2+ hours of your life (which in turn will turn into repeated viewings in the future).

I will say from the outset of my PQ analysis, this will NOT rise to the Top of Tier 0, but it will surely find its way somewhere in the middle or bottom third. I will start with the "negatives" that must be penalized. There is some "inherent softness" though great pains were obviously taken in transferring the restored 70mm film into the 4K Blu-ray. Shots of softness are seen in the opening scene (The Dawn of Man), especially in mid to long range shots. There were some fleeting "out of focus" shots and a bit of aliasing in those same scenes. But in fairness there was appreciable clarity too, with finely-rendered details in apes and craggy rocks.

From there we jump to SPACE where we are treated to brilliant CONTRAST throughout the rest of the movie...with the dazzling WHITE SPACESHIPS next to the BLACKNESS OF SPACE (though I must bring out that there is a fair amount of "dark grays" that make up space...this was easily detected in comparing it with my letter-boxed bars which had PERFECT BLACKS). In the spaceship the contrast is even stronger, with WHITE SPACE SUITS against BLACK and COLORFUL control panels and walls. Speaking of COLORS, the palette is limited but the primaries that were on display were as rich and vibrant as can be. The first instance of this is in a lounge with BRIGHT RED CHAIRS that were absolutely gorgeous. Then you had the red and yellow space suits worn outside the spaceship that really jumped out at you against the darkness of space and the twinkling of stars. And last, but not least, you had a colorful light show at the end that was mesmerizing! This is where DOLBY VISION shines the most!!

One more thing. The razor-sharp clarity inside the spaceship cabin (and other interior scenes) was to-die-for. This clarity carried with it intricate details in clothing and especially in facial texture. Pure EYE CANDY!!

Tier Recommendation: Tier 0* (.66)

PS I could see some going higher than this, but I'm going to be conservative considering the negatives listed above.
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post #25730 of 25813 Old 06-14-2019, 08:39 PM
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Captain Marvel (1080p)

Disappointing....on most levels!

PQ-wise, this will barely make Tier Gold, for it has mediocre blacks (though some of the space scenes were excellent), less-than-stellar details (of course, there were "exceptions to this rule"), so-so colors, and a real lack of depth and clarity in many scenes. Where this "rose to the occasion" was in outdoor, daytime scenes. In those scenes you had plenty of sharpness, depth, and details.

AQ-wise, I was surprised at the level of LFE at times...with this being a Disney release. The DTS:Neural Mix was fantastic at times, most notably in any of the battle scenes in the sky or outer space. All of the surrounds had spot-on precision and I felt I was really "in the middle of the action."

Movie-wise....well, let me just say "I'm glad I opted to rent this instead of buying."

Tier Recommendation: 1.75*
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post #25731 of 25813 Old 06-14-2019, 08:51 PM
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^^^^^^^^^^

I should have added that inherent SOFTNESS, especially in heavy CGI scenes, contributed largely in the lack of clarity, details, depth and inky black levels (which also resulted in a lack of shadow details).

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post #25732 of 25813 Old 06-15-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
Black Hawk Down (UHD)

I finally got around to watching this and it was even better than I had anticipated. Snell, I feel sorry for you when it comes to "hating grain," for I had no problems whatsoever with the grain with the one or two exceptions where it became a bit much when there was DUST from bombing or trucks racing through the city.
.

Well I knew for sure you'd absolutely love the PQ of B.H.D. - as you said and as I, Ralph Potts and many others; the facial detail in the close up shots of BHD are practically second to none. Top 5 material. Texture is on another level completely. Its just some of the shots, panoramic views, landscapes etc that looked more akin to DVD stuff IMO. Maybe I was a little harsh, some of the movie is Tier 0.1 while at its worst maybe tier 3.5, though it mostly lies in between so somewhere around tier 1.


Knew you would enjoy it, which is exactly why I said you shouldn't listen to my review on it
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post #25733 of 25813 Old 06-15-2019, 12:49 PM
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I concur with everything SnellTHX said, though I would dare to put it as my #2 best PQ disc, right after the king, Planet Earth II.



In terms of SnellTHX's top 3, Dunkirk's muted color palette killed it for me, but I must admit that I've never seen Transformers 5 or Interstellar in 4K.

So my top 3 as of right now are:

1. Planet Earth II
2. Billy Flynn's Long Halftime Walk
3. The Great Wall

Honorable mentions go to The Martian and Aquaman.

Tier recommendation: 0 (#2 )

Well I for one cannot understand how anyone who has seen Dunkirk can NOT place it as #1 my ultimate picture king for sure muted colours just seems like a thematic choice... which I would choose if I were Nolan's colourist myself.

But yeah Billy Lynn is phenomenal. I show it to a couple of friends, and they said it was akin to watching a Samsung 8K demo.

I didn't even realise the movie was filmed in HFR. my jaw just dropped and made me forget I was watching a movie... An experience I only ever get from IMAX 15/70mm filmed Nolan movies and Transformers.
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post #25734 of 25813 Old 06-15-2019, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SnellTHX View Post
Well I knew for sure you'd absolutely love the PQ of B.H.D. - as you said and as I, Ralph Potts and many others; the facial detail in the close up shots of BHD are practically second to none. Top 5 material. Texture is on another level completely. Its just some of the shots, panoramic views, landscapes etc that looked more akin to DVD stuff IMO. Maybe I was a little harsh, some of the movie is Tier 0.1 while at its worst maybe tier 3.5, though it mostly lies in between so somewhere around tier 1.


Knew you would enjoy it, which is exactly why I said you shouldn't listen to my review on it
I SMILED from ear to ear when I read your last sentence!

Man, you MUST hate grain with a passion to say that there are scenes that qualify for the middle of Tier 3! Again, IMHO the scenes with the heaviest grain never once hindered details. They did look "grainy" but not to the point of erasing all "redeemable qualities." This begs the question, "How would you rate a scene in a movie like Lawrence of Arabia that features a SANDSTORM?" That has LITERAL GRAIN (GRAINS of sand!!). Would you put it in Tier 3 or below because of this? I think I already know your answer...I think you will say, "Yeah, but in a scene like that WE ARE SUPPOSED TO SEE GRAINS OF SAND, whereas in Black Hawk Down we are seeing 'gritty grain' which we wouldn't see in real life." Did I guess right?

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post #25735 of 25813 Old 06-15-2019, 02:22 PM
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^^^^^^^^^^

Snell, I forgot to put a huge "Smiley Face" at the end of my last post, for my question and comments regarding "grains of sand" were all said in jest!

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post #25736 of 25813 Old 06-15-2019, 04:13 PM
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The annual TV shoot-out judging the best displays is being held this weekend.


https://hdguru.com/15th-annual-tv-sh...e-12th-in-nyc/
I really wish Panasonic's were sold in the USA, just to see how they'd score in VE's annual TV shootout. In Europe, where professionals compare the best displays, including this years US-winner (AG9) and last year's winner in the US (AF9) vs Panasonic's GZ2000, FZ950, EZ1000 and every year most pick Panasonics as TV of the year. Except this one shootout that was sponsored by Philips in which, Philips OLED 903 won. In any case I can't justify Sony & Panasonics premium over LG even if they have superior processing/motion/colour accuracy.


But one thing every year has in common... it's always an OLED lol. PDP won basically every year from 2005-2013, OLED's won every year from 2014-2019 and counting.
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post #25737 of 25813 Old 06-15-2019, 04:20 PM
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^^^^^^^^

I believe that OLEDs will continue to win EVERY YEAR "until" a superior technology (like "MicroLED") comes to market. You simply can't beat a "self-emissive" display with its PERFECT BLACKS, INFINITE CONTRAST and GORGEOUS COLORS. LCD definitely has the title for superior BRIGHTNESS (with some displays having TWICE the nit level of an OLED), but that won't make up for PERFECT BLACKS & INFINITE CONTRAST.

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post #25738 of 25813 Old 06-15-2019, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by djoberg View Post
I SMILED from ear to ear when I read your last sentence!

Man, you MUST hate grain with a passion to say that there are scenes that qualify for the middle of Tier 3! Again, IMHO the scenes with the heaviest grain never once hindered details. They did look "grainy" but not to the point of erasing all "redeemable qualities." This begs the question, "How would you rate a scene in a movie like Lawrence of Arabia that features a SANDSTORM?" That has LITERAL GRAIN (GRAINS of sand!!). Would you put it in Tier 3 or below because of this? I think I already know your answer...I think you will say, "Yeah, but in a scene like that WE ARE SUPPOSED TO SEE GRAINS OF SAND, whereas in Black Hawk Down we are seeing 'gritty grain' which we wouldn't see in real life." Did I guess right?
Well since you put it that way, and I know you ARE joking... but I recently watched Aquaman (I'll post a short review soon) but I'll be 100% honest and say the 'bubbles' and other artefacts in the water sort of distracted me a little bit making the image appear less sharp / clear... which is obviously an added effect and is indeed more realistic as a camera filming through water wouldn't be clear as a sunny day out in the open air...
So would a literal sandstorm of sand grain in Lawrence of Arabia annoy me? yes

but jokes aside... bubbles/blurry water vision / sand storms impair our vision but at least it represents what our own eyes would perceive in the real world if we were under water or in the middle of a desert. Film grain... just does not exist in real life so artificially adding something which doesn't even serve a purpose or improve any aspect should detract from the score given... In my opinion.


We all have our preferences just like some prefer 24 fps over 48, 60, 75, 96, 100, 120, 144 etc...
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post #25739 of 25813 Old 06-15-2019, 07:22 PM
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^^^^^

Like I said in my review of Aquaman, the underwater scenes can be SOFT at times, but that is to be expected. I actually thought they appeared SHARPER than I would have expected. But Snell, ALL of the underwater scenes were IMAX SCENES (i.e. Full Screen!) and that's one of your biggest LIKES!

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post #25740 of 25813 Old 06-18-2019, 06:31 AM
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^^^^^

. But Snell, ALL of the underwater scenes were IMAX SCENES (i.e. Full Screen!) and that's one of your biggest LIKES!
Absolutely, I prefer 1.85:1 / 1.78:1 aspect ratios over the wider formats as it fills up the screen, and yes they may be filmed with 'IMAX' cameras but these were only digital IMAX cameras.. Like Infinity War boasted being the first film to be filmed entirely in IMAX, that's a white lie. Avengers: IW was filmed with Alex/IMAX collaborated digital 3D camera with 5.6K resolution (20 million pixels or so)

the REAL analog IMAX 15/70mm scenes filmed in Nolan movies are with the IMAX MSM-9802 15/70mm camera, that's estimated to be the film equivalent of 18K, and with a 1.44:1 aspect ratio that makes the total resolution to be around 220 million pixels, 11 times more than the digital 'IMAX' and 25 times higher than 4K! So not only does Dunkirk, Interstellar and The Dark Knight rises fill up my entire display, its showing 25(100) times more information than a 4K (1080p) blu-ray disc can show.
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