Cinram to add 15 more Blu-ray lines to Olyphant PA production facility - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 232 Old 02-20-2008, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

I was also told that the new Cinram lines will use a different technology than the one Sony DADC uses for its production lines.

Wasn't specific , I assume Sony has built its own machines, but it was a question of royalties to Sony that a different Blu-ray replication technology was being used.

Thought that was curious.

Yah ... how does that work? If it's a Blu-ray line, how do they get out of paying royalties?
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post #32 of 232 Old 02-20-2008, 09:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

Yes. Cinram uses Singulus lines and the Cinram Huntsville plant will add 4 dual layer lines within the next six months as we have some open floor space for at least 6 lines.

It is great to have an insider from the replication business here! Wish you were here for the last four years .

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Since a Blu-line takes up about the same space as two Spaceline I or II, we will probably start with removing the existing 9 DIC DVD lines and give that space over to printing.

So how does the extra real estate required translate into your end cost for the product? I assume it doesn't translate into automatic 2X the cost because it has displaced two DVD lines.

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Sony DADC is helping Singulus with dual layer BD development so Singulus will be a step behind Sony. Singulus is a world leader in sputtering technology and is probably helping Sony in getting cycle times down. If anyone can figure out a way to avoid using embossing on the 2nd layer, Singulus can.

Is your concern with [wet] embossing the cost of buying the equipment or something else? Agree that experience with sputtering technology may be the ultimate solution to solving the challenges with BD manufacturing. Sometimes one wishes that folks making optical disc formats, also had hard disk manufacturing expertise where such techniques are much more common....

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Kosty. We just finished the latest upgrade on the single layer lines and they are up to about 90% at 4 second cycle time in large runs. The main revisions are the water-cooled disc receivers and the new degassing setup.

Do you mind disclosing similar stats for dual-layer BD discs?

Thanks again for being here. It is much appreciated.
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post #33 of 232 Old 02-20-2008, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Yah ... how does that work? If it's a Blu-ray line, how do they get out of paying royalties?

What makes you think that. The BDA collects royalties since it owners BD. Sony can be completely bypassed for BD (other than being a BDA member and patent holder) because they don't own or control it.
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post #34 of 232 Old 02-20-2008, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by William View Post

What makes you think that. The BDA collects royalties since it owners BD. Sony can be completely bypassed for BD (other than being a BDA member and patent holder) because they don't own or control it.

But as a BDA Member and Patent Holder, they would get royalties ... so how can they be completely bypassed?
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post #35 of 232 Old 02-20-2008, 10:42 AM
 
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What makes you think that. The BDA collects royalties since it owners BD.

BDA absolutely does not do that. Big companies cannot get in the room, create a standard and set the price together in the same sitting. And besides, companies may have patents that read on the standard, whether they were part of the specification process or not. MPEG-2 for example was used in BD format and I am pretty sure many of the companies involved in that standard did not set foot in a BDA meeting.

MPEG-LA is the organization tasked with creating a pool to collect fees. Should it succeed, then it will offer a patent portfolio on behalf of the companies who have chosen to participate. If some company decided to offer independent terms (like Philips recently did), and not be part of the final pool (Philips says they like to be), then they can collect fees also no matter what the pool says.


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Sony can be completely bypassed for BD (other than being a BDA member and patent holder) because they don't own or control it.

There may be some confusion. There are two sets of patents. One is for the format, and the other for equipment used to make it. The latter is not part of any specification. One cannot duplicate what Sony has invented say, in wet embossing or PTM, and ignore compensating them for it. This is just how patents work and has nothing to do with BD format one way or the other.

So the question becomes whether they have created unique technology in creation of discs which has no alternative. If that is the case, then folks better be ready to pay what it takes to license or buy the equipment from them....
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post #36 of 232 Old 02-20-2008, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

But as a BDA Member and Patent Holder, they would get royalties ... so how can they be completely bypassed?

Royalties for the production equipment maybe?

Just a guess...

59 Blu-rays and counting...
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post #37 of 232 Old 02-20-2008, 11:45 AM
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I'm sure the mods have their hands full at the moment ... probably just an honest mistake that they will assuredly resolve as soon as they can.
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post #38 of 232 Old 02-20-2008, 03:50 PM
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I'm sure the mods have their hands full at the moment ... probably just an honest mistake that they will assuredly resolve as soon as they can.

moved to BD software: Thanks for your understanding

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post #39 of 232 Old 02-20-2008, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

I was also told that the new Cinram lines will use a different technology than the one Sony DADC uses for its production lines.

Wasn't specific , I assume Sony has built its own machines, but it was a question of royalties to Sony that a different Blu-ray replication technology was being used.

Thought that was curious.

Definitely curious. Any chance on getting more info on this?
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post #40 of 232 Old 02-20-2008, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Definitely curious. Any chance on getting more info on this?

Cinram is using Singulus Blu-Line instead of Sony DADC lines.

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Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

Now that I have found this thread again, LOL I will answer what I can w/ getting into trouble.

Hehe . I am with you on both fronts.

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It is going to be interesting when the Sony subsidies go away. The only reason we are doing BDs is because the machines we currently have are test-beds and are free. They change so much that they might as well be called Transformers.

One wonders what the total bill is coming to on these new formats. There are so many subsidies it seems on so many fronts.

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I won't know a whole lot about dual layer BD until we get the upgrades installed.

Appreciate you keeping us posted on this. As you see above folks like to celebrate yesterday on BD's manufacturing issues being behind us .
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post #42 of 232 Old 02-21-2008, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post


So how does the extra real estate required translate into your end cost for the product? I assume it doesn't translate into automatic 2X the cost because it has displaced two DVD lines.


Is your concern with [wet] embossing the cost of buying the equipment or something else? Agree that experience with sputtering technology may be the ultimate solution to solving the challenges with BD manufacturing. Sometimes one wishes that folks making optical disc formats, also had hard disk manufacturing expertise where such techniques are much more common....


Do you mind disclosing similar stats for dual-layer BD discs?

Thanks again for being here. It is much appreciated.

Now that I have found this thread again, LOL I will answer what I can w/ getting into trouble.

There is enough floor space and hookups for 4 machines w/o removing any machines and these new machines will be BD dual layer capable.

Any machines we remove will be the ones that only produce 10,000 DVDs per day. Since there are now machines ( and we have 15 of them ) that produce 40,000 DVDs per day those old machines remain idle 9 months out of the year. The other machines produce 20,000 per day and are expected to be idle for 5 or 6 months.

The main factors in cost difference between DVD and BD are equipment cost, scale of economics, and waste BUT that doesn't get us any more than what the studios agree to pay us for the discs. It is going to be interesting when the Sony subsidies go away. The only reason we are doing BDs is because the machines we currently have are test-beds and are free. They change so much that they might as well be called Transformers.

I've experienced embossing during the CD days and it wasn't very efficient compared to even dumb sputtering. I won't know a whole lot about dual layer BD until we get the upgrades installed.

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post #43 of 232 Old 02-21-2008, 12:17 AM
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And, how did you post 38 minutes into the future, Amir?

EDIT: The above comment was in response to Amir's post below, time-stamped at 12:52 AM.

jevans-

Thanks for your interesting information about Blu-ray replication, machinery, and practices. I have sorely missed "insider information" on AVS Forum for the last month or so.

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Looks like we have a bit of "back to the future" going on with AVS. How on earth does my post show up before the one I quoted?
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post #45 of 232 Old 02-21-2008, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Looks like we have a bit of "back to the future" going on with AVS. How on earth does my post show up before the one I quoted?

Magic ...

They've seemingly been doing some work on the forums, probably something was moved around and/or consolidated right around the time you guys were posting.
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post #46 of 232 Old 02-21-2008, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

Now that I have found this thread again, LOL I will answer what I can w/ getting into trouble.

There is enough floor space and hookups for 4 machines w/o removing any machines and these new machines will be BD dual layer capable.

Any machines we remove will be the ones that only produce 10,000 DVDs per day. Since there are now machines ( and we have 15 of them ) that produce 40,000 DVDs per day those old machines remain idle 9 months out of the year. The other machines produce 20,000 per day and are expected to be idle for 5 or 6 months.

The main factors in cost difference between DVD and BD are equipment cost, scale of economics, and waste BUT that doesn't get us any more than what the studios agree to pay us for the discs. It is going to be interesting when the Sony subsidies go away. The only reason we are doing BDs is because the machines we currently have are test-beds and are free. They change so much that they might as well be called Transformers.

I've experienced embossing during the CD days and it wasn't very efficient compared to even dumb sputtering. I won't know a whole lot about dual layer BD until we get the upgrades installed.

I might have missed it earlier, but are the current machines DADC Machines?

Are there any subsidies involved in the new line acquisition? How about media? Is there an expiry for the Sony subsidies? Or can they essentially pull the plug at their leisure?
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post #47 of 232 Old 02-21-2008, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

I might have missed it earlier, but are the current machines DADC Machines?

Are there any subsidies involved in the new line acquisition? How about media? Is there an expiry for the Sony subsidies? Or can they essentially pull the plug at their leisure?

The machines we have are from Singulus. Singulus absorbed Oerlikon earlier this month, so these new lines could have parts from both of these companies. I guess I'll know when we start to install the new lines. LOL

I think most of our ( as a replicator ) subsidies are coming from the media side and the hardware side is too confusing to sit down and figure that one out. I'm pretty sure Sony is giving the studios some cash to help them get discs out and the studios are using that cash to cover the increased cost of disc production. I heard it was around $3 a disc but I would have to over-step my bounds and get into the accounting side of things.

Sony will most likely stop the subsidies very soon or taper them off as the volumes go up. Sony is losing money on Blu-ray right now and it is bad business sense to continue to do so.

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post #48 of 232 Old 02-21-2008, 04:10 PM
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jevans64,

Which Cinram location are you at? I am assuming Huntsville.
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post #49 of 232 Old 02-21-2008, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Looks like we have a bit of "back to the future" going on with AVS. How on earth does my post show up before the one I quoted?

i noticed that with some posts this afternoon in a different forum.
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post #50 of 232 Old 02-21-2008, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

I think most of our ( as a replicator ) subsidies are coming from the media side and the hardware side is too confusing to sit down and figure that one out. I'm pretty sure Sony is giving the studios some cash to help them get discs out and the studios are using that cash to cover the increased cost of disc production. I heard it was around $3 a disc but I would have to over-step my bounds and get into the accounting side of things.

Sony will most likely stop the subsidies very soon or taper them off as the volumes go up. Sony is losing money on Blu-ray right now and it is bad business sense to continue to do so.

jevans64,

Do you have any impression of Sony's level of concern wrt disc production capacity vs demand, and competing replication? It seems like Sony is in a puzzling position of being both the best disc replicator but potentially not big enough to meet future demand. I wonder how they balance subsidies while still encouraging replication competition? Surely they don't want to be the only replicator out there that can replicate enough to meet demand and still make a profit?
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post #51 of 232 Old 02-21-2008, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

Cinram is using Singulus Blu-Line instead of Sony DADC lines.

That would certainly explain it! Thanks.
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i noticed that with some posts this afternoon in a different forum.

There was an eclipse last night. Maybe that messed with the bits.
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post #53 of 232 Old 02-21-2008, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellokeith View Post

jevans64,

Do you have any impression of Sony's level of concern wrt disc production capacity vs demand, and competing replication? It seems like Sony is in a puzzling position of being both the best disc replicator but potentially not big enough to meet future demand. I wonder how they balance subsidies while still encouraging replication competition? Surely they don't want to be the only replicator out there that can replicate enough to meet demand and still make a profit?

I think the only concern for Sony is if they can keep up with demand. There are essentially only two players in BD replication, Sony and Cinram. Technicolor might be in there somewhere but I'm not sure whether they are offloading their BD orders or not. Each have their own "captive" studios which is guaranteed income. Sony owns Columbia / Tristar and Cinram owns Warner's replication and distribution. The other major studios have contracts ( N. America or international ) with Technicolor, Cinram, or Bertelsmann ( which brings you back to Sony BMG ).

Who does what in the replication business is pretty hard to follow. LOL

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post #54 of 232 Old 02-21-2008, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Williams View Post

jevans64,

Which Cinram location are you at? I am assuming Huntsville.

I'm at the Huntsville, Alabama facility.

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post #55 of 232 Old 02-21-2008, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

The machines we have are from Singulus. Singulus absorbed Oerlikon earlier this month, so these new lines could have parts from both of these companies. I guess I'll know when we start to install the new lines. LOL

I think most of our ( as a replicator ) subsidies are coming from the media side and the hardware side is too confusing to sit down and figure that one out. I'm pretty sure Sony is giving the studios some cash to help them get discs out and the studios are using that cash to cover the increased cost of disc production. I heard it was around $3 a disc but I would have to over-step my bounds and get into the accounting side of things.

Sony will most likely stop the subsidies very soon or taper them off as the volumes go up. Sony is losing money on Blu-ray right now and it is bad business sense to continue to do so.

Sony was subsidizing to the tune of $3 per disc?

Ye gads.

Hopefully your extra capacity soon and more orders will bring cost down so that you can make more profit and the studio costs will go down as well.

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post #56 of 232 Old 02-22-2008, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Anyone calculate out what 2 old BD lines at Olyphant, 15 new BD lines at Olyphant and 4-6 BD machines at Huntsville can do for Cinram's Blu-ray production capacity?

What kind of production capacity and release schedule would that support for 250,000 title runs or 25,000-50,000 unit production runs?

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post #57 of 232 Old 02-22-2008, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

Sony was subsidizing to the tune of $3 per disc?

Ye gads.

Hopefully your extra capacity soon and more orders will bring cost down so that you can make more profit and the studio costs will go down as well.

I read that statement as $3 per disc to produce not $3 per disc in subsidies from Sony (I guess they could be doing that so the disc pressing is free for the studio as an incentive).

As for how much they are ramping up production, I guess until we really see some increase in sales, it doesn't matter at the moment.
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post #58 of 232 Old 02-22-2008, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

I'm at the Huntsville, Alabama facility.

Mind if I stop by for a visit next time I'm in the area?

BTW, thanks for the posting this info, very interesting.
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post #59 of 232 Old 02-22-2008, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


I read that statement as $3 per disc to produce not $3 per disc in subsidies from Sony (I guess they could be doing that so the disc pressing is free for the studio as an incentive).

As for how much they are ramping up production, I guess until we really see some increase in sales, it doesn't matter at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

The machines we have are from Singulus. Singulus absorbed Oerlikon earlier this month, so these new lines could have parts from both of these companies. I guess I'll know when we start to install the new lines. LOL

I think most of our ( as a replicator ) subsidies are coming from the media side and the hardware side is too confusing to sit down and figure that one out.

I'm pretty sure Sony is giving the studios some cash to help them get discs out and the studios are using that cash to cover the increased cost of disc production. I heard it was around $3 a disc

but I would have to over-step my bounds and get into the accounting side of things.

Sony will most likely stop the subsidies very soon or taper them off as the volumes go up.

Sony is losing money on Blu-ray right now and it is bad business sense to continue to do so.

I read that as a $3 subsidy per unit. Even if its $3 total replication costs per Blu-ray disc to replicate thats a heck of a lot more than than DVD (or HD DVD RIP) DL DVD is well under $1.

Hope volumes and increased efficiencies start to bring those costs down for Blu-ray so studios can make more profit, the break even point for sales goes lower for a BD release, and more niche catalog or library content on Blu-ray will get released. Hope the additional capacity gets up an running as soon as possible too.

It doesn't matter at the moment, but it might by the fall when hardware sales accelerate. If it affects the release schedule or in Universal or Paramount finding capacity to press their BD discs it will start to matter even sooner.

It will be fixed in the future, we will just have to live with the Blu-ray capacity and replication costs that exist now and in the near future.

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post #60 of 232 Old 02-22-2008, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuprSlow View Post

Mind if I stop by for a visit next time I'm in the area?

BTW, thanks for the posting this info, very interesting.

Any visit would have to be pre-approved by the Director of Operations. We DO have occasional tours for executive-types and local schools and they go through the pre-approval process. I was barely able to get a "pop tour" for my fiancee when she wanted to see what I do. LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

I read that as a $3 subsidy per unit. Even if its $3 total replication costs per Blu-ray disc to replicate thats a heck of a lot more than than DVD (or HD DVD RIP) DL DVD is well under $1.

Hope volumes and increased efficiencies start to bring those costs down for Blu-ray so studios can make more profit, the break even point for sales goes lower for a BD release, and more niche catalog or library content on Blu-ray will get released. Hope the additional capacity gets up an running as soon as possible too.

It doesn't matter at the moment, but it might by the fall when hardware sales accelerate. If it affects the release schedule or in Universal or Paramount finding capacity to press their BD discs it will start to matter even sooner.

It will be fixed in the future, we will just have to live with the Blu-ray capacity and replication costs that exist now and in the near future.

The $3 per disc was just a guesstimate based on our cost vs. what I gleaned from various sources. I'm more on the technical end and know little about the accounting / billing end and don't have computer access to the invoice data. The Huntsville location is still using an archaic AS400-based system for that stuff with various levels of access. When I went from VHS technical to DVD technical, I lost all that access.

I'll ask around on Monday or Tuesday and see if I can get some fresh numbers as far as our cost goes. Only the studio accountants are probably going to know about any subsidies Sony is paying out.

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