TEST RESULTS ON UPSCALING: XA2 vs. SDI+Crystallio 2 - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 291 Old 05-13-2007, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

Does the test pattern look the same from the XA2 at all resolutions above 480p (bypassing the D2)? 720p and 1080i?

larry

As long as the XA2 is scaling the error is there. Both 720p and 1080i show it.

If I feed 480p and bypass the AVM50 (allowing the display to scale), it is also eliminated for the most part. The Pearl doesn't do quite as good a job as the AVM50 though.
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post #272 of 291 Old 05-13-2007, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Here are pics.
The first is the XA2 doing all the scaling to 1080p
The second is allowing the Anthem/Gennum to scale from 480p to 1080p.

I see the same difference using a Crystalio II.
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post #273 of 291 Old 05-13-2007, 03:57 PM
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Same here with my DLP TV doing the sacling to 1080p vs the XA-2's 1080p/1080i/720p.

I get the same line errors as cpcat's pictures.

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post #274 of 291 Old 05-13-2007, 07:09 PM
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Sorry for the dumb question, but what is being tested in those pics? Just curious, as I am pretty new to this stuff.

Not sure what to make of this now. I have the OPPO 981 and have been eyeing the HD-XA2 based on some of the comments in this and other threads. Now I'm not sure.
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post #275 of 291 Old 05-13-2007, 08:47 PM
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It's a resolution test pattern on the test disc "Avia".
Basically shows that the scaler in the Toshiba "introduces" some problems, and can't display the test pattern correctly[pic1].
However watching DVDs I can't find anything wrong with the picture, or at least not sure what to look for, but it is clearly there on the test pattern.

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post #276 of 291 Old 05-19-2007, 12:51 PM
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I recently purchased an Oppo 970 to feed my Gennum VXP-based Anthem AVM50 480i via HDMI. The picture is noticeably smoother/more artifact-free and with less noise to my eyes than either 480p or 1080p from the XA2. It's also noticeably better than feeding 480i over component (less artifacting and noise) from either the XA2 or my older Sony DVP9000. The jump in PQ quality over 480p from the XA2 was significant for me on a 110 inch screen (Sony Pearl pj) and I'd cautiously say even just short of dramatic.

This confuses me somewhat considering the contrasting results of the OP feeding 480i via SDI to the Gennum-based Crystallio II. IMO the Gennum-based AVM50 handily outperforms the XA2 for SDDVD sources. SDI should have provided still yet another step up in quality.

As has been mentioned, scaling is only part of the equation. For completeness' sake, however, here are all three pics of the AVIA resolution pattern. Be sure to maximize them for clarity.
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post #277 of 291 Old 05-19-2007, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

This confuses me somewhat considering the contrasting results of the OP feeding 480i via SDI to the Gennum-based Crystallio II. IMO the Gennum-based AVM50 handily outperforms the XA2 for SDDVD sources. SDI should have provided still yet another step up in quality.

Probably that the implementation of the Gennum chip in the Anthem D2/AVM50 is simply superior to the implementation in the Crystalio II. That's all. People always think that a high-end scaler MUST be better then a pre/pro for video processing, but in this case, it's not. I know it goes against everything people in here think must be right, but it's like that. Sometimes a manufacturer break the rules and make a brack-through product. Just like alot of D2/AVM50 owners who made the switch from the DVDO VP50 to the D2/AVM50 because, to them, the D2/AVM50 was simply better for picture quality.

cpcat, I'm not surprised at your results at all, since Gennum and Anthem head offices are near each other and both companies did work closely together to get it done right in the Anthem pre/pros.
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post #278 of 291 Old 05-19-2007, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

I recently purchased an Oppo 970 to feed my Gennum VXP-based Anthem AVM50 480i via HDMI. The picture is noticeably smoother/more artifact-free and with less noise to my eyes than either 480p or 1080p from the XA2. It's also noticeably better than feeding 480i over component (less artifacting and noise) from either the XA2 or my older Sony DVP9000. The jump in PQ quality over 480p from the XA2 was significant for me on a 110 inch screen (Sony Pearl pj) and I'd cautiously say even just short of dramatic.

This confuses me somewhat considering the contrasting results of the OP feeding 480i via SDI to the Gennum-based Crystallio II. IMO the Gennum-based AVM50 handily outperforms the XA2 for SDDVD sources. SDI should have provided still yet another step up in quality.

As has been mentioned, scaling is only part of the equation. For completeness' sake, however, here are all three pics of the AVIA resolution pattern. Be sure to maximize them for clarity.

I am still uncertain if anyone is saying for sure we see this in the upscaled sd-dvd? I see comments for and against. But based on the 3 pics, it looks like 480p out of the HD-Xa2 should be better than 1080i? I wonder if in practice this shows up or only on certain types of video material or not at all.

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post #279 of 291 Old 05-20-2007, 06:12 AM
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Before I got the Oppo, I preferred 480p output from the XA2 for DVD's. The deinterlacing is very good.

For any other output other than 480p (1080p, 1080i, 720p), the player scales the image to the respective resolution. The scaling by the XA2 produces artifacts and therefore actually results in loss of resolution. Whether this is visible with normal viewing I don't know (I doubt it). This could also depend on your screen size/viewing distance.

It appears the player is also adding edge enhancement to upscaled images (even with the edge enhancement setting off). EE of 1 at 480p looks about equivalent to EE of zero with 1080p output when you look at a sharpness test pattern. Therefore, if you like the look of edge enhancement that the 1080p output is providing, simply put the 480p EE at 1 and you'll have the same EE as 1080 out without the scaling errors (assuming your display scales better than the XA2). Personally, I think EE is almost always a bad thing.

The other difference people are seeing likely has to do with colorspace. Your TV may be automatically switching to HD colorspace with the 1080p/i input from the player. This will produce colors which are slightly more vivid but this is technically inaccurate for SDDVD. There may be some who actually prefer this though.

The other processing available are the noise reduction settings and as far as I can tell they are applied uniformly irrespective of the scaling setting for SDDVD.
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post #280 of 291 Old 05-20-2007, 10:44 AM
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I see the same thing as you on Avia, but I don't see evidence of EE on program material even with the EE at 2 which is my prefered setting. Leaving EE at 0 the picture looks "dull" especially compared to my Oppo 970 in 1080i mode. I don't have an out board scaler like you have, so it's either the player or my Sami DLP tv that does the scaling. The TV does the scaling without the "thick line" just like your Crystalio, but on actual programs I always prefered the Toshiba's picture[EE2] over either the Oppo or the TV's scaling to 1080p, although only by a slight margin. The little Oppo kicks ass for $150 no doubt.

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post #281 of 291 Old 05-20-2007, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Before I got the Oppo, I preferred 480p output from the XA2 for DVD's. The deinterlacing is very good.

For any other output other than 480p (1080p, 1080i, 720p), the player scales the image to the respective resolution. The scaling by the XA2 produces artifacts and therefore actually results in loss of resolution. Whether this is visible with normal viewing I don't know (I doubt it). This could also depend on your screen size/viewing distance.

It appears the player is also adding edge enhancement to upscaled images (even with the edge enhancement setting off). EE of 1 at 480p looks about equivalent to EE of zero with 1080p output when you look at a sharpness test pattern. Therefore, if you like the look of edge enhancement that the 1080p output is providing, simply put the 480p EE at 1 and you'll have the same EE as 1080 out without the scaling errors (assuming your display scales better than the XA2). Personally, I think EE is almost always a bad thing.

The other difference people are seeing likely has to do with colorspace. Your TV may be automatically switching to HD colorspace with the 1080p/i input from the player. This will produce colors which are slightly more vivid but this is technically inaccurate for SDDVD. There may be some who actually prefer this though.

The other processing available are the noise reduction settings and as far as I can tell they are applied uniformly irrespective of the scaling setting for SDDVD.


I have a colorspace question with my Xa2... my plasma is a Pioneer 5060hd, which has the ability to handle both colorspace formats, standard and enhanced, or standard and PC as I believe most people refer to them as. Its resolution is 1080i. Cpcat what would you recommend as settings on the HD-Xa2 and Pioneer plasma for it at 1080i and also aT 480P?

I will say the HD-XA2 with an EE of 1 at 1080i seems to be my Pioneer 59vi dvd player 480i feed into the Panel for image quality and detail by a fair amount.

owner of several Samsung LCD Panels
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post #282 of 291 Old 05-20-2007, 01:51 PM
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Is there a colorspace setting on the XA-2?

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post #283 of 291 Old 05-21-2007, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZtop View Post

I have a colorspace question with my Xa2... my plasma is a Pioneer 5060hd, which has the ability to handle both colorspace formats, standard and enhanced, or standard and PC as I believe most people refer to them as. Its resolution is 1080i. Cpcat what would you recommend as settings on the HD-Xa2 and Pioneer plasma for it at 1080i and also aT 480P?

I will say the HD-XA2 with an EE of 1 at 1080i seems to be my Pioneer 59vi dvd player 480i feed into the Panel for image quality and detail by a fair amount.

Those sound like black level settings. Most likely you'd leave it on "standard" assuming you are using HDMI or component. If you are using DVI, you might need to switch it to "PC" or "enhanced" depending on how the XA2 is doing RGB. The A1/XA1 with latest firmware provides RGB at PC levels for DVI.

The colorspace settings I was referrring to are actually HD vs. SD color i.e. rec. 709 vs. rec. 601. Your display is likely automatically switching between these two depending on the input resolution.

The use of the terms can become confusing.
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post #284 of 291 Old 05-21-2007, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Is there a colorspace setting on the XA-2?

No. There is an enhanced black level setting. This never functioned at all in the A1. I've not checked to see with the XA2 as I've left it off anyway.
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post #285 of 291 Old 05-21-2007, 09:26 AM
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That's what I thought. The black level setting don't function through the HDMI output on the XA-2, at least that's what I was told by my ISF calibrator guy. It certainly didn't make any difference on movies, I haven't tried ant test pattern for that.

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post #286 of 291 Old 06-25-2007, 01:09 PM
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If Lyle Loveit likes the Reon, then so do I. Thanks Lyle
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post #287 of 291 Old 10-28-2007, 03:11 PM
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How does the REON pq compare to a HTPC using FFDShow with LimitedSharpening?
Are they comparable?
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post #288 of 291 Old 10-28-2007, 06:20 PM
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Is there any reason to believe different players will perform better or worse if they contain the Reon chip?

I'm debating getting an XA2 to replace my A2 (coupled with PS3) or hold out for the Samsung duo 5000 player that will do HD-DVD/BD and also contain the Reon chip.

Anyone on here compared the Reon performance in a Sammy BD player vs. the XA2?
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post #289 of 291 Old 10-28-2007, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchuckp View Post

Is there any reason to believe different players will perform better or worse if they contain the Reon chip?

I'm debating getting an XA2 to replace my A2 (coupled with PS3) or hold out for the Samsung duo 5000 player that will do HD-DVD/BD and also contain the Reon chip.

Anyone on here compared the Reon performance in a Sammy BD player vs. the XA2?

Apparently, the Reon rocks. Read the first post.

I'm more interested in how it compares to FFDShow with AviSynth.
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post #290 of 291 Old 10-28-2007, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorelevitt View Post

Test 5 - Picture Detail - here we had a slight problem due to the fact that the XA2 would only output the test disk at 4:3 and not 16:9. I've only seen this with the HQV test disk and not any movies.

Strange as it may sound, if you set the XA2 to output 4:3, it will then output the HQV DVD properly at 16:9.

Edit: OMG, this thread is old.

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #291 of 291 Old 07-13-2017, 12:35 PM
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Love this thread. Proud owner of two region free XA2 units, and still using them for my classic film and concert DVD's. Running the XA2 through my Oppo 103D to take advantage of the Darbee processor.

Has there been a Blu-ray player, or Ultra HD Player, released that has dethroned the XA2/Reon for upscaling? I know the Oppo 83 and 93 are comparable, but the XA2 is easily superior to the 103D.

Last edited by jra166; 07-13-2017 at 12:44 PM.
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