TEST RESULTS ON UPSCALING: XA2 vs. SDI+Crystallio 2 - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorelevitt View Post

You know there was never any reason to turn on the edge enhancement because the natural image was so sharp both for DVD's and HD-DVD's. But I'll take a look at it tomorrow evening and report back. I generally like to do these qualitative tests with a second pair of impartial eyes so that it just isn't "my" opinion alone.

Thank you, looking forward to it!
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post #62 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 04:40 AM
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This sounds like a lot of good news for the XA2. How does the HD-A2 compare in terms with the XA2, its not going to completley blow it out of the water is it?
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post #63 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 05:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

I don't disagree with you. However, it should be noted that the HQV test disc surely doesn't contain any sequences which could put any HQV processor into bad light. HQV would be stupid to release such a disc. So an independent disc could possibly show some shortcomings of HQV processors which Gennum processors might not have. I'm NOT saying that this will actually be the case. I'm just saying that it's no surprise that a HQV processor never totally slips with a HQV test disc.

As a scientist, I for one welcome:

1. Others to repeat the tests that Tom and I did on the XA2 ReonVX vs. the CII Gennum VXP.

2. Do additional tests on these processors with OTHER test disks.

Please post any other test results you find and that lets any others independently confirm them. The scientific method at work!

Please keep in mind though-- that we didn't only look at the HQV tests. I know Tom and I didn't completely agree on the HQV test for detail resolution but when we QUALITATIVELY looked at a series of SD DVD movies, there was no question that the XA2 image was superior to the CII's image. I think in the end, its the qualitative perception of what we see that's more important than the specific tests since ALL processing aspects are taken in by the human eye when watching the movies. You'll note that others who have purchased the XA2 and are qualitatively comparing it to other processors they have used are also claiming it is producing the best image they too have ever seen.
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post #64 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 05:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Lorelevitt, thanks for posting your comparisions.

I do have one critical question: How does the XA2 handle the colorspace conversion of SD DVDs? Does it transform Rec.601 SD colorspace to HD Rec.709 spec?

Maybe Tom can answer this one-- I have no idea what's going no between the enhanced colorspace (HDMI 1.3) on the XA2 and the colorspace on the SD DVD. My guess is its outputting whatever the SD DVD colorspace normally is after doing its computations for upscaling and deinterlacing the larger color space. I don't know what colorspace capabilities the SI ReonVX chip can handle.
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post #65 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inca View Post

This sounds like a lot of good news for the XA2. How does the HD-A2 compare in terms with the XA2, its not going to completley blow it out of the water is it?

You'll have to find someone who has an A2 and an XA2 to do that A/B comparison.
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post #66 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 05:46 AM
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Thanks for the reply. I guess I really can't complain about the HD-A2s upscaling ability as I got it for realy cheap and I am still impressed by its upscaling ability. An example, I watched romancing the stone, part of a boxed set I got for Christmas, and I was expecting pretty bad quality. But I was completely blown away, mostly with the transfer that the movie got, but also with the upscaling provided by the HD-A2. All the jungle scenes looked pretty damned close to OTA HD quality, I was really impressed, I was fearing that this movie would be horrid but its one of the best SD transfers I have seen so far.
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post #67 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 06:30 AM
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Great review. Does the XA2 support vertical stretching for those of us with CH set ups? Thanks.
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post #68 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder View Post

Great review. Does the XA2 support vertical stretching for those of us with CH set ups? Thanks.

You know I have no idea. I can check for you tonight but perhaps another forum member can post the answer sooner today.
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post #69 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 07:01 AM
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the one area in the DVDO disc that the HQV doesn't do too well is the edge processing clips, ropes/ships/etc. But that's video, so for the purpose of film it's probably not applicable.

.... actually my earlier post just wanted to say the HQV players almost always do well on HQV discs. It's most definitely not questioning the validity of the tests. The test disc is just one aspect of your tests. I trust your findings and the overall conclusion. This is something many ppl want to do but do not have the resources.

Personally I always believe the closer the VP chip is to the source, the better the result. As soon as you go into an interface, SDI or HDMI, there is always a possibility of filtering, mismatch, AC/DC noise, etc. In this regard a board with HQV builtin has inherent advantage over an external VP. So it's no surprise the XA2 can perform better.
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post #70 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dschuman View Post

The Oppo 970 outclassed ALL DVD players

Many HD A1 owners would disagree with that statement.
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post #71 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorelevitt View Post

You know I have no idea. I can check for you tonight but perhaps another forum member can post the answer sooner today.

Thanks, I appreciate it!
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post #72 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 07:24 AM
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How about ZOOM feature? Does the XA2 have one at all? Still looking for a vertical stretch zoom or my 2.35:1 setup.

Thanks.

-Mark AKA A/Vspec
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post #73 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 08:30 AM
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Hi Guys - thanks for your efforts - it's always fun and challenging to any kind of side-by-side AV tests.
I find this strange, as with film material - both VPs will have done a decent job of 3:2 pulldown detection with the disks mentioned.
So what is being tested here? Is it a long video chain versus a short video chain? Scaling engines? The Pioneer versus the XA2? HDMI1 versus HDMI2 on the display? There are all sorts of variables in this - some of which are adjustments on the CII and some are differences in the chain and some are environmental.
I'm just not convinced that what we're testing here is HQV versus VXP or XA2 versus SDI+Crystalio.
For me, it's one of those tests which I would like to see with my own eyes and have control over. So maybe I'll give it a go if I get hold of a XE1 (Euro XA2) anytime soon.

What is great though is that people can buy an XA2 safe in the knowledge that they can ditch their DVD players and enjoy a great picture. Well done Toshiba - I hope it's not costing you too much in subsidies

BTW did you try the internal media player in the CII with a DVD rip? That would have been interesting too.
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post #74 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 09:02 AM
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is there any way to route external sources through the toshiba xa2? (by the way, i'm still waiting on mine) what about cable, hd and sd, is there anyway to get around using a processor for scaling, etc?
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post #75 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordong11 View Post

BTW: I just finished watching the LOTR trilogy, It was like watching it again for the 1st time all over again. There is almost no need to buy them on HD(well I will anyway), the upconversion is so good. Honestly, my friends do not believe it's not HD DVD, I'm getting "Wow", "simply amazing", "I gotta have one" from them.

Wow!

Considering that the LoTR DVDs are some of the most filtered, un-detailed standard def discs I've ever seen, the HD-XA2 must be doing a hell of a good job. Unless your friends were wowed by the quality of the cinematography rather than the video transfer as so many reviewers did...

BTW, regarding the Oppo. It's quite rightly raved about because in its' price range, it's excellent. But it's still a Faroudja-based player and I imagine the HD-XA2 will run circles around it with the chipset it has.

David Mackenzie
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US Correspondent & Tech Consultant, HDTVtest
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post #76 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tryingtimes View Post

So what is being tested here? Is it a long video chain versus a short video chain? Scaling engines? The Pioneer versus the XA2? HDMI1 versus HDMI2 on the display? There are all sorts of variables in this - some of which are adjustments on the CII and some are differences in the chain and some are environmental.
I'm just not convinced that what we're testing here is HQV versus VXP or XA2 versus SDI+Crystalio.
For me, it's one of those tests which I would like to see with my own eyes and have control over.

I have a CII VPS3300 so there is no internal media drive.

On the other score, we could endlessly argue over the control variables and the myriad of permutations of settings. But rather than do that, as I said earlier I call on other AVS members to repeat these and other test comparisons of the XA2 against various equipment. It will the "combined opinion" of everyone that lends weight to any of our conclusions.

I've designed enough laboratory experiments to feel that we were testing the VXP against the Reon. I have previously checked out my HDMI1 and HDMI2 ports and they are identically set. Most folks on this forum agree that an SDI output into and external processor is probably the purest external output from an SD DVD player. There may be some debate about the color space translation but that's not what we were testing in the HQV test disk and there was no control over that on the devices used in the display chain (for the XA2 nor an SDI-fed CII).

So go out, have some fun and I await more comparisons. One thing I think most will agree on is that the BR players currently on the market are far inferior for SD DVD upscaling.
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post #77 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darryl b View Post

is there any way to route external sources through the toshiba xa2? (by the way, i'm still waiting on mine) what about cable, hd and sd, is there anyway to get around using a processor for scaling, etc?

trying to get an inexpensive video processor, huh.....

can't be done-- there are only output ports on the device except for RS232, ethernet and USB.
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post #78 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 01:05 PM
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Does the Reon still do its magic if set for 1080i output? I'm looking at going from the A1 to the XA2 if I can get significantly better SD performance, but I need it to work via 1080i60 or 1080p24 output - 1080p60 does not work for me.
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post #79 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

Considering that the LoTR DVDs are some of the most filtered, un-detailed standard def discs I've ever seen, the HD-XA2 must be doing a hell of a good job. Unless your friends were wowed by the quality of the cinematography rather than the video transfer as so many reviewers did...

Did you get some bad DVDs or what? I thought LoTR transfers were excellent, and I can't wait to run them through my XA2! Ice Age 2 looked fantastic on the XA2 when I watched it this weekend.
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post #80 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorelevitt View Post

I have a CII VPS3300 so there is no internal media drive.

On the other score, we could endlessly argue over the control variables and the myriad of permutations of settings. But rather than do that, as I said earlier I call on other AVS members to repeat these and other test comparisons of the XA2 against various equipment. It will the "combined opinion" of everyone that lends weight to any of our conclusions.

I've designed enough laboratory experiments to feel that we were testing the VXP against the Reon. I have previously checked out my HDMI1 and HDMI2 ports and they are identically set. Most folks on this forum agree that an SDI output into and external processor is probably the purest external output from an SD DVD player. There may be some debate about the color space translation but that's not what we were testing in the HQV test disk and there was no control over that on the devices used in the display chain (for the XA2 nor an SDI-fed CII).

So go out, have some fun and I await more comparisons. One thing I think most will agree on is that the BR players currently on the market are far inferior for SD DVD upscaling.

I really appreciate your efforts in an honest comparison within your system. I am always surprised that folks that get some great info, then only to become critics of the methods or create a laundry list of additional "lab tests" that they would like the contributing member to also run through. I think it's great the way you've approach this...here's how we did the tests, here's our equipment lists and here's the results. This is one approach and should be the start for "other" comparisons too. Not the end all be all....so for those critical of the methods or want additional testing...maybe we all (including myself) should step up and contribute to this thread. I'm lookig forward to getting my player and adding to the results.

Ron
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post #81 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Rambler358 View Post

Did you get some bad DVDs or what? I thought LoTR transfers were excellent

Same here. Just about a month or so ago we watched the first two on my Denon 2930CI. PQ and SQ on both are terrific.
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post #82 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rboster View Post

I really appreciate your efforts in an honest comparison within your system. I am always surprised that folks that get some great info, then only to become critics of the methods or create a laundry list of additional "lab tests" that they would like the contributing member to also run through. I think it's great the way you've approach this...here's how we did the tests, here's our equipment lists and here's the results. This is one approach and should be the start for "other" comparisons too. Not the end all be all....so for those critical of the methods or want additional testing...maybe we all (including myself) should step up and contribute to this thread. I'm lookig forward to getting my player and adding to the results.

Ron

Ron-- thanks for the very thoughtful remarks. I'm always reminded why I liked science and math in high school-- there was always a right and wrong answer on the tests. History and English required a qualitative analysis of the essays/reports and I didn't always agree with the teacher's opinion of my writing!

This past weekend in addition to these tests, I also took apart my XA2 out-of-the-box and shot pictures for everyone to see:

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782125

I strongly believe in sharing information and our options on this site and eventually/hopefully reaching a concensus. Its really hard to see professionals at the Blu-Ray presentation in Las Vegas lie through their teeth about having won the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray competition. They would make Richard Nixon proud!
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post #83 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

Wow!

Considering that the LoTR DVDs are some of the most filtered, un-detailed standard def discs I've ever seen, the HD-XA2 must be doing a hell of a good job. Unless your friends were wowed by the quality of the cinematography rather than the video transfer as so many reviewers did...

BTW, regarding the Oppo. It's quite rightly raved about because in its' price range, it's excellent. But it's still a Faroudja-based player and I imagine the HD-XA2 will run circles around it with the chipset it has.


I'll be the first to admit my friends arent the most knowledgeable HD peeps, but they all own HD TV's and PS3's.....and yes LOTR(I must say the newer the Disk the better, the DL formats play best), does look almost like HD, not 1 grain..cystal clear. Example: Moria Crypt room fight scene, this scene is very hard on DVD players, and XA2 deals with it like childsplay. In the past all the motion in that scene would make difficult on the eyes. Not anymore.

Both the Oppo, and my Samsung HD960(1080P) are Faroudja based, partially why the Samsung is so good for the price. I would buy the Samsung DVD-HD960 over the new 1080P Oppo..because I believe the Samsung is more bang for the buck, and I only need basic HDMI SPDIF connections. Plus the Samsung has excellent features that use easily. I paid $150 for the Samsung 2 months ago, at that time I thought it was the cats meow for the superb 1080P unconversion(for price), Oppo had not released its 1080P player.

Added: LOTR-- Return of the King Example, Extended version disk 1

It's the subtle things too that I wasn't looking for, but jumped out at me. Until the XA2 got in my home, I never knew the Elven cloaks the fellowhip wears has a paisley-like pattern. Gandalph the White Robes, have a raised flowered quilt pattern. These are just a couple of details among many I never knew existed because the XA2 is so supreme, I have seen these dvd too many times to say

It's all about 1080P/24 & HD audio
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post #84 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 08:38 PM
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Thanks for the kind words about Reon picture quality!

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Silicon Optix, Inc.
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post #85 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorelevitt View Post

I can not imagine improving the picture produced from the XA2.

I can! The new Toshiba still has the ugly "chroma bug" issue on standard DVD playback. Saw the A2 (not XA2) the other day and any satruated Red object looks all jaggies. The HD-DVD playback seems fine though. Connection was 720p HDMI to a Mit 3100 DLP projector in 720p 1:1 mode on a 90" diag screen.

regards,

Li On

PS: why can't they get it ALL right?
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post #86 of 291 Old 01-08-2007, 11:59 PM
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OK I just wanna know one thing.... is the upscaling quality of the XA2 better than any combination FFDShow/ZoomPlayer/AVSynth you can get in an HTPC? Even with the "sharpen" filter?
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post #87 of 291 Old 01-09-2007, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by lorelevitt View Post

You know I have no idea. I can check for you tonight .

Did you get a chance to check whether the unit can vertical stretch for CH set ups? Thanks.
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post #88 of 291 Old 01-09-2007, 03:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On View Post

I can! The new Toshiba still has the ugly "chroma bug" issue on standard DVD playback. Saw the A2 (not XA2) the other day and any satruated Red object looks all jaggies. The HD-DVD playback seems fine though. Connection was 720p HDMI to a Mit 3100 DLP projector in 720p 1:1 mode on a 90" diag screen.

regards,

Li On

PS: why can't they get it ALL right?

Li-- if you're going to comment, it would make more sense if you brought up a confirmed issue on the XA2 and not the A2. I don't like comparing apples with oranges.
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post #89 of 291 Old 01-09-2007, 03:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder View Post

Did you get a chance to check whether the unit can vertical stretch for CH set ups? Thanks.

As far as I could tell examing the remote and the box, there is no zoom function. You're limited to specifying 4:3 or 16:9 in the setup menu and that's it for image size.
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post #90 of 291 Old 01-09-2007, 03:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

Thanks for the kind words about Reon picture quality!

Andy K.
ASIC Design Engineer
Silicon Optix, Inc.

Andy it is very well deserved! Now someone needs to build a sub-1000 video processor/switcher with the Reon!
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