Bluray BD-J delays causing HD DVD releases to be HELD BACK?! - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 279 Old 03-22-2007, 05:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Topweasel View Post

Also this might be a sign of how far away BD-J is from being a reality. Maybe this is there way of saying we gave you enough time and still nothing. You would think that they would announced other IME based movies long before Announcing this expensive set, like blood diamond. My guess is Blood Diamond, and HP are next. My next question is when do they get so desperate that they just start co-releasing and just cut out the IME (or make it a sound track like MI:3) for the Blu-Ray version.

I think RDjam was on to something and I think this huge title and the date it is going to be released on lend credence to RDjams theory.

Absolutely. I read all of the attacks against him, and I did not get involved because I thought he was only speculating. But now? He's da man!

You are right this is just the beginning of many exclusive HD DVD first releases. The BR guys can wait till 2009 if they want. i want my Matrix now!
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post #212 of 279 Old 03-22-2007, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

We can't be sure that they weren't. Certainly, everything up until the point everyone wrote in to Warner seemed to indicate that they were.

I am quite sure that the outcry and feedback from the buyers was very effective in helping set their ongoing policy in stone. And it certainly didn't hurt to let them know how we felt.

So all in all, I am very satisfied...


Certainly everything up to that point suggested WB was ready to release The Matrix. By itself.

Isn't it just as likely that WB waited for the other two Matrix movies along with the Animatrix to be encoded and the extras to be set up for the HD DVD release of the trilogy rather than just give us the first movie? Isn't that even more likely a scenario than blaming Blu-ray for everything as you did across two threads in two forums?
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post #213 of 279 Old 03-22-2007, 07:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

The cracks actually started in late December with allegations that one of the PC based software players exposed the AACS keys. HD DVD was first unprotected but the approach used would work for Blu-ray also. As it was. Alert studios should have been able to plan in late December/early January for their reactions to the AACS protection breakdown. It appears that some of them at least, did react quickly.


I read much of the story on BroadbandReports:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17552047

"Sat Dec 30, 2:25 AM ET


The movie industry may rue the day it challenged hackers to break its
new encryption system for high-def DVDs, claiming it was bulletproof.
The day after Christmas, a hacker known only as Muslix64 posted a hack
to a Doom 9 forum that appears to shoot holes in their claim.
The hack consists of a program, BackupHDDVD, and a set of encryption
keys that would allow users to decrypt, and thus copy, high-definition
movies protected by the Advanced Access Content System (AACS), such as
Full Metal Jacket, The Last Samurai, and The Fugitive."

And this thread:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17535026

and this:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,17645435


It's looking like quite a wrinkle and perhaps it will take a few weeks to sort it out.
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post #214 of 279 Old 03-22-2007, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Sisko197 View Post

Certainly everything up to that point suggested WB was ready to release The Matrix. By itself.

Isn't it just as likely that WB waited for the other two Matrix movies along with the Animatrix to be encoded and the extras to be set up for the HD DVD release of the trilogy rather than just give us the first movie? Isn't that even more likely a scenario than blaming Blu-ray for everything as you did across two threads in two forums?

Now that is a title everyone is waiting for. It seems that the Universal HD DVD interactive features will be much more interesting.

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post #215 of 279 Old 03-22-2007, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Sisko197 View Post

Certainly everything up to that point suggested WB was ready to release The Matrix. By itself.

Isn't it just as likely that WB waited for the other two Matrix movies along with the Animatrix to be encoded and the extras to be set up for the HD DVD release of the trilogy rather than just give us the first movie? Isn't that even more likely a scenario than blaming Blu-ray for everything as you did across two threads in two forums?

There are many BD-J enabled titles but certain features, most notably PiP do not work as advertised. To overcome this LG on The Decent created two different encodes (probably using seamless branching on parts that don't require the little scene) one with the action in the mini screen as part of the main picture. This is wasteful and there has been talk that Main picture when using the PiP feature is bit starved. Warner refuses to use this tactic.
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post #216 of 279 Old 03-22-2007, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by RockStrongo View Post

I do wonder if the date was to steal some thunder from POTC releases.

Very odd that they picked this date. Isnt it?

I think it might have more to do with Father's Day based on what I've seen from Warner about advertising it for that holiday. I get the impression they really wanted to push it as a gift for that day (or a gift by fathers to themselves). Sounds like there will be a lot of advertising around that.

--Darin

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post #217 of 279 Old 03-23-2007, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Topweasel View Post

I think RDjam was on to something and I think this huge title and the date it is going to be released on lend credence to RDjams theory.

Nonsense.

I found the French site that said Matrix was going to be released on HD DVD only and with IME in the first half of the year: http://www.dvdrama.com/news.php?18624

I posted the news on this forum: https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=796589

Then I opened a thread on the Blu-ray software forum discussing the possibility that BD-J was holding back Warner titles: https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=796592

rdjam totally caught the wrong end of the stick and read into that that "BD-J delays were causing HD DVD releases to be held back", opened this thread and started up one of his little campaigns.

The end result - Matrix is going to be released on HD DVD only and with IME in the first half of the year. As I posted last January. As was the plan all along.

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post #218 of 279 Old 03-23-2007, 11:15 AM
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Until it's released on Blu-ray, which will likely happen at whatever point Warner is comfortable it can be released with full support for secondary video (to enable similar PiP features as found on the HD DVD version).

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post #219 of 279 Old 03-23-2007, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

Of course.

And if you manage to walk from the kitchen to the bedroom without stepping on the lines between the tiles, the monsters won't come out from under your bed at night to kill your mom.


In another thread, an email from Bill Hunt states that this was a VERY difficult decision for Warner and was VERY hotly debated internally.

This was NOT a no-brainer for Warner, as there were a LOT of conflicting views on the subject.

I am very sure that if we had NOT made a fuss, it would have made it easy for some in Warner to decide to hold the Matrix back until the Bluray version was ready.

As it stands, our voices and feedback were taken very seriously by Warner and they responded in the best possible faith...

You may disagree all you like, and ridicule the opposing viewpoint, but it is very obvious that Warner wrestled with this decision.

I intend to reward them for being brave enough to do the right thing.

And they DID indeed do the right thing, here.

The REAL question is: How many OTHER studios (such as Paramount, for example) are holding back HD DVD releases because of their problems with BDJ development?

Maybe it's time we gave them a little nudge also??.......
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post #220 of 279 Old 03-23-2007, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Until it's released on Blu-ray, which will likely happen at whatever point Warner is comfortable it can be released with full support for secondary video (to enable similar PiP features as found on the HD DVD version).

Well, it appears that Bluray has MOVED it's "mandatory" deadline for all Bluray Players to have to be compliant with BDJ 1.1 or BDJ 2.0, from June 1st to October 31 - which means effectively NOVEMBER).

So, then, I guess it'll be a lot easier for studios to say "to heck with it" and start rolling out their HD DVD releases before the Bluray versions.

It's now going to be another SEVEN (7) months before Bluray players will have to comply with BD Video 1.1 or BD Live 2.0 - which means a lot more people are going to end up wih obsolete players during 2007.

See http://www.videobusiness.com/index.a...leid=CA6427147

and the discussion here https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10112311
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post #221 of 279 Old 03-23-2007, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

So, then, I guess it'll be a lot easier for studios to say "to heck with it" and start rolling out their HD DVD releases before the Bluray versions.

What studios? Have Paramount or the Weinsteins even done any HD DVD releases with PiP?

--Darin

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post #222 of 279 Old 03-23-2007, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

What studios? Have Paramount or the Weinsteins even done any HD DVD releases with PiP?

--Darin

I thought the meaning of my statement was pretty clear.

I would think that it is quite possible that other studios may be holding back HD DVD releases due to the Bluray versions not being ready yet.

BDJ is not only used for PiP, as I'm sure you realize.
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post #223 of 279 Old 03-23-2007, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

BDJ is not only used for PiP, as I'm sure you realize.

Yep. BD-J is used on multiple Blu-ray discs. For instance, the video game on the "Chicken Little" disc. What BD-J features do you think are holding these back, other than PiP? Looks like PiP is probably the big one to me.

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post #224 of 279 Old 03-23-2007, 10:37 PM
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I read it was authoring tools that were holding BDJ back.

Disney must be really working hard for their titles to include interactive features. So far they are the only studio backing Blu-ray that offers it in their titles (corect me if I'm wrong). Incidentally, they co-developed IME for HD-DVD with Microsoft. Perhaps the interactive features on both formats are very similar which helped Disney along with BDJ.

-David
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post #225 of 279 Old 03-24-2007, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Nox View Post

I read it was authoring tools that were holding BDJ back.

Disney must be really working hard for their titles to include interactive features. So far they are the only studio backing Blu-ray that offers it in their titles (corect me if I'm wrong). Incidentally, they co-developed IME for HD-DVD with Microsoft. Perhaps the interactive features on both formats are very similar which helped Disney along with BDJ.

Not IME (that is just nickname for the Picture in picture stuff like U-Control) but iHD which became HDi.
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post #226 of 279 Old 03-24-2007, 01:14 PM
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So Talkstr8t how do you feel about Bable and The departed these were two bare bones HD DVD disks. I was very disapointed. This is the next gen isn't it?

Blu ray is the best Blah, blah, blah.
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post #227 of 279 Old 03-24-2007, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Sisko197 View Post

By the way, BD-J may or may not be ready, but isn't it in Chicken Little?

Yeah, and most of the Blu-Ray players on the market right now can't play it. Even the ones that cost $1500. So what good is it?

XA1 + PS3 = HD bliss
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post #228 of 279 Old 03-24-2007, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

How many OTHER studios (such as Paramount, for example) are holding back HD DVD releases because of their problems with BDJ development?

How many other studios are there supporting both formats who have use secondary video? Not many.
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BDJ is not only used for PiP, as I'm sure you realize.

The only two significant features missing from BD-Video 1.0 are secondary video and network support. No released title for either format has included network features, which leaves secondary video as the only IME feature which would be difficult to implement on 1.0 Blu-ray players.

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post #229 of 279 Old 03-24-2007, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Nox View Post

I read it was authoring tools that were holding BDJ back.

Authoring BD-J content today generally requires writing Java code, which limits certain development activities to programmers. Other tools are rapidly emerging which support authoring BD-J content using non-programmer tools, both from mainstream vendors like Sonic as well as newcomers like Ensequence.
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Disney must be really working hard for their titles to include interactive features. So far they are the only studio backing Blu-ray that offers it in their titles (corect me if I'm wrong).

Disney, Fox, Sony, and Lions Gate have all released BD-J titles, with the percentage of released and upcoming titles rapidly increasing. Only the neutral studios haven't released BD-J titles yet.
Quote:


Incidentally, they co-developed IME for HD-DVD with Microsoft.

Based on what I've been told, Disney's direct participation in the development of iHD was very, very limited. Their name was important to Microsoft's credibility in proposing a brand new platform specification, but their technical contribution was minimal.

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post #230 of 279 Old 03-24-2007, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Rusty James View Post

Yeah, and most of the Blu-Ray players on the market right now can't play it. Even the ones that cost $1500. So what good is it?

The vast majority of Blu-ray owners use a PS3, for which performance is stellar. Sony and Pioneer both have firmware updates significantly improving BD-J performance for their standalone players, and it's not expected to be an issue for any forthcoming units (i.e. the 2G Samsung). The Toshiba players didn't support a fair amount of HDi content until their third or fourth firmware release; this issue is not limited to Blu-ray.

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post #231 of 279 Old 03-25-2007, 12:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

How many other studios are there supporting both formats who have use secondary video? Not many.
The only two significant features missing from BD-Video 1.0 are secondary video and network support. No released title for either format has included network features, which leaves secondary video as the only IME feature which would be difficult to implement on 1.0 Blu-ray players.

Does anyone else find it far from encouraging when the fella from Sun spends so much time poo-pooing the advanced features of these new formats and trying to convince us that they are not important?

Hmmm... that new November date for BDJ 1.1/2.0 must be looking real solid then, huh?
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post #232 of 279 Old 03-25-2007, 12:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

The vast majority of Blu-ray owners use a PS3, for which performance is stellar. Sony and Pioneer both have firmware updates significantly improving BD-J performance for their standalone players, and it's not expected to be an issue for any forthcoming units (i.e. the 2G Samsung). The Toshiba players didn't support a fair amount of HDi content until their third or fourth firmware release; this issue is not limited to Blu-ray.

The Toshiba firmware updates merely refined the IME compatibiliy that the players already HAD. In contrast, no amount of firmware updates will EVER make the 1st gen suddenly able to meet specifications they were never designed for.

They are two entirely different issues.
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post #233 of 279 Old 03-25-2007, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Does anyone else find it far from encouraging when the fella from Sun spends so much time poo-pooing the advanced features of these new formats and trying to convince us that they are not important?

Hmmm... that new November date for BDJ 1.1/2.0 must be looking real solid then, huh?

What role does Sun have in the development of BD-J implementation for Blu-ray? If they are involved, what is their responsibility with regard to this further delay? Does anyone know or care to say?
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post #234 of 279 Old 03-25-2007, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Based on what I've been told, Disney's direct participation in the development of iHD was very, very limited. Their name was important to Microsoft's credibility in proposing a brand new platform specification, but their technical contribution was minimal.

Not the first time Talk and Amir have described the same set of facts in very different terms.

Here's what Amir had to say on the insider's thread:

Quote:


Finally, note that we designed HDi with Disney. We used their prototypes, and implemented them fully in HDi before they decided to sign on. And despite being in BD camp, Disney has been part of the entire process and contributed significantly to creation of HD DVD interactivity in DVD Forum. So of all studios, I know for sure they are happy with what HDi can do for them. And mandatory features of HDi are the things they wanted, but did not get in BD format. So all in all, they would be the wrong example to use here to make a counter point .

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post #235 of 279 Old 03-25-2007, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Django View Post

Absolutely. I read all of the attacks against him, and I did not get involved because I thought he was only speculating. But now? He's da man.

I sent an email to Warner encouraging it to release on HD DVD when ready as well. I'll take some of that credit, thank you very much.

Seriously, I don't know how much consumer input actually counts with the studios, but I suspect it does count for something and is worth the effort. THe good news is that the BD guys and some BD insiders are spending lots of time over here which is a pretty good "barometer" as to HD DVD's health.

Cheers,

Grant
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post #236 of 279 Old 03-25-2007, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by webphilosopher View Post

What role does Sun have in the development of BD-J implementation for Blu-ray? If they are involved, what is their responsibility with regard to this further delay? Does anyone know or care to say?

I think you'll be very lucky to get talksr8t to make any definitive statement on that.

When Grubert (and later myself also) started the threads on the BDJ issues, I repeatedly asked him to comment, but he proved allergic.

Sun is very involved, and is so important to the format that they have been admitted to the BDA board in August. In their announcement, covered here, Sony/BDA was quoted: "...said Victor Matsuda, Vice/President/Chair, Blu-ray Disc Association's Global Promotion Committee, Sony Corporation of America. 'Sun has already played a key role in the powerful new interactive features that set Blu-ray apart, and we look forward to working with them as we bring this revolutionary new disc format to consumers.'..."

It clearly hasn't gone well, apparently since the various BD player platforms differ quite a lot, and there have been limited tools for production of BDJ interactive features on the BD Releases, forcing studios to code by hand.
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post #237 of 279 Old 03-25-2007, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I sent an email to Warner encouraging it to release on HD DVD when ready as well. I'll take some of that credit, thank you very much.

Seriously, I don't know how much consumer input actually counts with the studios, but I suspect it does count for something and is worth the effort. THe good news is that the BD guys and some BD insiders are spending lots of time over here which is a pretty good "barometer" as to HD DVD's health.

Cheers,

Grant

At the end of the day all I did was stand up and point a direction. It's people like yourself and Django that did the heavy lifting by taking action. Without you all taking action, we would have gotten nowhere. I have been quietly informed that our outcry was a factor in their decision - so well done all.

Several hundred messages were sent - yet many more folks than that didn't take the time, perhaps because they felt it would not have an effect. I hope that the next time, these quiet supporters will also become active - since in the next 60 days, this will be very critical.

Stay tuned....

I'm happy to share just a fraction of the credit along with all of you. I have enjoyed it too!
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post #238 of 279 Old 03-25-2007, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by wittangamo View Post

Not the first time Talk and Amir have described the same set of facts in very different terms.

Here's what Amir had to say on the insider's thread:

That IS interesting. It's kinda like two people witnessing the same car accident yet making completely different police statements.

-David
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post #239 of 279 Old 03-25-2007, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

The vast majority of Blu-ray owners use a PS3, for which performance is stellar. Sony and Pioneer both have firmware updates significantly improving BD-J performance for their standalone players, and it's not expected to be an issue for any forthcoming units (i.e. the 2G Samsung). The Toshiba players didn't support a fair amount of HDi content until their third or fourth firmware release; this issue is not limited to Blu-ray.

The idea that the PS3 will carry the day for Blu-Ray is specious at best. I hate to rain on your parade but the PS3 is seen as a game console and NOT an HD content player. The lack of PS3 uptake is clearly attributable to lack of games, not lack of Blu-Ray discs. The blu-ray momentum it has provided is false for 2 reasons. First there are no games out, forcing current PS3 users to justify a 600 dollar investment in a 12 lb paper weight. Second, early adopters of HD media know it's the only blu-ray player to buy, leaving blu-ray hardware partners in the lurch. No matter what features the PS3 has there will ALWAYS be the idea it's just a game console. It would appear Sony's target market for blu-ray discs is the bacheler Sony fanboy who has an HDTV and doesnt have to contend with a wife or kids to watch tv, play games or watch a movie. My guess is, that's a small market, but congrats, it's all yours.

See my posts on the Fox Disney thread about the weakness of the PS3 as the blu-ray capital ship argument.

As pointed out in subsequent posts, firmware cant fix a device that doesnt have the hardware to support a feature. Why would anyone buy a blu-ray player at this point in time if it's not a PS3? There's absolutely no guarantee it will work with 1.1. What about the software that's already out? Will it be forwards compatible? Can you categorically state that any blu-ray disc currently out, will work with all features on any player?
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post #240 of 279 Old 03-26-2007, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webphilosopher View Post

What role does Sun have in the development of BD-J implementation for Blu-ray? If they are involved, what is their responsibility with regard to this further delay? Does anyone know or care to say?

The pushback of mandatory BD-Video 1.1 support for newly-released models from June to October has nothing to do with BD-J; it's related to supporting the new hardware features (i.e. secondary video). Secondary video can be accessed from either BD-J or HDMV. Since the date change isn't a BD-J issue, there is no reason to suggest Sun is somehow responsible for the change.

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