Audiophile CD Player? Which One? - Page 30 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #871 of 943 Old 01-25-2015, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by jdjaye View Post
Respectfully, I do not agree. But I won't try to change your opinion.

For the sake of any beginners:
I agree that different rooms have Individuals have individual tastes for different sound qualities, and different rooms sound differently. Which makes it frustrating to recreate the same sound at a different location. However, If near-reproduction of the original source material is the objective, then DAC technology does make a difference. DAC technology, which is a combination of hardware and software, has made significant strides in the last 5-10 years.

I'd expect that multichannel calibration tech has evolved similarly, but I don't really gave any experience in the area, so that would just be and educated guest.

For the beginners- if you can, try things before you buy them.
It's your time and money, so get what works best for you.

For the more experienced- if you disagree substantively with anything I have said, then please start a new thread. The purpose here is to help a beginner who asked a legitimate question, rather that confuse them with audio arcana, of which there is a surfeit.

Mine is not an opinion. It is a description of test results. Over the years I have never been able to have anyone successfully tell one DAC from another in a bias controlled listening test. I'm willing to bet serious money that you can't either. The amplifiers in modern AV receivers have specifications well below the level of audibility.


What all that means is that AVR amplifiers and DACs do not alter the music audibly so the two receivers will sound the same except for the effects of room calibration. So what you heard is either a difference in the room calibration software's approach to your room or hearing bias. There isn't any other option. Not an opinion. Test results.


I'm not suggesting you didn't hear a difference. I'm just correcting your statement about the causes of that difference. Beginners read tons of nonsense about the audible characteristics of DACs when those characteristics simply don't exist. It's good for the industry but I think people should know the truth before parting with their money. In your case, I suggest you stay with the receiver that produces a calibrated sound to your liking.
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post #872 of 943 Old 01-25-2015, 10:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
Mine is not an opinion. It is a description of test results. Over the years I have never been able to have anyone successfully tell one DAC from another in a bias controlled listening test.

Over the years, you have never been able to have anyone successfully tell one DAC from another? What exactly does that mean? Were you experimenting on people, or was that just lazy sentence structure? At any rate, please list several of the DACs that you were working with in these experiments.

Also, I notice that you share your personal experience, and then seem to infer that the matter is settled, based on your singular observation. That's making a massive assumption there, not a good idea.
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post #873 of 943 Old 01-25-2015, 12:11 PM
 
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Get the same DVD brand as the TV so the remotes will work both - just a convenience factor.

I'm partial to the Marantz AVR warm sound- and how their Internal DACs sound- I think they sound better than the pioneers - but it is easy to figure out your own preference by going to best buy magnolia and listening for yourself their.

The AJ pioneer speakers are great sound for the buck - I own a pair. The question is if you are looking to optimize a 2 channel audio payback systems, or a multichannel AudioVideo system. With the object in mind, spend your $ in a way that aligns with the objective.

I'm a 2 channel guy- tv and dvd is nice, but the music is essential to me- so my recommendations are biased towards 2 channel musical optimization.

On my system, I think the Marantz AVR DAC sounds better than the
Sony DVD DAC .

Fyi- my last Sony receiver died after only 2 years, so I can't recommend Sony Audio gear anymore.

nB- These are my own views based on my experiences spending my own money.
Last Marantz I had was 40 years ago, it was a nice receiver (the 2285b?) but that was before DACs were a consideration; I went to separates in my 2ch system after selling the Marantz. Don't know about the whole brand's lineup having a particular signature, haven't heard them much in the meantime but didn't base my purchase on as much as specs that IIRC (who knows, I read Stereo Review and High Fidelity all the time....did Marantz have that reputation back then?). I haven't gone receiver "listening" and Magnolia probably wouldn't be much of an option

Does Marantz use only DACs with a particular sonic signature? Just the DAC and the rest of the dsp doesn't matter?

You never use dsp other than the dac chip and make equipment decisions based on some "pure" or "direct" pass through?
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post #874 of 943 Old 01-25-2015, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Over the years, you have never been able to have anyone successfully tell one DAC from another? What exactly does that mean? Were you experimenting on people, or was that just lazy sentence structure? At any rate, please list several of the DACs that you were working with in these experiments.

Also, I notice that you share your personal experience, and then seem to infer that the matter is settled, based on your singular observation. That's making a massive assumption there, not a good idea.
Correct. These tests involved a group of 10 people and around a dozen DACs. The most extreme example was a comparison between a Radio Shack portable CD player and an Audio Research CD player. No audible difference.


No, it isn't hard to swap them. The reason A/B tests don't show an audible difference is that there is no audible difference. The differences you heard originated from hearing bias and not from the equipment.


I write with confidence because I have actually done many, many bias controlled tests. You haven't done a single one so questioning my confidence seems a bit silly to me. Come back after you have some experience with bias controlled comparisons and then we can compare ideas.
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post #875 of 943 Old 01-25-2015, 03:46 PM
 
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FMW, what is your main CD player or digital music server @ this moment in time?
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post #876 of 943 Old 01-25-2015, 03:58 PM
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FMW, what is your main CD player or digital music server @ this moment in time?

A Logitech Squeezbox streaming from a hard drive on my local area network. All of my CD's are ripped to that drive. Why do you ask?
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post #877 of 943 Old 01-25-2015, 04:10 PM
 
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A Logitech Squeezbox streaming from a hard drive on my local area network. All of my CD's are ripped to that drive. Why do you ask?
I was very curious to know from someone who performed many blind listening tests of DACs before.
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post #878 of 943 Old 01-25-2015, 04:10 PM
 
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People still play CD's directly these days outside of a car ? ....... I just rip them to a hdd with a PC ODD or buy downloads and play or stream from hdd's and occasionally a PDP.

I've had a Sony ES SACD/CD player for good while I bought it in ~ 2002 but I don't use it much anymore it sounds good though IMO much better than all the other players I've owned .OTOH hdd can sound as good depending what it's playing to ofc ex, a pro interface and phones or a decent amp and speakers or discrete 192kHz sound card with a decent dac and op amps into a headphone amp then phones , play hdd into something not so good like an inexpensive AVR and that's how it will sound .

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post #879 of 943 Old 01-25-2015, 05:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
Correct. These tests involved a group of 10 people and around a dozen DACs. The most extreme example was a comparison between a Radio Shack portable CD player and an Audio Research CD player. No audible difference.


No, it isn't hard to swap them. The reason A/B tests don't show an audible difference is that there is no audible difference. The differences you heard originated from hearing bias and not from the equipment.


I write with confidence because I have actually done many, many bias controlled tests. You haven't done a single one so questioning my confidence seems a bit silly to me. Come back after you have some experience with bias controlled comparisons and then we can compare ideas.
Sorry, what? You say you tested with one group of 10 people? It seems you don't remember the brand and model of these DACs. Were these standalone DACs? Or are you talking about some kind of variety of DACs in receivers and cd players, etc? I don't recall Radio Shack making a standalone DAC.

Is one group of ten people enough to extrapolate from? Aren't you being a little arrogant there? Tell me about these many, many bias controlled tests. Were they all on yourself save for this one group of ten?
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post #880 of 943 Old 01-25-2015, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jdjaye View Post
...

I'm partial to the Marantz AVR warm sound-

....
Any AVR can be be altered with tone controls to sound warm.
I am sure the specs on that Marantz shows a flat FR, hence not warm with tone controls off.

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Originally Posted by jdjaye View Post
...

For the more experienced- if you disagree substantively with anything I have said, then please start a new thread. ..
Why do we need to do this? That would be disjointed response and to show to the new people where you are wrong.
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post #881 of 943 Old 01-25-2015, 08:12 PM
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Rather, the purpose is to spare the newbies the blather of people with the need to have the last word on something fairly subjective.
However, if that is what makes you feel self important...
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post #882 of 943 Old 01-26-2015, 01:59 AM
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Sorry, what? You say you tested with one group of 10 people? It seems you don't remember the brand and model of these DACs. Were these standalone DACs? Or are you talking about some kind of variety of DACs in receivers and cd players, etc? I don't recall Radio Shack making a standalone DAC.

Is one group of ten people enough to extrapolate from? Aren't you being a little arrogant there? Tell me about these many, many bias controlled tests. Were they all on yourself save for this one group of ten?

No problem. As soon as you complete some bias controlled tests, we'll get together and compare notes.
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post #883 of 943 Old 01-26-2015, 10:32 AM
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Rather, the purpose is to spare the newbies the blather of people with the need to have the last word on something fairly subjective.
However, if that is what makes you feel self important...
The more you understand electrical engineering, the more you realize that it's not nearly as subjective as the magazine reviews would like you to believe.
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post #884 of 943 Old 01-26-2015, 12:27 PM
 
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Rather, the purpose is to spare the newbies the blather of people with the need to have the last word on something fairly subjective.
However, if that is what makes you feel self important...
Look into the mirror to see who the newbie is. Read a lot of magazine reviews? Oddiophool sites where you congratulate each other on your consumer prowess? Tell us more about your cables that you seem to think have some special worth because you got charged 10x their value....LOL!
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post #885 of 943 Old 01-26-2015, 07:16 PM
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People still play CD's directly these days outside of a car ? .......

.
I do, all of the time at home.
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post #886 of 943 Old 01-26-2015, 07:26 PM
 
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No problem. As soon as you complete some bias controlled tests, we'll get together and compare notes.
Ah, I see. You don't want it known what DACs/models you were testing with, you're just hoping to float this grand experiment you did with a sample size of ten. But that's much too small to get any reliable results, and no research lab would dare publish any study with a sample size of ten. Good to see where you're coming from though.
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post #887 of 943 Old 01-26-2015, 07:32 PM
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Yup. I listen to physical CD at home. There is a CD player in every room. With 3,000+ CDs in my collection, it will be a waste if I don't use my CD.
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post #888 of 943 Old 01-26-2015, 08:02 PM
 
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I do, all of the time at home.
I did for years......... until HDD prices came way down and ip bandwidth went way up .☺☺
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post #889 of 943 Old 01-26-2015, 08:12 PM
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I did for years......... until HDD prices came way down and ip bandwidth went way up .☺☺
Yep, ripped all my ~1K CD's to lossless so I can listen in any room in my apt. Works real good.
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Yup. I listen to physical CD at home. There is a CD player in every room. With 3,000+ CDs in my collection, it will be a waste if I don't use my CD.
I too have a large music collection on CDs, and a CD player in every room. ...I'm still like a kid from yesterday.

________

♦ As to which audiophile CD player; there are so many out there that it don't truly matter. ...And they come @ all price points for all type of people.
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post #891 of 943 Old 01-27-2015, 05:52 AM
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Ah, I see. You don't want it known what DACs/models you were testing with, you're just hoping to float this grand experiment you did with a sample size of ten. But that's much too small to get any reliable results, and no research lab would dare publish any study with a sample size of ten. Good to see where you're coming from though.

I'm not trying to float anything. I am glad to see that you are expert in the tests we did. I'm just posting on an internet forum and dealing with argumentative people. I already told you about a comparison between an inexpensive and an expensive DAC named by brand. You must have missed it. You are arguing for the sake of arguing. If you want more details, get some experience yourself. It hurts me to see you arguing from a position of ignorance.
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post #892 of 943 Old 02-04-2015, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by esh516

Just buy a oppo 105
A straightwire super hdmi cable
pangae isolation feet
And two moon rocks to place on top of each front speaker.
Listen ...enjoy..and lets call this back and forth bickering..done!
The oppo offers the best of all worlds..at least in this solar system.
audio/ video is top notch!
Can not get much better for the $
The above post is just my own personal opinion
and in no way should be taken any other way®


Unless if I am mistaken, what's the need for a 105 versus a 103 if you're using HDMI?

And what the hell is it about moon rocks and isolation feet? lol
none
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post #893 of 943 Old 02-04-2015, 02:20 PM
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Correct. These tests involved a group of 10 people and around a dozen DACs. The most extreme example was a comparison between a Radio Shack portable CD player and an Audio Research CD player. No audible difference.

Not everyone who buys an Audio Research CD player is a dumbbell. If one has an Audio Research preamplifier and a very good power amplifier, with speakers, which retail over 20 grand, you can be sure you will hear a difference.
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post #894 of 943 Old 02-05-2015, 06:28 AM
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Not everyone who buys an Audio Research CD player is a dumbbell. If one has an Audio Research preamplifier and a very good power amplifier, with speakers, which retail over 20 grand, you can be sure you will hear a difference.

Interesting that you mention it because the system was powered by an Audio Research amp and preamp. I didn't call anyone a dumbbell. The system was mine. Price, by the way, is not a reliable indicator of performance.
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post #895 of 943 Old 02-15-2015, 04:08 AM
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About twenty years ago a man from Russ Andrews sold me an Arcam Alpha 9 amp and cd player with some nice Kimber cables for just under 1200 pounds. Anyway i was quite excited to get home and plug it all in. My excitement lasted barely one tune before i realised that amps and cd players make no difference to the sound. I was listening with a nice big pair of JBL speakers (which i still use today)and there wasn't the slightest difference in the sound between the new stuff and my Nad 3020 amp and sony technics cd player. I felt stupid. How could i have not realised that am amp is an amp and a cd player is a cd player. It was a harsh lesson. Recently i sold both the amp and cd player to someone on Gumtree who didn't know that amps are amps etc and recovered 500 quid of the money. So i bought a new Nad amp and a Marantz cd5005. The sound didn't change but i now have new equipment that should last another twenty years anyway.
The reason i'm saying this is my mate keeps telling me his new Nad cd player is better than the Marantz cd player i just purchased and i was feeling maybe i should have bought the Nad cd player to go with the Nad amp i had recently bought so i googled 'are all cd players the same' and came across this site. I thought for a second maybe things had changed in the cd world but no it's still the same. So i'd like to thank those posters who keep explaining to those who won't listen that it all sounds the same. It's been a hilarious read, what with the delusion on show from those who can hear differences.
For anyone like me reading throughout this stuff with a mind to buying new gear it can't be any clearer that those who hear differences are dreaming so do yourself a favour buy a well made amp and cd player for not much cash and spend a decent amount on speakers. I can recommend a pair of JBL studio series S38 as being the best speakers i know of for listening to and making music with. I've made hundreds of recordings and mixes on these speakers and i couldn't be happier with the results.
Great site, good advice and many laughs at the subjectivists posts.
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About twenty years ago a man from Russ Andrews sold me an Arcam Alpha 9 amp and cd player with some nice Kimber cables for just under 1200 pounds. Anyway i was quite excited to get home and plug it all in. My excitement lasted barely one tune before i realised that amps and cd players make no difference to the sound. I was listening with a nice big pair of JBL speakers (which i still use today)and there wasn't the slightest difference in the sound between the new stuff and my Nad 3020 amp and sony technics cd player. I felt stupid. How could i have not realised that am amp is an amp and a cd player is a cd player. It was a harsh lesson. Recently i sold both the amp and cd player to someone on Gumtree who didn't know that amps are amps etc and recovered 500 quid of the money. So i bought a new Nad amp and a Marantz cd5005. The sound didn't change but i now have new equipment that should last another twenty years anyway.
The reason i'm saying this is my mate keeps telling me his new Nad cd player is better than the Marantz cd player i just purchased and i was feeling maybe i should have bought the Nad cd player to go with the Nad amp i had recently bought so i googled 'are all cd players the same' and came across this site. I thought for a second maybe things had changed in the cd world but no it's still the same. So i'd like to thank those posters who keep explaining to those who won't listen that it all sounds the same. It's been a hilarious read, what with the delusion on show from those who can hear differences.
For anyone like me reading throughout this stuff with a mind to buying new gear it can't be any clearer that those who hear differences are dreaming so do yourself a favour buy a well made amp and cd player for not much cash and spend a decent amount on speakers. I can recommend a pair of JBL studio series S38 as being the best speakers i know of for listening to and making music with. I've made hundreds of recordings and mixes on these speakers and i couldn't be happier with the results.
Great site, good advice and many laughs at the subjectivists posts.
I had a Rega CD player. Sounded superb and far different and better than mates budget Sony CDP, he borrowed it for a while as well
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post #897 of 943 Old 02-15-2015, 04:57 AM
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I had a Rega CD player. Sounded superb and far different and better than mates budget Sony CDP, he borrowed it for a while as well
It didn't because it can't. Unless...... it's magic.
I was using a Walmart 20 quid dvd player when i didn't have my new cd player. When i plugged in my Marantz it didn't sound different in anyway. I've been listening to a cd by a band that's recently finished their album in our studio for months now and know it backwards and playing it on the new player didn't make the slightest difference. How annoyed would you be if you'd just spent 20 grand making an album knowing that people with different cd players would hear it different than you made it? Nah the player don't matter or you'd see information on the cd saying something like "this recording was done to sound it's best when played on a Marantz cd5005, playing this disc on any other player will result in you losing some of the sonics of this recording, never mind the loss of quality you will suffer if you buy this recording from iTunes ". I download the finished album from iTunes last week when it came out and listened to it in the studio and it's impossible to hear any difference between the iTunes download, the master or the cd.
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post #898 of 943 Old 02-15-2015, 05:21 AM
 
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I compared analogue out from the low end DVD player to the Rega. No contest

Either you're deaf or have crap speakers. or both.

Then again since you can't hear the difference between lossy mp3 and CD that confirms it.
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post #899 of 943 Old 02-15-2015, 09:06 AM
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Hey, if it is true that's everything sounds the same, I should just buy some China made power amplifier on eBay at $100 instead of the internet craze brand Emotiva at $500, buy a $59 BD player instead of Oppo 105D at $1,100.

It is NOT about price justification. I can hear the difference in sound quality between a $20 wally world DVD player, vs $100 Sony BD player, vs Oppo 103D vs Oppo 105D and MBL at $10K. I ended up with the 103D because that's all I'm willing to spend. But going back to the sound quality difference? They are clearly there even listening through my low end system of merely Pioneer SC-85 receiver and Elite Atmos Andrew Jones speakers.
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post #900 of 943 Old 02-15-2015, 09:20 AM
FMW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
It is NOT about price justification. I can hear the difference in sound quality between a $20 wally world DVD player, vs $100 Sony BD player, vs Oppo 103D vs Oppo 105D and MBL at $10K. .

Not in a bias controlled comparison. Want to bet?
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Oppo Bdp 95 Blu Ray Player , Samsung Bd D5100 Blu Ray Disc Player

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