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post #31 of 77 Old 05-16-2015, 11:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by nvidio View Post
Looks can be very deceiving you know.
You just affirmed the importance of DBT.

As for the example of DACs that made audible difference due to power signal, do you know any?
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post #32 of 77 Old 05-16-2015, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by nvidio View Post
First, you accuse audiophiles of defending inaudible characteristics as though they mattered. But where's your proof? Next, you accuse me of having no experience regarding bias controlled listening tests. Again, where's your proof? Is it in your imagination? If you think it's good behavior to accuse people without backing up your accusations, then certainly you won't object to my accusing you of being the obvious troll that you are.

My, my. Looks like the attitude problem is at your end.
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post #33 of 77 Old 05-16-2015, 01:25 PM
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Concern for what, audible traits? Do you have any example of DACs that made audible difference due to power signal?
Sometimes audible, sometimes not or maybe not, but if there's a potential risk of it being audible or being sometimes audible then this potential risk must not necessarily always be completely ignored. That is, despite the fact you won't hear me deny that there will always be people who feel like they might get luckier than most... Part of the document linked below discusses one example of how dirty power signals can audibly degrade performance in DAC chips.
http://www.esstech.com/PDF/Applicati...PCB_Layout.pdf


So if you keep adding more and more dirt to the power signal, eventually you will reach a point where it becomes audible. Exactly how much dirt can be added before it becomes audible? Who knows. It depends. You could design and conduct double-blind listening tests to try and find out specifically how much, but doing that is one heck of a lot easier said than done.
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post #34 of 77 Old 05-16-2015, 01:30 PM
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My, my. Looks like the attitude problem is at your end.
Ah ah ah ah ah ah ahahahah.. ah.. OK.. I'm still laughing..
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post #35 of 77 Old 05-16-2015, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by spkr View Post
You just affirmed the importance of DBT.
I never said DBT was unimportant. People who draw all sorts of ridiculous conclusions from the results of DBT are people who overestimate self-importance.
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As for the example of DACs that made audible difference due to power signal, do you know any?
See my previous reply to you.
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post #36 of 77 Old 05-16-2015, 03:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nvidio View Post
Sometimes audible, sometimes not or maybe not, but if there's a potential risk of it being audible or being sometimes audible then this potential risk must not necessarily always be completely ignored. That is, despite the fact you won't hear me deny that there will always be people who feel like they might get luckier than most... Part of the document linked below discusses one example of how dirty power signals can audibly degrade performance in DAC chips.
http://www.esstech.com/PDF/Applicati...PCB_Layout.pdf


So if you keep adding more and more dirt to the power signal, eventually you will reach a point where it becomes audible. Exactly how much dirt can be added before it becomes audible? Who knows. It depends. You could design and conduct double-blind listening tests to try and find out specifically how much, but doing that is one heck of a lot easier said than done.
Just like you said as quoted below.
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But where's your proof?
Again, where's your proof? Is it in your imagination?
Of course, you don't know of any. Here you are, after saying "Personally, I, try the best I can to not blindly be obsessed with the technical design of an audio product and the marketing that surrounds it.", you blindly believe the sales pitch put out by DAC manufacturer.
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post #37 of 77 Old 05-16-2015, 04:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nvidio View Post
People who draw all sorts of ridiculous conclusions from the results of DBT are people who overestimate self-importance.
What conclusion was drawn from which DBT that made you wan to say that? Can you show specific example that you are referring to?
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See my previous reply to you.
You mean your non-answer? What a waste of time that would be.
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post #38 of 77 Old 05-16-2015, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by nvidio View Post
This is what you wrote in your earlier post:

Where exactly did you mention anything about the analog parts that are inside the DAC chip itself?
I didn't specifically mention "analog parts" inside a DAC chip because I made the poor assumption that you, the reader, already knew that. I mean, how could a digital-to-analog converter work without analog parts inside? The noteworthy part was not that there are analog "parts" inside but that there are digital functions inside. I can't think of any ICs without analog "parts" inside them, so I felt no need to mention it. Surely you know this and are just trying to nitpick.

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Most designers of high end DAC units, including Alex Yeung of Eastern Electric, know that cleanliness of the power signal is a primary concern, and, just because you don't know it, doesn't prove them wrong.
Actually, most designers of any DACs, whether you consider them "high end" or not, know that cleanliness of the power signal is of concern. Primary concern? Maybe, maybe not. Just how critical it is depends on the IC being used and its PSRR, and the design goals of SNR, Dyn Range, etc. With some DAC ICs, clock cleanliness is more critical than power supply cleanliness. But both play a role. And again, Alex Yeung probably knows of the existence of voltage regulators, which are used to provide the power to the actual pins on the DAC. Using dual toroids is entirely unnecessary because of the use of voltage regulators to feed the DAC's voltage.

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post #39 of 77 Old 05-16-2015, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by nvidio View Post
Just because you or a group of people can't hear something under a specific set of circumstances doesn't logically imply that nobody else (under the same or different set of circumstances) can. From the bulk of your posts on this forum, it has become extremely consistently clear that you are generally obsessed with drawing all sorts of ridiculous conclusions from the results of bias controlled tests. Tests, which may have been scientifically correct (so you are granted the benefit of the doubt in this regard!), but the scientifically correct (!) results of which are confused, by you, time after time after time, with scientifically substantiated conclusions drawn from them.


Personally, I, try the best I can to not blindly be obsessed with the technical design of an audio product and the marketing that surrounds it. When judging an audio product, I don't start with a model that says I believe I know how this works so a DAC only needs to be flat from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with distortion below "x". Instead, I start with the reliable fact that says it is possible to build a system that measures well, but isn't satisfactory. This is regardless of whether the type of measurement used is a bias controlled test. Why? It's because it would be outrageous to claim that we know everything there is to know about how the human hearing system works. Because what we do know is that our ears are incredibly sensitive to some types of errors in a signal, but very tolerant of others. So, instead of blindly believing that bias controlled tests are the best way to judge an audio product (blindly, because you are making blind assumptions about how we hear), and, instead of listening to one thing and another thing without knowing what it is I am listening to, I will just quote the famous Dr. James D. "JJ" Johnston:
When did he get his doctorate? And if you're going to quote him as an expert, why do you disagree so strongly with his thoughts on DBT?

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post #40 of 77 Old 05-16-2015, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by spkr View Post
Just like you said as quoted below. Of course, you don't know of any. Here you are, after saying "Personally, I, try the best I can to not blindly be obsessed with the technical design of an audio product and the marketing that surrounds it.", you blindly believe the sales pitch put out by DAC manufacturer.
As a matter of fact, there is plenty of evidence in support of the claim that double-blind tests are difficult to properly design and conduct. Had they been easy, the famous Meyer & Moran study would not have failed so miserably, for example, and then there's the undeniable fact so many "experienced" people not only kept firmly believing in the validity of this particular example, but at the same time also kept equally firmly defending the ridiculous conclusions drawn from it.


As for the "sales pitch" (as you describe it), I never said I blindly believe every single word that's written in the ESS document. It's just a little bit of tech talk, i.e., application notes but I have heard with my own ears how DACs other than the Eastern Electric that also use the ES9018 chip but lack a clean power supply all sound artificial and or harsh. So, must be some truth about it my guess, guessing being the best I can try because I'm pragmatic, unlike people like you who, despite not having been able to even produce an ounce of science in the thread, purport to be objectivists.
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post #41 of 77 Old 05-16-2015, 11:16 PM
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What conclusion was drawn from which DBT that made you wan to say that? Can you show specific example that you are referring to?
See my previous reply to you.
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You mean your non-answer? What a waste of time that would be.
So let me get this straight. You are admitting that designing and conducting a DBT to find out the answer would be a waste of time? LOL!!
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post #42 of 77 Old 05-16-2015, 11:39 PM
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I didn't specifically mention "analog parts" inside a DAC chip because I made the poor assumption that you, the reader, already knew that.
Of course I already knew that. Because, last time I checked, I was the guy who pointed that out to you in the first place.
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I mean, how could a digital-to-analog converter work without analog parts inside? The noteworthy part was not that there are analog "parts" inside but that there are digital functions inside. I can't think of any ICs without analog "parts" inside them, so I felt no need to mention it. Surely you know this and are just trying to nitpick.
No, I am not trying to nitpick. The analog section of the ESS chip requires cleanliness in the 3.3V power signal that feeds it. Says so in the documnet I linked. Again, I can only guess but... shouldn't this be easy for you to verify in a DBT by ultimately putting your money where your mouth is? Or have I just been missing your point again somehow?
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Actually, most designers of any DACs, whether you consider them "high end" or not, know that cleanliness of the power signal is of concern. Primary concern? Maybe, maybe not. Just how critical it is depends on the IC being used and its PSRR, and the design goals of SNR, Dyn Range, etc. With some DAC ICs, clock cleanliness is more critical than power supply cleanliness.
Eureka. And, how exactly was it that you expected to achieve clock cleanliness without also feeding a clean power signal to the clock?
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But both play a role. And again, Alex Yeung probably knows of the existence of voltage regulators, which are used to provide the power to the actual pins on the DAC.
I know. I've read the application notes, remember?
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Using dual toroids is entirely unnecessary because of the use of voltage regulators to feed the DAC's voltage.
Ha!
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post #43 of 77 Old 05-17-2015, 12:00 AM
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When did he get his doctorate?
I have no idea when he did, but he received his BSEE and MSEE from Carnegie-Mellon University.
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And if you're going to quote him as an expert, why do you disagree so strongly with his thoughts on DBT?
Who says I disagree with his thoughts on DBT? In his lecture on the subject of Dynamic Range, he said that relying on only one measurement is wrong. (And he wasn't just referring to Dynamic Range, but to audio quality as a whole). I take this at face value, i.e. by making the logical conclusion that relying on only DBT is wrong. That said, I lied because it wasn't him, but Prof. Keith O. Johnson who said "I like to know what's in it".


Here's the video of Dr. JJ's lecture that I mentioned above.
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post #44 of 77 Old 05-17-2015, 09:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by nvidio View Post
but I have heard with my own ears how DACs other than the Eastern Electric that also use the ES9018 chip but lack a clean power supply all sound artificial and or harsh. So, must be some truth about it my guess, guessing being the best I can try because I'm pragmatic,
But like you said as quoted below.
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But where's your proof?
Again, where's your proof? Is it in your imagination?
"guess"? You mean in your imagination? OK, thanks for clarifying that.
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post #45 of 77 Old 05-17-2015, 09:36 AM
 
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See my previous reply to you.
Your previous replies only show bunch of strawman argument. There has been no specific DBT referred to.
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So let me get this straight. You are admitting that designing and conducting a DBT to find out the answer would be a waste of time? LOL!!
Hmm..., resorting to evasive maneuver. This makes me wonder, do you sell audio electronics?
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post #46 of 77 Old 05-17-2015, 05:41 PM
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But like you said as quoted below.
Yes, but that's simply because if you can make all sorts of claims without backing them up, then so can I.
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"guess"? You mean in your imagination? OK, thanks for clarifying that.
Exactly. I am "guessing" that you have just fallen into your own trap, i.e., if you insist on applying bent logic in your replies, then don't feel surprised when I do the same in mine.
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post #47 of 77 Old 05-17-2015, 05:59 PM
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Your previous replies only show bunch of strawman argument. There has been no specific DBT referred to.
I disagree. The Meyer & Moran study is an extremely clear example of how DBTs can be screwed up VERY extremely far beyond all recognition and still be regarded, by certain individuals who claim to have a lot of "experience", as "proof" of something that is utterly ridiculous to say the least.
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Hmm..., resorting to evasive maneuver. This makes me wonder, do you sell audio electronics?
No, I don't sell anything. I just take your squished ability to reason, and then I squish it beyond toothpaste so you might finally start to understand the reason why DBTs are not the be all end all.
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post #48 of 77 Old 05-17-2015, 07:56 PM
 
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Yes, but that's simply because if you can make all sorts of claims without backing them up, then so can I.
What do you mean if? You don't like responding to reality, do you. You've definitely shown that pattern here.
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Exactly. I am "guessing" that you have just fallen into your own trap, i.e., if you insist on applying bent logic in your replies, then don't feel surprised when I do the same in mine.
I asked you who those "People who draw all sorts of ridiculous conclusions from the results of DBT" and what the specific ridiculous conclusions were. You still haven't answered. That's because those people and those conclusions are the figment of your own imagination.

Try responding to facts for a change.
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post #49 of 77 Old 05-17-2015, 08:02 PM
 
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I disagree. The Meyer & Moran study is an extremely clear example of how DBTs can be screwed up VERY extremely far beyond all recognition and still be regarded, by certain individuals who claim to have a lot of "experience", as "proof" of something that is utterly ridiculous to say the least.

No, I don't sell anything. I just take your squished ability to reason, and then I squish it beyond toothpaste so you might finally start to understand the reason why DBTs are not the be all end all.
Since you've made your respect for Ethan Winer known, as quoted below,
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You don't have to believe this advice... just ask Ethan Winer instead.
you don't have to believe me about DBT, just ask Ethan Winer instead ("Double blind testing is the gold standard for all branches of science, and it's just as necessary when assessing audio equipment."). http://ethanwiner.com/audiophoolery.html
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post #50 of 77 Old 05-17-2015, 09:29 PM
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I have no idea when he did, but he received his BSEE and MSEE from Carnegie-Mellon University.
Correct. But he doesn't have a PhD, so I'm curious why you referred to him as Dr. James....

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post #51 of 77 Old 05-17-2015, 09:32 PM
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What do you mean if?
I mean if my uncle had breasts, he'd be my aunt.
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You don't like responding to reality, do you.
I like responding to reality, but I don't like to endlessly respond to your countless fantasies.
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You've definitely shown that pattern here. I asked you who those "People who draw all sorts of ridiculous conclusions from the results of DBT" and what the specific ridiculous conclusions were. You still haven't answered. That's because those people and those conclusions are the figment of your own imagination.

Try responding to facts for a change.
I have already answered your question twice in this thread. The answer was, and it still is, the famous Meyer and Moran study plus the resulting massive parade in pretty much every audio related corner of the internet.
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post #52 of 77 Old 05-17-2015, 09:42 PM
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Of course I already knew that. Because, last time I checked, I was the guy who pointed that out to you in the first place.
Now you're just making me laugh. So you already knew, and I already knew it, but you pointed it out to me after I pointed it out to you? My head is spinning.

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No, I am not trying to nitpick. The analog section of the ESS chip requires cleanliness in the 3.3V power signal that feeds it. Says so in the documnet I linked. Again, I can only guess but... shouldn't this be easy for you to verify in a DBT by ultimately putting your money where your mouth is? Or have I just been missing your point again somehow?
I don't have the time or the setup (currently) to conduct a DBT on this. I don't even have the DAC in question. Besides, what good would it do? If I did a DBT and reported I couldn't tell them apart, you'd just say "well just because you can't doesn't mean I can't." Or you'd say my DBT procedure or setup was flawed.

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Eureka. And, how exactly was it that you expected to achieve clock cleanliness without also feeding a clean power signal to the clock?

I know. I've read the application notes, remember?

Ha!
Congrats on reading the app notes, I guess?

I just read them too, for the first time, and lo and behold, what's all that talk about using regulators for its power voltage supplies? Looks like I was right on the money the whole time.

As for feeding a clean power signal to the clock, I'm not sure what you're referring to there. What power is there for the clock? Isn't it a crystal connected directly to the DAC chip? If you're talking about the other voltages feeding power to the chip, again, the key word is regulators.

Looks like the app note substantiates everything I've been saying. Not surprising considering how many app notes I've read over the years and how many DAC ICs I implemented on boards in various products.

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post #53 of 77 Old 05-17-2015, 09:52 PM
 
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I like responding to reality, but I don't like to endlessly respond to your countless fantasies.
Try not to equate what you like or don't like with what you've done.
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I have already answered your question twice in this thread.
No, you haven't. All you've done was to evade.
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post #54 of 77 Old 05-17-2015, 10:32 PM
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Since you've made your respect for Ethan Winer known, as quoted below, you don't have to believe me about DBT, just ask Ethan Winer instead ("Double blind testing is the gold standard for all branches of science, and it's just as necessary when assessing audio equipment."). http://ethanwiner.com/audiophoolery.html
When talking about room acoustic treatment, which is what I was talking about when I mentioned Ethan Winer in the part you quoted, I generally trust the advice given by him and other people who also are fine experts on the subject of room acoustics. However, when talking about DBTs and psychoacoustics, that's when I tend to rely more on wise words from, for example, Bob Stuart of Meridian Audio:


http://www.theabsolutesound.com/forums/threads/13


http://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti...obert-harley-1


http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=17497
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post #55 of 77 Old 05-18-2015, 12:31 AM
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Correct. But he doesn't have a PhD, so I'm curious why you referred to him as Dr. James....
Someone at Stanford University referred to him that way:
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/events/jj...-human-hearing
Even though he doesn't have it, IMHO he's nonetheless earned it. Perhaps the "Dr." just stands for "Dynamic Range".
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post #56 of 77 Old 05-18-2015, 08:20 AM
 
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When talking about room acoustic treatment, which is what I was talking about when I mentioned Ethan Winer in the part you quoted, I generally trust the advice given by him and other people who also are fine experts on the subject of room acoustics. However, when talking about DBTs and psychoacoustics, that's when I tend to rely more on wise words from, for example, Bob Stuart of Meridian Audio:


http://www.theabsolutesound.com/forums/threads/13


http://www.theabsolutesound.com/arti...obert-harley-1


http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=17497
So you've been reading Robert Harley's articles. No wonder you are so misguided about DBT.
Just stick to Ethan's articles and you'll be fine.
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post #57 of 77 Old 05-18-2015, 08:34 AM
 
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Someone at Stanford University referred to him that way:
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/events/jj...-human-hearing
Even though he doesn't have it, IMHO he's nonetheless earned it. Perhaps the "Dr." just stands for "Dynamic Range".
Then you should trust his take on DBT: "He gave a modern view of human perception, with lots of feedback and loss of data as humans interpret things. Ergo, the need for double blind testing (DBT)." http://www.aes.org/sections/reports/?ID=1215
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post #58 of 77 Old 05-18-2015, 07:25 PM
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Holy Schiit, WTF was this thread about again?
ohrbrcko, natchie, Mike_WI and 1 others like this.

Mark
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post #59 of 77 Old 05-19-2015, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mfeust View Post
Holy Schiit, WTF was this thread about again?
About a product with a comical name.
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post #60 of 77 Old 11-18-2017, 06:06 PM
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I know this is a two year old thread, but I recently auditioned schiit yggdrasil and wanted to post my impressions here; It took about 3 weeks to get it after placing the order and $50 shipping fee. I don't much believe in breaking in any product but I put 2 days worth of constant power and signal then head to head compared with Cary 200ts.
I stream my music from JRiver MC via Ethernet to SIMaudio MiND renderer, then connect the AES/EBU digital output to the DAC and the XLR outputs to Hegel H200, which is connected to Martin Logan prodigy speakers.

For the audition, I just swapped the digital and analog XLR cables to the schiit yggdrasil DAC.
I played lots of my favorite red book music (Josh Groban/Sarah Brightman/Sting) and in my set up, schiit yggdrasil sounded inferior to the Cary 200ts especially in the bass section. I am not good at describing music in various ways (warm, dark etc.,) like the reviewers but if it doesn't sound better than my previous component, I usually get rid of any new equipment. So, I returned schiit yggdrasil for refund minus 5% restocking fee, which is better than losing a lot more on Audiogon.

I am going to audition two other DAC's next month (Mytek Manhattan II and Bel Canto 2.7) and will update this thread with my results.

So far Cary 200ts hits the sweet spot for 4-6K DSD DAC ( better than PS audio DS in my system) and it sounds better when I connect it directly to my ATI 6000 XLR inputs. I still choose to keep my Hegel H200 for my music sources as it is more forgiving when quality of recordings are bad.
If someone has all high resolution music/movies, it is stupid not to audition the ATI 6000 amplifier. All my ES speakers (including my Magnepan 3.7 and 1.7 speakers in my movie room) are at least 6db louder and twice as detailed when connected to ATI 6000, compared to several other high powered and more expensive amplifiers (Theta DN2, Classe, Sanders etc).

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Last edited by Shaan1969; 11-19-2017 at 08:14 AM.
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