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post #121 of 179 Old 02-27-2018, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
...

Even the anti pseudo-science folks at Audioholics believe amps and DACs can and do sound different (and they easily measure differences between them). ...
Easy to measure differences. One can measure differences of the same wire but different length.
Audible differences is another thing altogether.
Wonder how many there actually attempted a competent DBT with a statistically significant outcome? Without that, yes they believe but not know.
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post #122 of 179 Old 02-27-2018, 08:02 PM
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...
And yes, the brain where the processing take place can and does mislead. It looks for differences, not sameness most of the time.
Yep. Our brains are wired to seek and find difference. Even when none exist. Doesn't mean that we will always find differences when none exist. Because there can be other mitigating factors to counterbalance those impulses. It's all part of the unpredictable stew of conscious and subconscious factors that can come into play for any listening situation.

So when an audiophile states that they can overcome such biasing issues citing their past experiences when they haven't heard a difference or didn't find an audible improvement of the more expensive device vs the lesser expensive one, it's not a valid conclusion to reach. They shouldn't gain confidence from it. But all too often, they'll do just that.
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post #123 of 179 Old 02-27-2018, 11:18 PM
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Just a question that has always intrigued me for the, shall I call them Measurers?

Purely hypothetical: The specs tell you some piece of kit should sound crap and it does not; or, all your measurements, graphs and numbers tell you that something should sound fantastic and it does not... Which do you believe?

Or is this just that: a purely hypothetical scenario that does not compute in your world?
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post #124 of 179 Old 02-28-2018, 02:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
Just a question that has always intrigued me for the, shall I call them Measurers?

Purely hypothetical: The specs tell you some piece of kit should sound crap and it does not; or, all your measurements, graphs and numbers tell you that something should sound fantastic and it does not... Which do you believe?

Or is this just that: a purely hypothetical scenario that does not compute in your world?
First of all, I understand that your questions are hypothetical. However, in the real world what you are suggesting rarely occurs. Not only in audio, but in other subjective reviews, like those for wine, food, etc. In reality, in the vast majority of cases whenever a person is told that what they are listening to, drinking or tasting is very expensive, has fantastic measurements and they can see it looks pretty, they are most likely to rate it high. Now, of course, if I connect a brick-phone's audio out, from the 90s, to the PM10 and tell you that you are listening to the Marantz SA10, there will probably not be enough bias to counterbalance the crappy converter and preamp of the brick-phone's. But that case is extreme. In most cases, people are comparing very good with extremely good equipment, so the bias factor is signifiant compared to the actual/measurable differences between gear.
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post #125 of 179 Old 02-28-2018, 09:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
Any difference claimed to be perceived has to at least start with a measurable difference. BTW, I actually did hear a channel difference between two amps of the same model. One was -- at least noticeably to me -- producing more bass on the right side than the left side (undesirably so because each channel wasn't balanced or equal to the other in bass output). My senses picked it up right away as soon as I set it up where I had the other one of the same model. Maybe the manufacturing tolerances between channels were fairly loose and the one for the right channel just made the cut, or maybe it was all imagined.
When you find out what it is, please let us know.
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post #126 of 179 Old 02-28-2018, 09:55 AM
 
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BTW,


Here is the famous debate between Atkinson and Kruger if any of you haven't heard it and would like to:
Atkinson has many dogs in the race so his words are tainted with bias.
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post #127 of 179 Old 02-28-2018, 10:20 AM
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OMG - Stop!


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post #128 of 179 Old 02-28-2018, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
Just a question that has always intrigued me for the, shall I call them Measurers?

Purely hypothetical: The specs tell you some piece of kit should sound crap and it does not; or, all your measurements, graphs and numbers tell you that something should sound fantastic and it does not... Which do you believe?

Or is this just that: a purely hypothetical scenario that does not compute in your world?
Yes, that is a common anecdote being bandied about.
No real evidence to support it. While measurements are different as our capability is such to measure extremely small differences, it has to exceed human threshold of detections such as JND(just noticeable differences), etc.

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OMG - Stop!

Just cannot help myself
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post #129 of 179 Old 02-28-2018, 03:44 PM
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As above-
any spec(s) for a given piece of gear is a nice starting point for me. Referencing CD/SACD players, I like to know the S/N ratio.
Referencing an integrated or Power amp, I like the Slew Rate/Damping Factor to be revealed. In the past 3 years, these figures, as it were has never led me stray.
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post #130 of 179 Old 02-28-2018, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
Just a question that has always intrigued me for the, shall I call them Measurers?

Purely hypothetical: The specs tell you some piece of kit should sound crap and it does not; or, all your measurements, graphs and numbers tell you that something should sound fantastic and it does not... Which do you believe?

Or is this just that: a purely hypothetical scenario that does not compute in your world?
If you have a real world example of this, produce it. If not, I don't see the relevance.
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post #131 of 179 Old 03-01-2018, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
Yes, that is a common anecdote being bandied about.
No real evidence to support it. While measurements are different as our capability is such to measure extremely small differences, it has to exceed human threshold of detections such as JND(just noticeable differences), etc.


Just cannot help myself
Okay but you never answered my question.

The specs tell you some piece of kit should sound crap and it does not; or, all your measurements, graphs and numbers tell you that something should sound fantastic and it does not... Which do you believe?

In the scenario I posited, which do you believe?
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post #132 of 179 Old 03-01-2018, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
Okay but you never answered my question.

The specs tell you some piece of kit should sound crap and it does not; or, all your measurements, graphs and numbers tell you that something should sound fantastic and it does not... Which do you believe?

In the scenario I posited, which do you believe?
Yes, and if a pink elephant existed, then we would believe in pink elephants. Or at least, a pink elephant.

If you can provide an actual example of this in reality, then do so. Otherwise, this is no more than debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. And note, that hypothetical assumes the existence of angels in the first place.

So, got something? 'Cause right now, all you've said amounts to "If my uncle was a woman, he'd be my aunt." And...?
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post #133 of 179 Old 03-01-2018, 10:41 AM
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I think it is time for a moderator...

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post #134 of 179 Old 03-01-2018, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
Just a question that has always intrigued me for the, shall I call them Measurers?

Purely hypothetical: The specs tell you some piece of kit should sound crap and it does not; or, all your measurements, graphs and numbers tell you that something should sound fantastic and it does not... Which do you believe?

Or is this just that: a purely hypothetical scenario that does not compute in your world?

First of all, specifications are simply claims made by the manufacturer. They can claim anything (though some claims might get them some legal trouble). Typically, reputable manufacturers make claims that are less than what the equipment is likely to do. For example, I have an old Pioneer SX-1250 receiver that is rated at 160 watts per channel, 20-20kHz, @ 8 ohms with no more than 0.1% THD. After it was more than a decade old, without anything having been done to it, it was measured in a McIntosh Clinic (they used to travel about to audio shops and test people's gear, in an effort to explain to them why a McIntosh amp would be better). Because it was easier to do, it was measured putting out 200 watts into 8 ohms, 20-20kHz, with no more than 0.055% THD. So, being more than a decade old, it exceeded its power ratings with just barely more than half of the rated distortion. That is the sort of thing that occurs with reputable companies, that the piece of equipment typically will perform better than the specifications.

Now, in the case of something measuring well, if one forgot one important measurement, then it measuring great in all of the ways that one measured it, that will not tell one that it will sound good, because one forgot one important measurement that might turn out bad.

If I encountered a case where I thought that everything important was measured, and the results suggested it would sound great, but it sounded like crap, I would want to look into whether there was an error in one of the measurements, or consider the possibility that there was something important that was neglected and not measured. What specific thing I would look for first would depend on how it sounded bad (e.g., deficient in bass, distorted, etc.). It could also be that the gear is now malfunctioning, but was working fine when it was measured. And so it would need to be remeasured.


Now, do you have any examples of this, where there is something that has measured well in all important ways, but sounds bad, and sounds bad when compared with things that sound good, in level matched double blind tests?


My guess of the sort of thing that might come up in real life would be something like looking at the frequency response of a speaker, that is rated 33Hz–17kHz +/-4dB, and someone imagines that that must not be very good. That, however, would be a mistake, because there is little music outside that range, and human hearing is not overly sensitive to those frequencies outside of that range (not to mention the fact that many people cannot hear that high anyway), and the variation from any speaker in your room is likely to be greater than +/-4dB anyway. So, I can easily imagine a case where someone imagines that the numbers are bad, when they are not that bad at all.

Of course, that would be a "bad" rating for an amplifier, but its badness in such a case is because it is easy to get much better performance from an amplifier than that, though it might sound okay in practice. But I would not buy such an amplifier, as it might not sound as good as another, and it is easy and cheap to get something that performs better than that.

(As an aside, that frequency response specification is of a speaker that retails for about $12000/pair. It is not my favorite speaker, but I would not describe it as crap either.)

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post #135 of 179 Old 03-01-2018, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
Okay but you never answered my question.

The specs tell you some piece of kit should sound crap and it does not; or, all your measurements, graphs and numbers tell you that something should sound fantastic and it does not... Which do you believe?

In the scenario I posited, which do you believe?
Well, there is no actual spec numbers posted so, how would anyone know how good the statement is. And the sound judgement is so subjective.
So, I would not believe either statement.
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post #136 of 179 Old 03-01-2018, 04:00 PM
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Well, there is no actual spec numbers posted so, how would anyone know how good the statement is. And the sound judgement is so subjective.
So, I would not believe either statement.
Suppose I heat a pan of water at sea level to 100 degrees. But when I put my hand in the pan of boiling water, it's ice cold!

Haha, what do I think of my fancy measurements now?

This is essentially what he's asking.
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post #137 of 179 Old 03-01-2018, 07:00 PM
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Suppose I heat a pan of water at sea level to 100 degrees. But when I put my hand in the pan of boiling water, it's ice cold!

Haha, what do I think of my fancy measurements now?

This is essentially what he's asking.
That person needs to be examined for nerve damage. or remeasure the pan with another thermometer.
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post #138 of 179 Old 03-01-2018, 11:05 PM
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A designer of audio equipment for 40+ years, can meassure, meassure a lot, to see what need modifying, a speaker frequency response for instance, if it looks like a roller coaster likewise amplifier meassurements show if You are on the right path, mofications and meassurements later when satisfied with seemingly perfect meassurements for Your design goal that part is done, can be verified.

Still we have no idea of how it sounds, that can not be meassured, that is just a point of wiew, that is how i think it sounds, that is my opinion, nothing for which i can use meassurements to prove.

We can not meassure how anything sounds, just how it performs in regard to a set of physical functions., the HOW is not meassurable, it is a point of wiev.

I love this forum and members here are a bunch of fantastic people,and i absolutely love the discussions and friendliness in threads and think the discussions are just as they should be.

When i write about anything wich is not pure fact i allways tell that it is my opinion, and that should never be taken for fact neither nothing i will ever try to prove to be true.
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post #139 of 179 Old 03-02-2018, 06:39 AM
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Here's Audioholics take on amplifiers:


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post #140 of 179 Old 03-02-2018, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
A designer of audio equipment for 40+ years, can meassure, meassure a lot, to see what need modifying, a speaker frequency response for instance, if it looks like a roller coaster likewise amplifier meassurements show if You are on the right path, mofications and meassurements later when satisfied with seemingly perfect meassurements for Your design goal that part is done, can be verified.

Still we have no idea of how it sounds, that can not be meassured, that is just a point of wiew, that is how i think it sounds, that is my opinion, nothing for which i can use meassurements to prove.

We can not meassure how anything sounds, just how it performs in regard to a set of physical functions., the HOW is not meassurable, it is a point of wiev.

I love this forum and members here are a bunch of fantastic people,and i absolutely love the discussions and friendliness in threads and think the discussions are just as they should be.

When i write about anything wich is not pure fact i allways tell that it is my opinion, and that should never be taken for fact neither nothing i will ever try to prove to be true.

Many people seem to fail to understand the fact that if someone says one thing sounds better than another, that is not merely an expression of opinion, but there is a matter of fact entailed by that claim, and that is that the two things do actually sound different. If they sounded the same, then it would be impossible for one to sound better than the other. So when we are dealing with things for which we have reason to believe that they do sound the same, then the claim is one that needs support. But when it is something that we do expect to sound different, then we do not ask for that support. This is why you don't see the same sorts of conversations when someone says that one speaker sounds better than another, because with speakers, they commonly measure such that one would expect to hear a difference between them, so the presumption is that they do sound different (even though, typically, one does not bother with measurements to show that the two specific speakers are enough different to make an audible difference, because, again, speakers commonly will measure sufficiently different from each other to sound different).

So, when I say that my Apogee Stage speakers are the best sounding speakers I have ever owned, people generally accept it as an opinion, as they generally already accept the fact that they do sound different from many other speakers (and maybe all other speakers). But if I said that my CD player that I am using with those speakers is the best sounding CD player I have ever owned, then some people are likely to challenge this, as they do not accept the idea that it sounds different from most other CD players.

In fact, most people operate as described, though how they will react to a specific instance will depend upon their beliefs about it. To give an example that will work with most people, if I said that my system sounds better when I put little crystals (rocks) on top of my amplifier, I would likely get more people questioning such a claim, because most people are not going to believe that that could make any difference in the sound. And, of course, if it makes no difference in the sound, then it cannot sound better (or worse). Which, if it does not make a difference in the sound, would mean that the claim (that it sounds better) is false.

Also, if I were to claim that it was just a personal opinion, that, too, would make no difference, as I have taken it out of the realm of just my opinion once I post it on a public forum (or by stating it publicly in some other way). By posting it publicly, I make it a public statement, and consequently I am inviting public comment on whatever claim I have made.
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post #141 of 179 Old 03-02-2018, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
A designer of audio equipment for 40+ years, can meassure, meassure a lot, to see what need modifying, a speaker frequency response for instance, if it looks like a roller coaster likewise amplifier meassurements show if You are on the right path, mofications and meassurements later when satisfied with seemingly perfect meassurements for Your design goal that part is done, can be verified.

Still we have no idea of how it sounds, that can not be meassured, that is just a point of wiew, that is how i think it sounds, that is my opinion, nothing for which i can use meassurements to prove.

We can not meassure how anything sounds, just how it performs in regard to a set of physical functions., the HOW is not meassurable, it is a point of wiev.

I love this forum and members here are a bunch of fantastic people,and i absolutely love the discussions and friendliness in threads and think the discussions are just as they should be.

When i write about anything wich is not pure fact i allways tell that it is my opinion, and that should never be taken for fact neither nothing i will ever try to prove to be true.
Interestingly, when Dr. Floyd Toole was working and researching loudspeakers at the Canadian National Lab, his research showed what speaker specs listeners preferred
most. Flat frequency response, as flat as one can get with a speaker, and a couple of other characteristics.
He has spoken about this in a number of on line available videos.
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post #142 of 179 Old 03-02-2018, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
Here's Audioholics take on amplifiers:


...]
If I remember reading a while back, one of the members suggested that they should invite Tom Nousaine to conduct a DBT or two.
Idea was rejected.
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post #143 of 179 Old 03-03-2018, 07:48 PM
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If I remember reading a while back, one of the members suggested that they should invite Tom Nousaine to conduct a DBT or two.
Idea was rejected.
Just because some of what someone says is right, it does not make everything they say right. And sometimes people who believe drivel know a thing or two. For example, I have encountered someone who not only believes he can always hear differences between wires (both interconnects between electronics and speaker wire), but can hear differences when the ONLY difference is in the insulation on the wire and not the wire itself; and not only that, but claimed to hear a difference when the ONLY difference in the insulation was not the basic material, but the pigment that caused the color of the insulation to be different. He appeared quite sincere and insisted that he could do this. (Of course, he never submitted to properly conducted testing, as believers in foolish drivel virtually never do. If they were interested in proper testing, they would not believe such nonsense for long.) Now, that is all quite insane. But, if someone were to ask a question that would be potentially dangerous and damaging to equipment, he could be counted on to give the right answer to that. So he was not wrong about everything, and actually knew some useful information (while still holding crazy beliefs, as he did not understand the need for testing or have a good grasp on the essential aspects of scientific reasoning).

So, to summarize, to be correct about one thing does not guarantee being correct about other things, and being wrong about some things does not guarantee being wrong about other things.

As for the people at that other website, they provide a lot of good and useful information. But that does not make them infallible and never wrong.

All of this should be perfectly obvious to everyone, but given how people like to appeal to authority, rather than look at actual evidence, it would appear that some people do not know this.
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post #144 of 179 Old 03-04-2018, 11:30 AM
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Can we get back to the Marantz SA-10 player itself please?!

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post #145 of 179 Old 03-04-2018, 01:05 PM
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This person DID hear differences accurately with level matching (except on amplifiers)!

https://www.dagogo.com/audio-by-van-...-store-wiring/
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post #146 of 179 Old 03-04-2018, 01:28 PM
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This person DID hear differences accurately with level matching (except on amplifiers)!

https://www.dagogo.com/audio-by-van-...-store-wiring/

Yeah, but even sighted (when he knew which one was playing) he heard no differences, so it's no surprise he still heard no differences when ABXing them blind.
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Can we get back to the Marantz SA-10 player itself please?!
All there is to talk about in audio aspects have been talked about already.
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post #148 of 179 Old 03-04-2018, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by charmerci View Post
This person DID hear differences accurately with level matching (except on amplifiers)!

https://www.dagogo.com/audio-by-van-...-store-wiring/
I must have missed how the levels are matched and to what level of matching. 1 db is not close enough.
I also missed how the X comes into the test protocol. 10 trials should have been the minimum.
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post #149 of 179 Old 03-04-2018, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
Yeah, but even sighted (when he knew which one was playing) he heard no differences, so it's no surprise he still heard no differences when ABXing them blind.
They were only two expensive amps Wells Audio and VAC - unfotunately, he never compared them to a Sony! lol Plus, he heard differences accurately with pre-amps and cables!
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post #150 of 179 Old 03-04-2018, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post
... For example, I have encountered someone who not only believes he can always hear differences between wires (both interconnects between electronics and speaker wire), but can hear differences when the ONLY difference is in the insulation on the wire and not the wire itself; and not only that, but claimed to hear a difference when the ONLY difference in the insulation was not the basic material, but the pigment that caused the color of the insulation to be different. He appeared quite sincere and insisted that he could do this. ...
Yes, he is not a mystery poster but is at AA.
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