How come SACD player can't output Digital Co-ax but can output thru HDMI? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 54 Old 12-28-2017, 01:08 AM - Thread Starter
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How come SACD player can't output Digital Co-ax but can output thru HDMI?

this is pointless. All the new SACD players, like the ones from Marantz or Pioneer PD-70, does not output SACD thru SPDIF, but if you have a DVD player that output HDMI, SACD CAN output thru HDMI. So what's the point of this copyright thing?
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post #2 of 54 Old 12-28-2017, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post
this is pointless. All the new SACD players, like the ones from Marantz or Pioneer PD-70, does not output SACD thru SPDIF, but if you have a DVD player that output HDMI, SACD CAN output thru HDMI. So what's the point of this copyright thing?
It's part of the licensing agreement for SACD. Just a fact of life. It's also an inherent part of copy protection of SACD discs.
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post #3 of 54 Old 12-28-2017, 02:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I know that. But that BEFORE HDMI comes out. So I can get digital out thru HDMI, as such, having this agreement to bound co-ax is pointless
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post #4 of 54 Old 12-28-2017, 11:52 AM
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Optical I/F [aka TOSLINK & identical data via SPDIF Coax] does NOT have sufficient bandwidth to carry Native SACD and the new Hi-Rez "Loss-Less" Digital Audio Formats....which is why they appear on the HDMI I/F:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF

So, in order to Output Surround via Optical/SPDIF, Player would have to CONVERT from Multi-Channel SACD to DD5.1 or DTS5.1...both of which are COMPRESSED formats....thereby defeating ALL advantages of the Super-Hi-Fidelity SACD Waveform.....so they chose to NOT Output a DEGRADED signal (other than perhaps a Hi-Rez PCM Stereo signal):
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post #5 of 54 Old 12-28-2017, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post
this is pointless. All the new SACD players, like the ones from Marantz or Pioneer PD-70, does not output SACD thru SPDIF, but if you have a DVD player that output HDMI, SACD CAN output thru HDMI. So what's the point of this copyright thing?
It is not just the new players: all SACD players originally had to output via 5.1 analogue outs using an rca plug for each channel, which required you to own an amp or receiver with at least 5.1 analogue inputs. The first SACD players with HDMI also couldn't output via HDMI because most amps and receivers were not able to process DSD directly.
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post #6 of 54 Old 12-28-2017, 08:22 PM
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Good point....my OPPO BDP-93 [et.al.] BR-Player and new UD-Players are among the rare Players that Output ALL of the Digital Audio Formats without being down-rezed (incl. Loss-Less w & w/o ATMOS extensions) via both HDMI and the 5.1/7.1 Analog RCA Output Jacks. Which means my High-end pre-HDMI AVR is STILL capable of playing back ALL of the new Digital Audio Formats supported by the OPPO Players.

This means I did NOT have to buy a new AVR every other year or so to keep up with all of the HDMI version changes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Versions
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post #7 of 54 Old 12-29-2017, 04:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
Optical I/F [aka TOSLINK & identical data via SPDIF Coax] does NOT have sufficient bandwidth to carry Native SACD and the new Hi-Rez "Loss-Less" Digital Audio Formats....which is why they appear on the HDMI I/F:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF

So, in order to Output Surround via Optical/SPDIF, Player would have to CONVERT from Multi-Channel SACD to DD5.1 or DTS5.1...both of which are COMPRESSED formats....thereby defeating ALL advantages of the Super-Hi-Fidelity SACD Waveform.....so they chose to NOT Output a DEGRADED signal (other than perhaps a Hi-Rez PCM Stereo signal):
are you saying this is not a copyright thing? rather, just a bandwidth limitation? hey if so, let the user decides, I'll take my limited bandwidth of SACD thru my digital co-ax. That's my business if I lost some signal
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post #8 of 54 Old 12-29-2017, 04:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
Good point....my OPPO BDP-93 [et.al.] BR-Player and new UD-Players are among the rare Players that Output ALL of the Digital Audio Formats without being down-rezed (incl. Loss-Less w & w/o ATMOS extensions) via both HDMI and the 5.1/7.1 Analog RCA Output Jacks. Which means my High-end pre-HDMI AVR is STILL capable of playing back ALL of the new Digital Audio Formats supported by the OPPO Players.

This means I did NOT have to buy a new AVR every other year or so to keep up with all of the HDMI version changes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Versions
Sony SCD-XA5400ES which c/w HDMI output can do the same thing
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post #9 of 54 Old 12-29-2017, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by madaudio View Post
It is not just the new players: all SACD players originally had to output via 5.1 analogue outs using an rca plug for each channel, which required you to own an amp or receiver with at least 5.1 analogue inputs. The first SACD players with HDMI also couldn't output via HDMI because most amps and receivers were not able to process DSD directly.
HDMI 1.1 couldn't either, forcing players to covert to PCM first.
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post #10 of 54 Old 12-31-2017, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post
are you saying this is not a copyright thing? rather, just a bandwidth limitation? hey if so, let the user decides, I'll take my limited bandwidth of SACD thru my digital co-ax. That's my business if I lost some signal
Yeah it's mostly a CP issue one of reasons that SACD did better than DVD-A which was cracked early on. There is also bandwidth and protocol issues.

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post #11 of 54 Old 12-31-2017, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bradman View Post
HDMI 1.1 couldn't either, forcing players to covert to PCM first.
Yup. DSD support came with HDMI 1.2!

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post #12 of 54 Old 12-31-2017, 11:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I never know it's a bandwidth issue. I only know it's a copyright issue. Since it's also a bandwidth issue, does this really work then:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=5557

this is a gadget that convert HDMI to Digital Coax
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post #13 of 54 Old 01-01-2018, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post
I never know it's a bandwidth issue. I only know it's a copyright issue. Since it's also a bandwidth issue, does this really work then:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=5557

this is a gadget that convert HDMI to Digital Coax
PCM only

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post #14 of 54 Old 01-02-2018, 02:49 PM
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I still have a player linked via firewire. Sounds great.
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post #15 of 54 Old 01-05-2018, 11:41 PM
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If this thread is going to keep going, can someone fix the typo in the title (SCAD ??? SACD????) before it drives me nuts?
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post #16 of 54 Old 01-05-2018, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by madaudio View Post
If this thread is going to keep going, can someone fix the typo in the title (SCAD ??? SACD????) before it drives me nuts?
Amen! OR, change it to SCAM ha ha
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post #17 of 54 Old 01-05-2018, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post
does not output SACD thru SPDIF, but...CAN output thru HDMI. So what's the point of this copyright thing?
As others noted, neither SPDIF nor (I think) coax has enough bandwidth to pass a DSD signal. Over HDMI, I believe the copy protection has to "handshake" to the receiver or something like that, so you still can't get the bitstream out. Of course, it is always POSSIBLE. However, under the current nasty wording of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, any attempt to circumvent said copy protection is punishable by huge fines and maybe even prison, it is SO ridiculous. Especially since you can download disc images from Russian websites, which in the case of Rumours sometimes tempts me!
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post #18 of 54 Old 01-06-2018, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by head_unit View Post
As others noted, neither SPDIF nor (I think) coax has enough bandwidth to pass a DSD signal. Over HDMI, I believe the copy protection has to "handshake" to the receiver or something like that, so you still can't get the bitstream out. Of course, it is always POSSIBLE. However, under the current nasty wording of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, any attempt to circumvent said copy protection is punishable by huge fines and maybe even prison, it is SO ridiculous. Especially since you can download disc images from Russian websites, which in the case of Rumours sometimes tempts me!
When you said DSD, are you talking about DSD signal on a SACD? Or DSD signal on a regular CD?

because I have many regular CD that says DSD on it, and as all we know, almost all regular Cd player output digital co-ax or Toslink only. So the band width has to be wide enough for DSD on a regular Cd.

Of course, it's not wide enough for the SACD to pass a DSD signal
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post #19 of 54 Old 01-06-2018, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madaudio View Post
If this thread is going to keep going, can someone fix the typo in the title (SCAD ??? SACD????) before it drives me nuts?
I just notice it. But you can't change title, can you?
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post #20 of 54 Old 01-06-2018, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post
When you said DSD, are you talking about DSD signal on a SACD? Or DSD signal on a regular CD?
There are no DSD signals on a regular CD.

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because I have many regular CD that says DSD on it,
I really doubt that. It is more likely that these CDs have content that was originally recorded and/or mastered in DSD.

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and as all we know, almost all regular Cd player output digital co-ax or Toslink only. So the band width has to be wide enough for DSD on a regular Cd.
See above.

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Of course, it's not wide enough for the SACD to pass a DSD signal
No comment.

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post #21 of 54 Old 01-06-2018, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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https://www.yesasia.com/global/%E7%B...h_TW/info.html

if you go to Yesasia.com, and just type in DSD on their search bar, you'll find 1800+ Cd w/ DSD on it.

Most of them are just regular DSD CD, like the above
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post #22 of 54 Old 01-06-2018, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post
https://www.yesasia.com/global/%E7%B...h_TW/info.html

if you go to Yesasia.com, and just type in DSD on their search bar, you'll find 1800+ Cd w/ DSD on it.

Most of them are just regular DSD CD, like the above
Misleading rip-offs, all of them. There is no way to copy DSD files to a RedBook (standard) CD. It would be out of spec and unplayable.
As I said, there are many CDs (as defined in the Red-Book standard) that have large DSD labels on them in order to mislead purchasers. Many of those might actually have been mastered in DSD prior to being converted to 16/44.1 PCM but, in the end, they are merely standard CDs.

If you purchased discs like these in the belief they actually had DSD info on them, I am sorry to tell you that you have been misled. Notice this from the listing (emphasis added):
product name: Red Dust (DSD CD)
Singer name: Ye Qianwen
Release Date: 2004-07-13
Language: Cantonese
Disc format: CD
Weight (With Package): 90 (g)
Shipping Unit: 1 What is it?
Publisher: Warner Music Records (HK)
No Rating Available 1003693513

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post #23 of 54 Old 01-06-2018, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post
When you said DSD, are you talking about DSD signal on a SACD? Or DSD signal on a regular CD?

because I have many regular CD that says DSD on it, and as all we know, almost all regular Cd player output digital co-ax or Toslink only. So the band width has to be wide enough for DSD on a regular Cd.

Of course, it's not wide enough for the SACD to pass a DSD signal
There is no such thing as "DSD on a regular CD":
- There may be ordinary CDs which have been made from a DSD recording, but the data is still 16 bit 44.1 kHz
- There are a few pure SACDs which have only DSD data
- "SACDs" are mostly HYBRID discs, which have a CD layer + an SACD layer.
In no way can you pass the DSD data over optic etc.

If you play a hybrid SACD and get sound over optic, it is coming from the CD layer of the hybrid disc. Some players will also convert the DSD into PCM but that is generally for output into HDMI. The reason for this is that receiver features such as time alignment, bass management, and room correction are only available in multibit PCM.
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post #24 of 54 Old 01-06-2018, 02:56 PM
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"DSD" on a CD indicates that a Very High Fidelity Recorder using DSD format was used for the recording (vice PCM)....although the MIXER and the final MASTER were likely 48 or 96 or 192 ksps, 24-bit PCM, before being down-rezzed to 44.1 ksps, 16-bi PCM CD Format.

Remember when CD's were labeled D/D/D or A/D/D to indicate that the Recording/Mixing/Master was either Digital or Analog??? Perhaps a new label would be appropriate to indicate whether DSD, PCM or Analog is used at each stage in the process....

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post #25 of 54 Old 01-06-2018, 03:00 PM
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"DSD" on a CD indicates that a Very High Fidelity Recorder using DSD format was used for the recording (vice PCM)....although the MIXER and the final MASTER were likely PCM.
I don't think there is any guarantee of that unless it is explicitly stated on the product. Often it just indicates that it was mastered in DSD. Either way, it is unimportant, imho.

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post #26 of 54 Old 01-06-2018, 03:19 PM
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I don't think there is any guarantee of that unless it is explicitly stated on the product. Often it just indicates that it was mastered in DSD. Either way, it is unimportant, imho.
Agree with Kal. Regular redbook CDs do not contain any DSD layer. This is purely false advertising. If the disc explicitly states "hybrid" it will contain both SACD and CD layers.
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post #27 of 54 Old 01-06-2018, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by head_unit View Post
There is no such thing as "DSD on a regular CD":
Drop the microphone!

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post #28 of 54 Old 01-07-2018, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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well, the co. who advertise DSD CD are co. like UMG. Don't kill the messager. Go write them a letter
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post #29 of 54 Old 01-07-2018, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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well, the co. who advertise DSD CD are co. like UMG. Don't kill the messager. Go write them a letter
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post #30 of 54 Old 01-08-2018, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by happy hopping View Post
well, the co. who advertise DSD CD are co. like UMG. Don't kill the messager. Go write them a letter
Not my problem.

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