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post #31 of 87 Old 03-17-2018, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
No joke. Other than tube (output buffer) CD players, I haven't heard of any disc players produced in last 25 years that made audible difference in level matched double blind test.
No problem. If *you* haven't heard of any then they must not exist. Settled. Forget all the audio theory and science.

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post #32 of 87 Old 03-17-2018, 10:32 PM
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No problem. If *you* haven't heard of any then they must not exist. Settled. Forget all the audio theory and science.
See, this is where you go off the rails. You raise the issue of jitter, then claim it's irrelevant when you get called on it. (Rather strange for someone who claims omniscience, but, whatever.) Then when your claim about audible differences in CD players is challenged, you pout and avoid answering.

If jitter isn't the point, then why did you raise it? If there are clear audible differences between CD players, then why don't you support that with examples?

I have to say, for such an expert, you get remarkably tongue-tied by the easiest questions.
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post #33 of 87 Old 03-17-2018, 10:58 PM
 
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No problem. If *you* haven't heard of any then they must not exist. Settled. Forget all the audio theory and science.
I was asking if you have heard of any.
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post #34 of 87 Old 03-17-2018, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jsrtheta View Post
See, this is where you go off the rails. You raise the issue of jitter, then claim it's irrelevant when you get called on it. (Rather strange for someone who claims omniscience, but, whatever.) Then when your claim about audible differences in CD players is challenged, you pout and avoid answering.

If jitter isn't the point, then why did you raise it? If there are clear audible differences between CD players, then why don't you support that with examples?

I have to say, for such an expert, you get remarkably tongue-tied by the easiest questions.
I have never claimed jitter is irrelevant. Jitter (in reference to reading CD audio) is simply the difference in bits on a data read from the actual stored bits on the disk. Since CDDA contains no error correction at all (a point you were wrong about), there will always be some amount of jitter. It's not something that is present on one cd player and not another. It's present on all players, all disks and the variance between disk to disk is going to vary. I simply brought this up to counter the point that "bits are bits" as this is another statement made that was flat out wrong in this case.

What I have said is that this stuff is common knowledge level stuff that is very easy to look up. I'm not typing pages of text here to explain it to you when you can just research it a tiny bit and find oodles of information on these subjects. Rather than call me tongue tied, try to not be so lazy and do a tiny bit of research on the matter. There is a lot of science involved in methodologies in reading CDDA data. The exact audio copy home page did a decent job explaining a lot of it.

To ask "Which disc player caused this audible issue" indicates such a complete lack of understanding of the matter, I seriously thought that guy had to be joking.

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post #35 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 12:09 AM
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I have never claimed jitter is irrelevant. Jitter (in reference to reading CD audio) is simply the difference in bits on a data read from the actual stored bits on the disk. Since CDDA contains no error correction at all (a point you were wrong about), there will always be some amount of jitter. It's not something that is present on one cd player and not another. It's present on all players, all disks and the variance between disk to disk is going to vary. I simply brought this up to counter the point that "bits are bits" as this is another statement made that was flat out wrong in this case.

What I have said is that this stuff is common knowledge level stuff that is very easy to look up. I'm not typing pages of text here to explain it to you when you can just research it a tiny bit and find oodles of information on these subjects. Rather than call me tongue tied, try to not be so lazy and do a tiny bit of research on the matter. There is a lot of science involved in methodologies in reading CDDA data. The exact audio copy home page did a decent job explaining a lot of it.

To ask "Which disc player caused this audible issue" indicates such a complete lack of understanding of the matter, I seriously thought that guy had to be joking.
Yeah, about that, I've been "looking it up" for about twenty years, but I guess all that stuff about CIRC, and PLLs and stuff was just imaginary? Please, oh wise man, enlighten us!

In the meantime, you have been asked about jitter, and you've provided a mealy-mouthed, kindergarten-level description of it and a lot of hand-waving about "a lot of science," when the question is when is it audible. To which you have avoided an answer repeatedly. You have been asked about audible differences between CD players, and you lamely claim you thought LFEer was joking, and then still not answer the question. My, my, my.

If you're going to patronize people, it would help if you had something to back it up. Though you did give me a laugh with the error correction nonsense.
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post #36 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 01:06 AM
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A bit is not a bit.

CD audio is 16-bit:
0000 0000 0000 0000

0000 0000 0000 0001<<If this bit gets flipped, nobody cares! 0 vs 1 (i.e. it just got 0.0000000001db louder!)
>>1000 0000 0000 0000 If this bit gets flipped, you'll probably notice! 0 vs 32768 (i.e. it just got 93db louder!!!!!!!!!)

and that's why bluray audio (Dolby and DTS) has error correction, which makes it immune to jitter.
But PCM / CD audio is a different beast, much older and not nearly as smart. (So stop using it!)

Even the cheapest DAC's today are far better than human hearing, so the analog conversion should be near-flawless, assuming all the bits get there, and for the most part, they do all get there.

If you have ever heard a CD in a car skip or glitch out, that's what happens when lots of the bits don't all make it.
If enough bits are flipped or lost, it's totally obvious when it happens.
It just keeps glitching until it can read from the disc, or it skips to the next song or even to the very end of the disc.

If you want to test yourself, download audacity and open a song, zoom in and change the amplitude of just one of the samples and hit play. See if you can hear a single sample being flipped from all zeros to all ones. (i.e. 0db to full clipped.)
I just made myself curious, I'll have to try it and see what it sounds like! See if it can be heard...
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post #37 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 01:22 AM
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So I tried flipping a single sample from 0db to full clipping.

It's totally audible, so I'm pretty confident that a single MSB bit being flipped is audible.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=12D...-24EtG3719eek1

and most CD's are glitch free, and so all of the bits must be making it.

So there you have it!
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post #38 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 07:38 AM
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ive tested a few Blueray and dvd players , currently using a Sony x800 . I "thought" I don't need and stand alone CD player the Sony should do just fine . also Im currently, I'm looking for a good quality stand alone CD player ! just my opinion yes I can get by with the Sony X800 but ... blueray and dvd players are for movies silly rabbit and thats what the servo's in them are geared for ... huge differance ? maybe not but dont we strive for the best sound we can get within our budget ? i do
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post #39 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 09:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
To ask "Which disc player caused this audible issue" indicates such a complete lack of understanding of the matter, I seriously thought that guy had to be joking.
That question was in response to your audibility claim quoted below.
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Obviously the more inaccurate the non-error corrected stream is read off the CD, the more audible this becomes.
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post #40 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 09:15 AM
 
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but dont we strive for the best sound we can get within our budget ? i do
Sure, but disc player isn't the area to look into. It's the speakers and room acoustics.
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post #41 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 10:52 AM
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Sure, but disc player isn't the area to look into. It's the speakers and room acoustics.
I have to some what disagree . it begins with the media then source ,amp .... speakers make or break any good setup but if its not good in the first place its still bad no matter what you use for speakers .In fact good speakers will let you know in a hurry how crappy a recording/source may be . room acoustics / placement - well that's just a given and usually not to big of a problem to fix or work around .

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post #42 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 11:15 AM
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I have to some what disagree . it begins with the media then source ,amp .... speakers make or break any good setup but if its not good in the first place its still bad no matter what you use for speakers .In fact good speakers will let you know in a hurry how crappy a recording/source may be . room acoustics / placement - well that's just a given and usually not to big of a problem to fix or work around .
The two most important factors in home audio reproduction are the speakers and the space (room).

The rest isn't nearly as important, and largely interchangeable.
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post #43 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 11:16 AM
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That question was in response to your audibility claim quoted below.
Man, it got quiet all of a sudden....
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post #44 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
But the question is, how do those drawer/ loading mechanism translate to sound quality of the player?
It is more robust.

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(Sorry - hit the wrong key)....
You have this problems too?
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What audible problem is there?

But the important question is, how do all these translate to sound quality of the player?
He has no clue about error correction in a player. Many articles have been written on this in the past, going way back to day two of the CD revolution. No longer measure with that special CD how much a player can handle. Ancient history.

Jitter is not about error correction but timing and is very well under control. Again he has no clue.
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post #45 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 01:03 PM
 
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Other than tube (output buffer) CD players, I haven't heard of any disc players produced in last 25 years that made audible difference in level matched double blind test.
You told us a week ago in the thread below (see Posts 10, 22, and 29) about your subjective and level-matched blind testing of disc players. But you did not mention which players.

It would be educational and informative for everyone to learn what specific players you tested, how you would describe their sonics when you listened to them subjectively, and then what the results were of the DBT comparisons.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/153-cd...cd-player.html
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post #46 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 01:13 PM
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would i get a better sound output playing music CD's from a CD player like an Onkyo DX-C390 vs an LG BMD Bluray player assuming both are plugged in via an opt or coax cable?

thanks
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Actually not at all. The OP asked about digital audio input from CD player vs BD Player, and the answer is it depends on the DAC used in each device.
...
It reads like he asked about the digital output from the two players. Are you implying that the digital out is different or can be somehow?
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post #47 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 01:30 PM
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You told us a week ago in the thread below (see Posts 10, 22, and 29) about your subjective and level-matched blind testing of disc players. But you did not mention which players.

It would be educational and informative for everyone to learn what specific players you tested, how you would describe their sonics when you listened to them subjectively, and then what the results were of the DBT comparisons.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/153-cd...cd-player.html
I wasn't there, of course. But if players cannot be differentiated audibly in such test, they would have the same subjective sound quality, right? Unless he compares all players to find a different sound then he could, perhaps state a subjective quality how one sounded different from the rest, no?
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post #48 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 01:35 PM
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I am guessing real world stuff (90s cd player vs bluray player) i wont hear much of a diff in sound quality...i noticed in ebay there's a lot of 90's early 2000s dedicated CD players going cheap...
Yeah, because they are OLD. Forget that stuff. If you are running optic or coax, it is very unlikely you would hear a difference if the disc is clean, and no reason not to use a Blu-ray player. Bits ARE bits, IF they are read correctly AND transported accurately-but a scratched disc can make the servos work so hard it pollutes the audio via the power supply (that's not a theory, that's something I've measured personally).
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post #49 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 02:01 PM
 
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The two most important factors in home audio reproduction are the speakers and the space (room).

The rest isn't nearly as important, and largely interchangeable.
Unfortunately, loudspeakers can sound only as good as what is fed to them. Bad sonics going in results in bad sonics coming out. It's the old "weak link in the chain" problem.

There were several CD players and Blu-ray players that I tested and discussed in Post 4 of this thread that I did not like sonically. If someone gave them to me for free I still would not use any of them for music listening. Some made me cringe. Sometimes I had to hit the stop button on a player and leave the room for awhile because upper midrange harshness and edginess were giving me a headache.

Maybe to you disc players and other components are largely interchangeable, but certainly not to my ears.

You are adamant that "bits are bits." May I ask which specific transports you have critically tested and compared at home using a good audio system and reference-quality CDs that led you to arrive at that conclusion?
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post #50 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 02:55 PM
 
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It is more robust.
In that case, someone could market a disc player with loading mechanism made out of titanium and call it the ultimate robust sound.
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post #51 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 03:14 PM
 
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I wasn't there, of course. But if players cannot be differentiated audibly in such test, they would have the same subjective sound quality, right? Unless he compares all players to find a different sound then he could, perhaps state a subjective quality how one sounded different from the rest, no?
Subjective and blind testing do not necessarily provide the same information.

I have discussed many times over the years here at AVS, learned through experience, what one learns from DBTs and how limited they are in determining overall sound quality of a component. To explain briefly:

Long-term listening, particularly at home over weeks and months, brings out every part of a given component's attributes and deficiencies, from the significant to the subtle.

When you put two components into a DBT (or any other type of blind test) an experienced participant will usually look for a single sonic parameter to differentiate Component A from Component B. Once that individual parameter is found, it becomes rather easy to determine which component is which. Unfortunately, the blind test will not tell you what that product (amplifier, CD player, DAC, etc.) sounds like in its entirety. Hence the limited value of blind testing.
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post #52 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 03:59 PM
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Yes, per CD Red Book Spec, all CD (et.al. formats) use Interleaved Reed Solomon Error Correction Code:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-...Solomon_coding
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compac..._Digital_Audio
Provides very effective protection against scratches and other surface defects. Since there isn't an option to chose different Codes with difference performance, ALL CD-Players implement the Same Algorithm and hence ALL perform the Same. Some Players may be more Tolerant of Really Bad CD's [the ones the KIDS never take care of] due to Laser Pickup differences....but comparison tests for this "feature" [multiple Lasers???] are very rare....and unnecessary if you take care of your Discs....

And for CD Players designed for Handheld and Mobile applications, about 20-years ago they found the need to have several seconds of Memory available, so that when bumps occur, that area of the disc could be reread to reconstruct (mostly) error-free audio signals. Obviously NOT a problem with Home CD Players.

So as I said, Bits-are-Bits.....and the algorithm to Process those Bits is the SAME....and for OP's question, the D/A Converter would be the SAME one in his AVR....or Integrated Amp....or Preamp....whatever is used.

This was NEVER about which Player has the very slightly "better" D/A Converter driving it's Audio Stereo (Red/White RCA) Outputs [which OP is NOT using]. And OP didn't contemplate changing the OTHER part of the System containing the ACTIVE D/A Converter.....

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post #53 of 87 Old 03-18-2018, 07:27 PM
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Subjective and blind testing do not necessarily provide the same information.

I have discussed many times over the years here at AVS, learned through experience, what one learns from DBTs and how limited they are in determining overall sound quality of a component. To explain briefly:

Long-term listening, particularly at home over weeks and months, brings out every part of a given component's attributes and deficiencies, from the significant to the subtle.

When you put two components into a DBT (or any other type of blind test) an experienced participant will usually look for a single sonic parameter to differentiate Component A from Component B. Once that individual parameter is found, it becomes rather easy to determine which component is which. Unfortunately, the blind test will not tell you what that product (amplifier, CD player, DAC, etc.) sounds like in its entirety. Hence the limited value of blind testing.
Nothing prevents a person from listening for a month or a year under DBT protocols and listen to any sound quality you want. But, you are welcome to use whatever protocol you want for yourself. As to its value for others, that is up to them to decide, right?
In the end, not under DBT, meaningless.
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Nothing prevents a person from listening for a month or a year under DBT protocols and listen to any sound quality you want. But, you are welcome to use whatever protocol you want for yourself. As to its value for others, that is up to them to decide, right?
In the end, not under DBT, meaningless.
Nobody participates in a properly conducted DBT comparing two components beyond an hour or so. Usually much less time than that. Your timeframes are ludicrous.

Now you tell me what you learned from your personal experience participating in DBTs.
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LFEer:

You have been asked twice about the "plenty" of disc players you said you compared subjectively and via DBT. I provided the specific models I tested along with performance results and associated components utilized. You have yet to provide any information at all. Absolutely nothing.

You do not have to list all the models you say were tested. Just describe two comparisons (four players or transports total). I provided my findings on a total of 11 different models. It is certainly easy for you to respond with your findings on only four models.
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post #56 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 04:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Subsider View Post
ive tested a few Blueray and dvd players , currently using a Sony x800 . I "thought" I don't need and stand alone CD player the Sony should do just fine . also Im currently, I'm looking for a good quality stand alone CD player ! just my opinion yes I can get by with the Sony X800 but ... blueray and dvd players are for movies silly rabbit and thats what the servo's in them are geared for ... huge differance ? maybe not but dont we strive for the best sound we can get within our budget ? i do
Im with you on this. maybe i am trying to satisfy my empty analog or coax input and looking to add to my already gathering dust system haha..

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post #57 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 11:09 AM
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Unfortunately, loudspeakers can sound only as good as what is fed to them. Bad sonics going in results in bad sonics coming out. It's the old "weak link in the chain" problem.

There were several CD players and Blu-ray players that I tested and discussed in Post 4 of this thread that I did not like sonically. If someone gave them to me for free I still would not use any of them for music listening. Some made me cringe. Sometimes I had to hit the stop button on a player and leave the room for awhile because upper midrange harshness and edginess were giving me a headache.

Maybe to you disc players and other components are largely interchangeable, but certainly not to my ears.

You are adamant that "bits are bits." May I ask which specific transports you have critically tested and compared at home using a good audio system and reference-quality CDs that led you to arrive at that conclusion?
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PS Audio Lambda II, IIse
CEC TL-1
Parasound C/DB 2000
Rega Jupiter
Rotel RDD-980
Audio Alchemy I (I forget the exact model number, but their first, two-box transport)
Audio Alchemy II (Same, but a one box design, Sony mechanism)
Museatex CDD (two of them)
Parasound CD player & Parasound CD changer
Marantz CD-63SE
EAD T-1000
Audiolab CDM

That's all I can remember offhand.
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post #58 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 11:13 AM
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Subjective and blind testing do not necessarily provide the same information.

I have discussed many times over the years here at AVS, learned through experience, what one learns from DBTs and how limited they are in determining overall sound quality of a component. To explain briefly:

Long-term listening, particularly at home over weeks and months, brings out every part of a given component's attributes and deficiencies, from the significant to the subtle.

When you put two components into a DBT (or any other type of blind test) an experienced participant will usually look for a single sonic parameter to differentiate Component A from Component B. Once that individual parameter is found, it becomes rather easy to determine which component is which. Unfortunately, the blind test will not tell you what that product (amplifier, CD player, DAC, etc.) sounds like in its entirety. Hence the limited value of blind testing.
Well, you've convinced us how you would do a DBT. Not particularly persuasive otherwise.
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post #59 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 11:15 AM
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Nobody participates in a properly conducted DBT comparing two components beyond an hour or so. Usually much less time than that. Your timeframes are ludicrous.

Now you tell me what you learned from your personal experience participating in DBTs.
Your evidence for this?
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post #60 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 12:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jsrtheta View Post
Theta Data Basic
Theta Data Basic II
Theta Pearl
PS Audio Lambda II, IIse
CEC TL-1
Parasound C/DB 2000
Rega Jupiter
Rotel RDD-980
Audio Alchemy I (I forget the exact model number, but their first, two-box transport)
Audio Alchemy II (Same, but a one box design, Sony mechanism)
Museatex CDD (two of them)
Parasound CD player & Parasound CD changer
Marantz CD-63SE
EAD T-1000
Audiolab CDM

That's all I can remember offhand.
That's a lot of really ancient digital components. That list takes me down memory lane to the days when everything digital sounded lousy, bad, or worse than bad. I gave up on trying to use digital as my reference during that time. I have a closet full of players that I tried to live with in a vain attempt to replace vinyl.

Back then there were several fine transports available but, unfortunately, DAC technology still had a long way to go.

I do not understand how the far smoother Parasound C/DP-1000 (you left out the model number above but I know it because I still own one) sounded the same to you as the Marantz CD-63SE.

Consider comparing current players and DACs back to back (i.e., quickly switching from one to another). Then, hopefully, your ears will hear the obvious sonic differences.
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