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post #61 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
Subjective and blind testing do not necessarily provide the same information.

I have discussed many times over the years here at AVS, learned through experience, what one learns from DBTs and how limited they are in determining overall sound quality of a component. To explain briefly:

Long-term listening, particularly at home over weeks and months, brings out every part of a given component's attributes and deficiencies, from the significant to the subtle.

When you put two components into a DBT (or any other type of blind test) an experienced participant will usually look for a single sonic parameter to differentiate Component A from Component B. Once that individual parameter is found, it becomes rather easy to determine which component is which. Unfortunately, the blind test will not tell you what that product (amplifier, CD player, DAC, etc.) sounds like in its entirety. Hence the limited value of blind testing.
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Well, you've convinced us how you would do a DBT. Not particularly persuasive otherwise.
Your experience in DBTs differs in what way? What method do you use during blind tests?

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post #62 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 12:57 PM
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This one any good?

https://www.burmester.de/en/home-aud...cd-player.html

Is it going to sound $49,451.00 better than my Oppo 203? Not including tax of course....
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post #63 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
Nobody participates in a properly conducted DBT comparing two components beyond an hour or so. Usually much less time than that. Your timeframes are ludicrous.
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Your evidence for this?
Really? Are we still talking about double-blind testing of components here?

It is a routine procedure that does not take very long.

Like Post 53 above, are you saying a DBT participant sits down in a chair and listens to two different components nonstop for a month or a year while another person switches back and forth between the products?

How long did it take for you or other persons you watched to complete a DBT?

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post #64 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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what's dbt?

Onkyo RZ710 / Wharfedale Atlantic AT-500 Fronts / Wharfedale Xarus Rears and Wharfedale EVOLUTION 2 Centre Speaker / Wharfedale Diamond SW150 Sub x 2/ WD Media Player / LG BD player / PS4
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post #65 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 02:07 PM
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what's dbt?
Double-Blind Test

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post #66 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
Nobody participates in a properly conducted DBT comparing two components beyond an hour or so. Usually much less time than that. Your timeframes are ludicrous.

Now you tell me what you learned from your personal experience participating in DBTs.
No, it is not ludicrous. Just because no one has exceeded an hour, or you just cannot think of one that has, is not an indication it cannot go on for however long you want.
I have no need to participate in a DBT and that does not prevents me from participating here nor taking testable claims and protocols to task, like yours.
Be happy with your process.
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post #67 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
It is a routine procedure that does not take very long.

Like Post 53 above, are you saying a DBT participant sits down in a chair and listens to two different components nonstop for a month or a year while another person switches back and forth between the products?

How long did it take for you or other persons you watched to complete a DBT?
Now this is ludicrous. You listen as long as you want, eat, sleep, come back or not and give up. You don't need to sit continuously. What a silly thought that you would need to. You can live with it as long as you want.

And, if you have a component you fully know its characteristics, why would it take longer than an hour or two to differentiate an unknown component? It should be obvious right off the bat which component you lived with and the new one; Of course if there is no difference, you can make excuses that you need to live with that too.
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post #68 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 04:54 PM
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Unfortunately, loudspeakers can sound only as good as what is fed to them. ..
This would imply that a good recording will sound the same on all speakers? Or, would a bad speaker reproduce a bad recording the same as a great speaker? Curious.
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post #69 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 08:11 PM
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No, it is not ludicrous. Just because no one has exceeded an hour, or you just cannot think of one that has, is not an indication it cannot go on for however long you want.
I have no need to participate in a DBT and that does not prevents me from participating here nor taking testable claims and protocols to task, like yours.
Be happy with your process.
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Now this is ludicrous. You listen as long as you want, eat, sleep, come back or not and give up. You don't need to sit continuously. What a silly thought that you would need to. You can live with it as long as you want.

And, if you have a component you fully know its characteristics, why would it take longer than an hour or two to differentiate an unknown component? It should be obvious right off the bat which component you lived with and the new one; Of course if there is no difference, you can make excuses that you need to live with that too.
I am sorry, Charles, but you have no understanding of how a DBT is done or what information it provides. What you describe is some weird kind of test that has nothing to do with DBTs. I thought I was having a serious discussion but this is too bizarre to continue.

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post #70 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
Unfortunately, loudspeakers can sound only as good as what is fed to them.
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This would imply that a good recording will sound the same on all speakers? Or, would a bad speaker reproduce a bad recording the same as a great speaker? Curious.
I have no idea how you could have thought that I implied a good recording will sound the same on all loudspeakers. All speakers would have to sound the same for that to be true.

Quite simply the better the sound quality of a recording and the components in an audio system, the better the sound delivered by the speakers in that system (this assumes the speakers are reasonably decent).

Good night.

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post #71 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 11:37 PM
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I am sorry, Charles, but you have no understanding of how a DBT is done or what information it provides. What you describe is some weird kind of test that has nothing to do with DBTs. I thought I was having a serious discussion but this is too bizarre to continue.
You know, there have been consumer models of ABX machines. It's really not a new thing. If we were on a different forum (where, btw, you would not last very long, since unsupported claims get you bounced), you would not only be able to chat with one of the inventors of the ABX machine, who has about 40 years of experience with dbts, they even have a whole separate forum for listening tests. You would learn a lot.

In accusing Charles of not understanding dbts, you have only proven your own ignorance. Numerous tests (such as Archimago's, for the latest I know of) are done with the proviso that the subjects may take as long as they like - weeks, even. Heck, read the back issues of The Audio Critic. Peter Aczel certainly covered ABX and dbts starting at least 20 years ago. That's a good place to start. Or check out the AES website.

Take a stroll over to Hydrogen Audio and check out the listening tests forum. Post, even. In fact, I encourage it. Just let me know when you do.
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post #72 of 87 Old 03-19-2018, 11:49 PM
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That's a lot of really ancient digital components. That list takes me down memory lane to the days when everything digital sounded lousy, bad, or worse than bad. I gave up on trying to use digital as my reference during that time. I have a closet full of players that I tried to live with in a vain attempt to replace vinyl.

Back then there were several fine transports available but, unfortunately, DAC technology still had a long way to go.

I do not understand how the far smoother Parasound C/DP-1000 (you left out the model number above but I know it because I still own one) sounded the same to you as the Marantz CD-63SE.

Consider comparing current players and DACs back to back (i.e., quickly switching from one to another). Then, hopefully, your ears will hear the obvious sonic differences.
They sounded the same, and they still would. And DACs don't sound any different, either. Though the tools at Stereophile and TAS sure argued for "dramatic" differences between transports and DACs ("And the difference isn't subtle!" How many times has that BS appeared in the audio woo press?) I remember the very last comparison I did: Theta DS Pro Gen Va vs. bottom-of-the-line PS Audio DL3. Fortunately, I sold the Theta the next day and pocketed a nice profit, too. The Theta went for, what, $5K with the bells and whistles? The DL3 cost about $750.00. And no difference. Oh, I'm sure the folks at Theta heard a difference. But then, they didn't do a dbt.

You have a classic case of audiophile-itis. You have drunk the Kool Aid.
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post #73 of 87 Old 03-20-2018, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jsrtheta View Post
You know, there have been consumer models of ABX machines. It's really not a new thing. If we were on a different forum (where, btw, you would not last very long, since unsupported claims get you bounced), you would not only be able to chat with one of the inventors of the ABX machine, who has about 40 years of experience with dbts, they even have a whole separate forum for listening tests. You would learn a lot.

In accusing Charles of not understanding dbts, you have only proven your own ignorance. Numerous tests (such as Archimago's, for the latest I know of) are done with the proviso that the subjects may take as long as they like - weeks, even. Heck, read the back issues of The Audio Critic. Peter Aczel certainly covered ABX and dbts starting at least 20 years ago. That's a good place to start. Or check out the AES website.

Take a stroll over to Hydrogen Audio and check out the listening tests forum. Post, even. In fact, I encourage it. Just let me know when you do.
A DBT of two components by one participant cannot possibly take weeks unless that person is taking the same test of the same components over and over and over and over...

When a manufacturer, for instance, sets up a DBT or ABX test in-house or hires a professional firm, it never takes weeks. A participant sits down, listens to the test music until he or she feels they are familiar with (1) the recording(s), (2) the components and loudspeakers being used to establish familiarity with the recording(s), and (3) the acoustics of the test room. Then the switching between components takes place. The process for one person or a small group of people sitting together usually takes about an hour or less from start to finish. Weeks? Weeks?

The few people who, unfortunately, do not have the ability to hear differences between components always bring up the late Peter Aczel. You should have mentioned the other parts of the extremist trio, the late Julian Hirsch and the late Tom Nousaine, as well.

If DACs all sound the same to you, I do not understand why you spent thousands of dollars for the Theta when a far less costly DAC would have performed as well to your ears. You should have first made comparisons at home. I borrow components from dealers who permit trials and compare them at home. Or I purchase them via mailorder and make a return, if I do not like them, before the refund period expires. That is how I learned a far lower cost Tascam ($250) and a Yamaha ($479) outperformed a Marantz SA8500 ($1200) CD player. I began with the Marantz, found sonic deficiencies, and tried other players while retaining the Marantz for comparisons.

I find it amusing that you question my intelligence when you are the one who forked over $5000 for a DAC that was not refundable.

PS: I don't drink Kool-Aid.

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post #74 of 87 Old 03-20-2018, 03:36 PM
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A DBT of two components by one participant cannot possibly take weeks unless that person is taking the same test of the same components over and over and over and over...

When a manufacturer, for instance, sets up a DBT or ABX test in-house or hires a professional firm, it never takes weeks. A participant sits down, listens to the test music until he or she feels they are familiar with (1) the recording(s), (2) the components and loudspeakers being used to establish familiarity with the recording(s), and (3) the acoustics of the test room. Then the switching between components takes place. The process for one person or a small group of people sitting together usually takes about an hour or less from start to finish. Weeks? Weeks?

The few people who, unfortunately, do not have the ability to hear differences between components always bring up the late Peter Aczel. You should have mentioned the other parts of the extremist trio, the late Julian Hirsch and the late Tom Nousaine, as well.

If DACs all sound the same to you, I do not understand why you spent thousands of dollars for the Theta when a far less costly DAC would have performed as well to your ears. You should have first made comparisons at home. I borrow components from dealers who permit trials and compare them at home. Or I purchase them via mailorder and make a return, if I do not like them, before the refund period expires. That is how I learned a far lower cost Tascam ($250) and a Yamaha ($479) outperformed a Marantz SA8500 ($1200) CD player. I began with the Marantz, found sonic deficiencies, and tried other players while retaining the Marantz for comparisons.

I find it amusing that you question my intelligence when you are the one who forked over $5000 for a DAC that was not refundable.

PS: I don't drink Kool-Aid.
Ah, you assume so much. Did I say I paid $5K for the DAC? No, I did not. I paid $400 for it, and sold it for $1100. Though I see people pay lots for this particular placebo on eBay. Oh, and I do my comparisons at home when I do them. Take my time, too.

Funny how you call Hirsch, Aczel and Nousaine "extremists." I have never heard people who rely on proven scientific methods extremists, except by climate change denialists and evangelicals.

Do you think only manufacturers do ABX tests? Silly wabbit. Why, there are three names mentioned right above, none of them manufacturers. I'll add a couple more: Arny Krueger and David Rich. You may not have heard of them, because they actually work professionally in audio. But, whatever. Tell you what: Head over to Hydrogen Audio and join in on the listening tests forum. You really might learn something.

Apparently you once read an article about ABX testing, and now you're an expert. Doesn't work that way, sorry.
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post #75 of 87 Old 03-20-2018, 04:06 PM
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This one any good?

https://www.burmester.de/en/home-aud...cd-player.html

Is it going to sound $49,451.00 better than my Oppo 203? Not including tax of course....
Beautiful spinner
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post #76 of 87 Old 03-20-2018, 05:31 PM
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A DBT of two components by one participant cannot possibly take weeks unless that person is taking the same test of the same components over and over and over and over...

....
And also by you Long-term listening, particularly at home over weeks and months, brings out every part of a given component's attributes and deficiencies, from the significant to the subtle.

There you go, do it in the blind, dbt. Oh, wait, you may not like the answers.
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post #77 of 87 Old 03-20-2018, 05:39 PM
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Beautiful spinner
It really is! I've seen one up close and personal, though I'm afraid to touch it since it's worth more than my entire system....

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post #78 of 87 Old 03-20-2018, 06:21 PM
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Ah, you assume so much. Did I say I paid $5K for the DAC? No, I did not. I paid $400 for it, and sold it for $1100. Though I see people pay lots for this particular placebo on eBay. Oh, and I do my comparisons at home when I do them. Take my time, too.

Funny how you call Hirsch, Aczel and Nousaine "extremists." I have never heard people who rely on proven scientific methods extremists, except by climate change denialists and evangelicals.

Do you think only manufacturers do ABX tests? Silly wabbit. Why, there are three names mentioned right above, none of them manufacturers. I'll add a couple more: Arny Krueger and David Rich. You may not have heard of them, because they actually work professionally in audio. But, whatever. Tell you what: Head over to Hydrogen Audio and join in on the listening tests forum. You really might learn something.

Apparently you once read an article about ABX testing, and now you're an expert. Doesn't work that way, sorry.

Your initially stating what a component costs retail and not saying what you actually had paid was misleading.

Since all DACs and transports sound the same to your ears, you could have purchased a cheap CD player instead of the PS Audio DAC. But you didn't make clear if you paid $750 or much less for it, so who knows. When your unnamed transport or PS Audio DAC dies you won't have to spend more than about $150 for an all-in-one CD player that sounds just as good to you.

This may come as a shock, but component manufacturers that arrange private blind testing do so precisely because the tests do indicate audible differences. They would not bother investing the time and expense of such testing if the results always showed no differences. The engineers want to know what sonic parameters are most obvious to participants and what deficiencies must be improved. Sometimes the blind testing helps. Those tested typically include company staff, invitees, and the engineers themselves. You should attend at least one or two because, in your language, "You really might learn something."

I wish the recently late Charles Hansen, founder of Ayre Acoustics, was still here on AVS to explain his firm's use of blind testing. Feel free to do a search of his posts on the subject. "You really might learn something."

Instead of understanding their hearing limitations, Hirsch and, most particularly, Aczel and Nousaine futilely tried to push an ideology based on their own pseudoscience. It failed and all that remains are a few folks who still cling to various versions of "All [fill in the blank] sound the same."

On the other hand, since all iterations of blind testing are of such great interest to hobbyists worldwide and the tests provide such a wealth of valuable information, you should subscribe to the highly popular magazine devoted to the subject at www.itdoesnotexist.com.

You want real science? Visit with audio engineering teams and inquire about their research projects and the audio components they are spending countless hours developing. Also, ask if you could participate in their next blind tests. "You really might learn something."

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Theater room: Panasonic 65S60 plasma television; Yamaha RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.

Last edited by Alex F.; 03-20-2018 at 07:27 PM.
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post #79 of 87 Old 03-20-2018, 07:11 PM
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And also by you Long-term listening, particularly at home over weeks and months, brings out every part of a given component's attributes and deficiencies, from the significant to the subtle.

There you go, do it in the blind, dbt. Oh, wait, you may not like the answers.
What answers did you obtain with your own DBTs?

Oh, wait, like the very few other devotees here, DBTs are for others to use, but not you or them. DBTs are so useful to you and those others that AVS is filled with blind tests of today's components. There are so many such tests here that I must find almost an entire second to read them all. It is all talk but no action. Talk, talk, talk.

Where are your comparison tests, subjective or blind, of components you have evaluated?
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Theater room: Panasonic 65S60 plasma television; Yamaha RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.
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post #80 of 87 Old 03-20-2018, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
What answers did you obtain with your own DBTs?

Oh, wait, like the very few other devotees here, DBTs are for others to use, but not you or them. DBTs are so useful to you and those others that AVS is filled with blind tests of today's components. There are so many such tests here that I must find almost an entire second to read them all. It is all talk but no action. Talk, talk, talk.

Where are your comparison tests, subjective or blind, of components you have evaluated?
You are the one who seems to anguish over differences so it is for you to perform and show evidence. I may not even have a system, maybe just a boombox?
But, if I were to buy, it be on specs and capabilities to meet my needs. Simple. No anguish, no need for dbt.

Oh, as to those company dbts, why would anyone believe they are credible? Oh, wait, you believe them. Enjoy your adventure.
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post #81 of 87 Old 03-20-2018, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
You are the one who seems to anguish over differences so it is for you to perform and show evidence. I may not even have a system, maybe just a boombox?
But, if I were to buy, it be on specs and capabilities to meet my needs. Simple. No anguish, no need for dbt.

Oh, as to those company dbts, why would anyone believe they are credible? Oh, wait, you believe them. Enjoy your adventure.
As I said earlier, all talk, no action. Stop wasting my time. We are done.

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Theater room: Panasonic 65S60 plasma television; Yamaha RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.
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post #82 of 87 Old 03-21-2018, 07:00 AM
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I don't think this thread is going anywhere useful at this point.....
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post #83 of 87 Old 03-21-2018, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by xcrossover View Post
would i get a better sound output playing music CD's from a CD player like an Onkyo DX-C390 vs an LG BMD Bluray player assuming both are plugged in via an opt or coax cable?

thanks
No.

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post #84 of 87 Old 04-20-2018, 10:52 AM
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No.
Well crap, why didn't you say so sooner?
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post #85 of 87 Old 04-24-2018, 09:44 PM
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I have to some what disagree . it begins with the media then source ,amp .... speakers make or break any good setup but if its not good in the first place its still bad no matter what you use for speakers
That is a very very common argument I see, but let me say as a loudspeaker design engineer that it lacks understanding about the relative inaccuracies along the reproduction chain, and distribution of a budget across components. Players (all but the junkiest disc or vinyl) are reasonably accurate. Amplifiers even more so. Speakers by contrast are GROSSLY inaccurate.

So while there are differences between source players, and amps, they absolutely pale in comparison to the huge differences between different models of speakers. The "source is king" argument would imply most of the budget should be spent on a great player and amp, leaving one with the cheapest speakers, whose faults will be far larger than less expensive players and amps. To get the best sound overall from a modest budget, the bulk should go to the speakers. (This is ignoring if certain features are "must" like multi-room zones, Atmos, SACD/DVD-A capability, etc etc which can raise the budget amount needed for the hardware).
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post #86 of 87 Old 04-24-2018, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by xcrossover View Post
would i get a better sound output playing music CD's from a CD player like an Onkyo DX-C390 vs an LG BMD Bluray player assuming both are plugged in via an opt or coax cable?
No.
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post #87 of 87 Old 04-25-2018, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by head_unit View Post
That is a very very common argument I see, but let me say as a loudspeaker design engineer that it lacks understanding about the relative inaccuracies along the reproduction chain, and distribution of a budget across components. Players (all but the junkiest disc or vinyl) are reasonably accurate. Amplifiers even more so. Speakers by contrast are GROSSLY inaccurate.

So while there are differences between source players, and amps, they absolutely pale in comparison to the huge differences between different models of speakers. The "source is king" argument would imply most of the budget should be spent on a great player and amp, leaving one with the cheapest speakers, whose faults will be far larger than less expensive players and amps. To get the best sound overall from a modest budget, the bulk should go to the speakers. (This is ignoring if certain features are "must" like multi-room zones, Atmos, SACD/DVD-A capability, etc etc which can raise the budget amount needed for the hardware).
Couldn't agree more. My budget was about 65% speakers. Always should be.

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