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post #1 of 87 Old 03-15-2018, 02:52 AM - Thread Starter
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dedicated cd player vs a bluray player

would i get a better sound output playing music CD's from a CD player like an Onkyo DX-C390 vs an LG BMD Bluray player assuming both are plugged in via an opt or coax cable?

thanks
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post #2 of 87 Old 03-15-2018, 03:07 AM
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BITS ARE BITS...no Diff....D/A is in the AVR or AMP...
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post #3 of 87 Old 03-15-2018, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by xcrossover View Post
would i get a better sound output playing music CD's from a CD player like an Onkyo DX-C390 vs an LG BMD Bluray player assuming both are plugged in via an opt or coax cable?

thanks
What @holl_ands said.
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post #4 of 87 Old 03-15-2018, 01:15 PM
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I wonder how many people who say "bits are bits" have actually compared multiple players and/or transports in a good audio system using reference-quality CDs. Doing so shows there can be significant audible differences.

As for Blu-ray players, I have found that recent Samsung models are sonically much smoother (among other differences) than recent Sony players. Here is a link to comparisons conducted with my theater-room system shown below (see Post 3):

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-...l#post55537122

In another example of transport differences, an inexpensive Tascam CD player, the CD-200 ($250), outperformed a costlier Marantz CD6006 ($500) that I tested in my music-room system. Here is a link (see Post 15):

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-...l#post55187756

I will note that I have an Onkyo DX-7555 ($599) CD player (purchased about eight years ago), which is from their audiophile line. The Onkyo was my reference player until last summer, when I began a search to see if a better sounding player was available at a nonexorbitant price. The Tascam and a Yamaha CD-N500 both outperformed the Onkyo via both analog and digital coaxial outputs. I no longer use the Onkyo.

The Onkyo DX-C390 offers a lot of features, including the convenience of a six-disc changer, at an incredibly low price ($130). You could try one for 60 days from the trusty folks at Crutchfield and compare it to your LG Blu-ray player. If you are not sufficiently satisfied with the sound quality of either the Onkyo or LG, the Tascam CD-200 awaits as an affordable and excellent-sounding option. Amazon and B&H carry the Tascam.

Happy listening!

Edit: Checking Amazon and B&H a minute ago, the Tascam CD-200 is currently priced at $230 with free shipping.
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post #5 of 87 Old 03-16-2018, 03:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
I wonder how many people who say "bits are bits" have actually compared multiple players and/or transports in a good audio system using reference-quality CDs. Doing so shows there can be significant audible differences.

As for Blu-ray players, I have found that recent Samsung models are sonically much smoother (among other differences) than recent Sony players. Here is a link to comparisons conducted with my theater-room system shown below (see Post 3):

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-...l#post55537122

In another example of transport differences, an inexpensive Tascam CD player, the CD-200 ($250), outperformed a costlier Marantz CD6006 ($500) that I tested in my music-room system. Here is a link (see Post 15):

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-...l#post55187756

I will note that I have an Onkyo DX-7555 ($599) CD player (purchased about eight years ago), which is from their audiophile line. The Onkyo was my reference player until last summer, when I began a search to see if a better sounding player was available at a nonexorbitant price. The Tascam and a Yamaha CD-N500 both outperformed the Onkyo via both analog and digital coaxial outputs. I no longer use the Onkyo.

The Onkyo DX-C390 offers a lot of features, including the convenience of a six-disc changer, at an incredibly low price ($130). You could try one for 60 days from the trusty folks at Crutchfield and compare it to your LG Blu-ray player. If you are not sufficiently satisfied with the sound quality of either the Onkyo or LG, the Tascam CD-200 awaits as an affordable and excellent-sounding option. Amazon and B&H carry the Tascam.

Happy listening!

Edit: Checking Amazon and B&H a minute ago, the Tascam CD-200 is currently priced at $230 with free shipping.

still awfully a lot of money for a cd player... where i am this tascam is expensive https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tascam-C...MAAOSwKQ9aS0Zv
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post #6 of 87 Old 03-16-2018, 04:27 AM
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A dedicated CD player will have better parts in comparison to a cheap Blu-Ray player.
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Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post
A dedicated CD player will have better parts in comparison to a cheap Blu-Ray player.
Which model CD player would that be?
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post #8 of 87 Old 03-16-2018, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
I wonder how many people who say "bits are bits" have actually compared multiple players and/or transports in a good audio system using reference-quality CDs.
I wonder how many people who say “bits are bits” have equipment of your caliber!


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A dedicated CD player will have better parts in comparison to a cheap Blu-Ray player.
At the very least, most likely a more substantial transport (drawer/ loading mechanism).

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post #9 of 87 Old 03-16-2018, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by xcrossover View Post
still awfully a lot of money for a cd player... where i am this tascam is expensive https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Tascam-C...MAAOSwKQ9aS0Zv
You did not indicate you are in Australia. That is a different, more expensive version of the CD-200. The basic version I discussed retails for $600 in Australia, which is still a lot more than here in the USA. It is a shame the Tascam CD players cost so much more by you.

Are Yamaha CD players, such as the CD-S300 ($300 US) and CD-C600 changer ($330 US), priced reasonably in Australia? I have not auditioned either player but they are worth a look.
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At the very least, most likely a more substantial transport (drawer/ loading mechanism).
But the question is, how do those drawer/ loading mechanism translate to sound quality of the player?
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post #11 of 87 Old 03-16-2018, 05:28 PM
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The oppo 205 has a really good DAC in it.

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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
BITS ARE BITS...no Diff....D/A is in the AVR or AMP...
Amps dont do D/A. "Bits" are bits but "Bits" don't play back as audio. You need something called a DAC. You can digital out to the AVR and let its DAC decode the stream or you can use the player's built in DAC. The quality difference will be in some of this process and in this case, bits are not "just bits". Not to mention that CD Audio doesn't really have error correction so reading those bits off the disk may be inaccurate.

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post #13 of 87 Old 03-16-2018, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Amps dont do D/A. "Bits" are bits but "Bits" don't play back as audio. You need something called a DAC. You can digital out to the AVR and let its DAC decode the stream or you can use the player's built in DAC. The quality difference will be in some of this process and in this case, bits are not "just bits". Not to mention that CD Audio doesn't really have error correction so reading those bits off the disk may be inaccurate.
Of course CD has error correction. Otherwise discs would have a lot of problems they don't have, because of error correction.

And yes, bits are bits! That is the whole point. So either the DAC is properly converting or not. A DAC either gets it right or it doesn't. And the DAC
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post #14 of 87 Old 03-16-2018, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jsrtheta View Post
Of course CD has error correction. Otherwise discs would have a lot of problems they don't have, because of error correction.

And yes, bits are bits! That is the whole point. So either the DAC is properly converting or not. A DAC either gets it right or it doesn't. And the DAC
(Sorry - hit the wrong key)...anyway, the DAC in a blu-ray or the DAC in an Oppo are going to do the same thing unless they're broken. They're going to decode the 1s and 0s. You can spend all the money you want, and you can't make the 1s more 1-ish or the 0s more 0-ish.

Just how will bits not be bits? This is a medium that either works or doesn't.
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You can spend all the money you want, and you can't make the 1s more 1-ish or the 0s more 0-ish.
Good one!
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post #16 of 87 Old 03-16-2018, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jsrtheta View Post
Of course CD has error correction. Otherwise discs would have a lot of problems they don't have, because of error correction.

And yes, bits are bits! That is the whole point. So either the DAC is properly converting or not. A DAC either gets it right or it doesn't. And the DAC
They do have lots of problems. Look up jitter.

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Originally Posted by jsrtheta View Post
(Sorry - hit the wrong key)...anyway, the DAC in a blu-ray or the DAC in an Oppo are going to do the same thing unless they're broken. They're going to decode the 1s and 0s. You can spend all the money you want, and you can't make the 1s more 1-ish or the 0s more 0-ish.

Just how will bits not be bits? This is a medium that either works or doesn't.
Yea unfortunately you don't understand how it works so your best bet would be to research it a bit rather than try to argue it because the more you argue it the more you show you're not versed in how CDDA works.

Redbook CDDA uses mode2 2352 bytes/sector on the disk. PC Data uses 2048 bytes/sector on the disk and the rest is used for error correction. Unlike the PC data, the CDDA utilizes the rest of the sectors that the PC data uses for error correction to store more audio data instead. The CDDA does have some C2 error *detection* but no way to correct it. The thinking is that if audio is being streamed and a bit or two or more are off, you generally cannot hear it so there is no error correction on CDDA instead it utilizes more sectors to cram more audio data onto the disk. Read up on what jitter is and how it is caused. Almost no CD media can be read perfectly every time. Your better audio rippers will read the track several times and try to get the best read. Again, this is all because there is no error correction. So yea, it does not either work or not, bits are not just bits in this case, and the medium does not either work or not.

As far as DACs, your uneducated stance is that all DAC chips "are going to do the same thing". There's too much data to type in here to explain how this works so I just am going to suggest you go educate yourself on how digital audio encoding and decoding actually works. Once you understand the process you may understand why different DACs can produce different results and they are not all the same. Digital audio is momentary samples of a moving sound wave. The higher the frequencies, the less samples per second are stored as momentary dots. The DAC has to connect these dots into the original analog wav form. It's a very complicated process and that is why there are so many different DACs and how some are known to be better than others.

Look, its perfectly fine if you don't understand any of this stuff. But in that case it's best to not argue it.

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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
Good one!
It is a "good one". Unfortunately, it was wrong. Lol

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post #17 of 87 Old 03-17-2018, 01:00 AM
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OP specifically asked about DIGITAL AUDIO Input from CD vs BD-Player.....and you'all have jumped off the Tracks and started talking about the obvious differences in D/A Converter Outputs (Analog I/F)....which are NOT APPLICABLE to the original question....and are no longer within the scope of BITS ARE BITS.....
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hahaha Hi All,

appreciate the passion and commitment in this. I am guessing real world stuff (90s cd player vs bluray player) i wont hear much of a diff in sound quality as i am running the two channel stereo in an AVR not a dedicated stereo system. Plus im sure my speakers are more geared for HT that music itself. i was just wondering if there was a difference in tone as i noticed in ebay there's a lot of 90's early 2000s dedicated CD players going cheap. Some of which were carousel which caught my eye and i thought why not ask the experts opinion.


happy to listen to more argument just keep in clean :-)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex F. View Post
You did not indicate you are in Australia. That is a different, more expensive version of the CD-200. The basic version I discussed retails for $600 in Australia, which is still a lot more than here in the USA. It is a shame the Tascam CD players cost so much more by you.

Are Yamaha CD players, such as the CD-S300 ($300 US) and CD-C600 changer ($330 US), priced reasonably in Australia? I have not auditioned either player but they are worth a look.
i only got interested in this when i realised that dedicated CD players were available still. i thought they got phased out when DVD players came out. hahaha

Im only interested in secondhand as i dont think i'd fork out that much for a player.

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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
They do have lots of problems. Look up jitter.
What audible problem is there?

Quote:
Yea unfortunately you don't understand how it works so your best bet would be to research it a bit rather than try to argue it because the more you argue it the more you show you're not versed in how CDDA work.

Redbook CDDA uses mode2 2352 bytes/sector on the disk. PC Data uses 2048 bytes/sector on the disk and the rest is used for error correction. Unlike the PC data, the CDDA utilizes the rest of the sectors that the PC data uses for error correction to store more audio data instead. The CDDA does have some C2 error *detection* but no way to correct it. The thinking is that if audio is being streamed and a bit or two or more are off, you generally cannot hear it so there is no error correction on CDDA instead it utilizes more sectors to cram more audio data onto the disk. Read up on what jitter is and how it is caused. Almost no CD media can be read perfectly every time. Your better audio rippers will read the track several times and try to get the best read. Again, this is all because there is no error correction. So yea, it does not either work or not, bits are not just bits in this case, and the medium does not either work or not.

As far as DACs, your uneducated stance is that all DAC chips "are going to do the same thing". There's too much data to type in here to explain how this works so I just am going to suggest you go educate yourself on how digital audio encoding and decoding actually works. Once you understand the process you may understand why different DACs can produce different results and they are not all the same. Digital audio is momentary samples of a moving sound wave. The higher the frequencies, the less samples per second are stored as momentary dots. The DAC has to connect these dots into the original analog wav form. It's a very complicated process and that is why there are so many different DACs and how some are known to be better than others.

Look, its perfectly fine if you don't understand any of this stuff. But in that case it's best to not argue it.


It is a "good one". Unfortunately, it was wrong. Lol
But the important question is, how do all these translate to sound quality of the player?
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If you already have the Blu-ray player, stay with that. I have doubts you will get any sort of increase in audio quality by purchasing an old, used CD player, especially if you are using it just as a transport.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcrossover View Post
hahaha Hi All,

appreciate the passion and commitment in this. I am guessing real world stuff(90s cd player vs bluray player) i wont hear much of a diff in sound quality as i am running the two channel stereo in an AVR not a dedicated stereo system. Plus im sure my speakers are more geared for HT that music itself. i was just wondering if there was a difference in tone as i noticed in ebay there's a lot of 90's early 2000s dedicated CD players going cheap. Some of which were carousel which caught my eye and i thought why not ask the experts opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xcrossover View Post

Im only interested in secondhand as i dont think i'd fork out that much for a player.
I am not laughing. It would have been useful if you stated the above earlier. Instead you wasted a lot of my time.

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Theater room: Panasonic 65S60 plasma television; Yamaha RX-A2020 (preamp section); Adcom GFA-5503 and GFA-5400 amplifiers; Polk LSi25, LSiC, and LSiF/X loudspeaker system; Velodyne FSR-18 servo-subwoofer.
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post #23 of 87 Old 03-17-2018, 03:43 PM
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Good one!
I stole it.
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post #24 of 87 Old 03-17-2018, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
They do have lots of problems. Look up jitter.



Yea unfortunately you don't understand how it works so your best bet would be to research it a bit rather than try to argue it because the more you argue it the more you show you're not versed in how CDDA works.

Redbook CDDA uses mode2 2352 bytes/sector on the disk. PC Data uses 2048 bytes/sector on the disk and the rest is used for error correction. Unlike the PC data, the CDDA utilizes the rest of the sectors that the PC data uses for error correction to store more audio data instead. The CDDA does have some C2 error *detection* but no way to correct it. The thinking is that if audio is being streamed and a bit or two or more are off, you generally cannot hear it so there is no error correction on CDDA instead it utilizes more sectors to cram more audio data onto the disk. Read up on what jitter is and how it is caused. Almost no CD media can be read perfectly every time. Your better audio rippers will read the track several times and try to get the best read. Again, this is all because there is no error correction. So yea, it does not either work or not, bits are not just bits in this case, and the medium does not either work or not.

As far as DACs, your uneducated stance is that all DAC chips "are going to do the same thing". There's too much data to type in here to explain how this works so I just am going to suggest you go educate yourself on how digital audio encoding and decoding actually works. Once you understand the process you may understand why different DACs can produce different results and they are not all the same. Digital audio is momentary samples of a moving sound wave. The higher the frequencies, the less samples per second are stored as momentary dots. The DAC has to connect these dots into the original analog wav form. It's a very complicated process and that is why there are so many different DACs and how some are known to be better than others.

Look, its perfectly fine if you don't understand any of this stuff. But in that case it's best to not argue it.


It is a "good one". Unfortunately, it was wrong. Lol
The ad hominem doesn't look good on you. Which might be forgivable had you not demonstrated a marked ability to use a lot of words without saying anything. You toss out "jitter," without explaining that jitter is almost always inaudible. I for one have seen no DBTs where anyone has been able to audibly detect it on program material. Your argument might have been persuasive ca. 1995, when people who sound a lot like you ran around with their hair on fire over jitter. It isn't now, because we know better. Although I use that "we" advisedly and rhetorically.

You were asked how all your claims relate to sound quality. You haven't responded to that, which is the relevant question, and not your purported superior knowledge.
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post #25 of 87 Old 03-17-2018, 04:01 PM
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LOL... Not all bits are equal, some are more significant than others.
If an LSB is flipped nobody cares, but if a MSB is flipped your tweeter will explode (or it will sound like a sharp tick or a screech... you'll notice it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

That said...
CD's came out in the 80's. Do people still use them?
You need to save that stuff to flac on a SSD with raid 1 before your CD's become full of scratches, UV damaged and/or get plastic-eating bacteria.
Time to upgrade the computer/sound system me thinks!

Besides, who wants to listen to skipping every time the bass hits hard?
My 2018 computer has no moving parts. Not a single spinning object to be found. I only wish projectors were quiet/fanless...

As time passes 700mb without error correction and redudancy is gonna feel like this:

(Hint: It already does... )
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post #26 of 87 Old 03-17-2018, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
LOL... Not all bits are equal, some are more significant than others.
If an LSB is flipped nobody cares, but if a MSB is flipped your tweeter will explode (or it will sound like a sharp tick or a screech... you'll notice it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

That said...
CD's came out in the 80's. Do people still use them?
You need to save that stuff to flac on a SSD with raid 1 before your CD's become full of scratches, UV damaged and/or get plastic-eating bacteria.
Time to upgrade the computer/sound system me thinks!

Besides, who wants to listen to skipping every time the bass hits hard?
My 2018 computer has no moving parts. Not a single spinning object to be found. I only wish projectors were quiet/fanless...

As time passes 700mb without error correction and redudancy is gonna feel like this:

(Hint: It already does... )
My CDs from the '80s play fine. And I never heard a CD player "skip" from bass "hitting hard."

You wanna save ca. 2500 CDs to flac? Let me know when you can stop by. Me, I don't have the time!
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post #27 of 87 Old 03-17-2018, 05:10 PM
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OP specifically asked about DIGITAL AUDIO Input from CD vs BD-Player.....and you'all have jumped off the Tracks and started talking about the obvious differences in D/A Converter Outputs (Analog I/F)....which are NOT APPLICABLE to the original question....and are no longer within the scope of BITS ARE BITS.....
Actually not at all. The OP asked about digital audio input from CD player vs BD Player, and the answer is it depends on the DAC used in each device. You were the one that started with BITS ARE BITS BS, which is false when it comes to extracting non-error corrected data off of a disk. Correcting incorrect statements that are misleading is not off topic.


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The ad hominem doesn't look good on you. Which might be forgivable had you not demonstrated a marked ability to use a lot of words without saying anything. You toss out "jitter," without explaining that jitter is almost always inaudible. I for one have seen no DBTs where anyone has been able to audibly detect it on program material. Your argument might have been persuasive ca. 1995, when people who sound a lot like you ran around with their hair on fire over jitter. It isn't now, because we know better. Although I use that "we" advisedly and rhetorically.

You were asked how all your claims relate to sound quality. You haven't responded to that, which is the relevant question, and not your purported superior knowledge.
I'm not interested in convincing you further. I gave you several things to research and educate yourself. Do so or don't do so it's up to you. You have outright stated several things that were wrong and had to be corrected. You stated outright that CD audio has error correction. It does not. You stated bits are bits. Since the process of ripping the non-error corrected bits off of a disk is difficult, it proves bits are not just bits in this case. You have outright stated all DACs are the same or they wouldn't work, which is known to also be false. There's plenty of research on this material go research it yourself. I am not going to go into a tirade on how audible jitter is or isn't here. It's not relevant. Obviously the more inaccurate the non-error corrected stream is read off the CD, the more audible this becomes. As a specific set of bits was laid out onto the CD, that same set of bits is almost always not what's able to be read back by a player later. The jitter is the difference in how those are read. All CDs have errors its just a matter of how many. Again, this is common knowledge, very easy to look up, do the work yourself. I actually suspect you may not know what error correction even is or how it works to correct incorrectly read data base to its actual source data. You may want to look that up also if you care to really understand it.

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post #28 of 87 Old 03-17-2018, 05:19 PM
 
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Obviously the more inaccurate the non-error corrected stream is read off the CD, the more audible this becomes.
Which disc player caused this audible issue and how did you find out?
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post #29 of 87 Old 03-17-2018, 05:31 PM
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Which disc player caused this audible issue and how did you find out?
You're joking, right?

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post #30 of 87 Old 03-17-2018, 09:27 PM
 
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You're joking, right?
No joke. Other than tube (output buffer) CD players, I haven't heard of any disc players produced in last 25 years that made audible difference in level matched double blind test.
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