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post #1 of 14 Old 12-21-2019, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Digital Audio Players for Newbies

I don't see much that I recognize as discussions about digital audio players. Am I just missing them or aren't DAP used much anymore?

I expect I can easily and cheaply copy songs to a USB drive and insert that into an AVR USB port and play it, but that wouldn't give me much control interface or backup capability.

I'd appreciate some guidance as to how to control backup and play digital music without linking my AVR to the internet.

For context, I've been using iTunes on a Mac for backup and control, but I expect I'll be moving to Linux for my next computer, and I have no idea how well Clementine, etc., will work, and that still won't get the music from computer to AVR.


Edited: Maybe I should start by asking what a DAP really is. I envision a box with some kind of storage for audio, like a CD player with a read/write disk, and which can be backed up. Looking online I find some places defining CD players and even audio-video receivers as digital audio players. I don't really understand what they are.

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post #2 of 14 Old 12-22-2019, 03:07 AM
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I use an Oppo player and use a usb drive plugged into it. I can navigate the contents of the drive with an app from my iPhone. Alternatively you can cut on your display and navigate the usb drive. A marantz ND8006 plays from USB almost all formats (and is a cd player) and you can use the HEOS app to navigate music on usb. The marantz is also airplay capable so you can stream to it using airplay. Many AVRs have airplay so you can stream to them.

AS far as digital audio players see some available music servers. Some have a CD drive for ripping and storing, some don't.

https://www.crutchfield.com/g_105800...rs.html?tp=254

Personally, I like the all in one solution so I opt for a universal player like the Oppo and usb playback. I don't have room for a separate digital playback device.

There are also network music players, most without cd capability. See below:

https://www.crutchfield.com/g_320350...?tp=36855&pg=2

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post #3 of 14 Old 12-22-2019, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by glangford View Post
I use an Oppo player and use a usb drive plugged into it. I can navigate the contents of the drive with an app from my iPhone. Alternatively you can cut on your display and navigate the usb drive. A marantz ND8006 plays from USB almost all formats (and is a cd player) and you can use the HEOS app to navigate music on usb. The marantz is also airplay capable so you can stream to it using airplay. Many AVRs have airplay so you can stream to them.

AS far as digital audio players see some available music servers. Some have a CD drive for ripping and storing, some don't.

https://www.crutchfield.com/g_105800...rs.html?tp=254

Personally, I like the all in one solution so I opt for a universal player like the Oppo and usb playback. I don't have room for a separate digital playback device.

There are also network music players, most without cd capability. See below:

https://www.crutchfield.com/g_320350...?tp=36855&pg=2
Thanks. I probably shouldn't have mentioned re-writable CD, because I'd be more interested in an all-in-one solution - maybe an SSD hard drive.


I'm still missing the meaning of digital audio player, although you left some good examples. The first link is closest to my needs. My ideal DAP would have a hard drive with an HDMI for permanent attachment to the AVR, and both a WiFi and a USB port in in front for loading music if I don't want to WiFi connect, and the USB would also be useful for backing up the hard drive. Does such a thing exist? (NB, I suppose I could do it with a Raspberry Pi and a good added sound card, but a USB thumb drive doesn't strike me as a good permanent storage.)

It appears this newbie is a little late for an Oppo since they closed down development in 2018. Too bad.

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post #4 of 14 Old 12-22-2019, 01:53 PM
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Thanks. I probably shouldn't have mentioned re-writable CD, because I'd be more interested in an all-in-one solution - maybe an SSD hard drive.


I'm still missing the meaning of digital audio player, although you left some good examples. The first link is closest to my needs. My ideal DAP would have a hard drive with an HDMI for permanent attachment to the AVR, and both a WiFi and a USB port in in front for loading music if I don't want to WiFi connect, and the USB would also be useful for backing up the hard drive. Does such a thing exist? (NB, I suppose I could do it with a Raspberry Pi and a good added sound card, but a USB thumb drive doesn't strike me as a good permanent storage.)

It appears this newbie is a little late for an Oppo since they closed down development in 2018. Too bad.
Most players that will play from usb will play from attached hard drives. You just have to make sure the port can power it, or you get a powered hard drive. I use a 256 gb SSD based thumb drive with my Oppo. Sony's players X800m2 and x1100es will both play almost anything from USB as well as spin cd/sacd. They have a music center app, but it's unclear if that app will allow you to control the contents of the drive. I mention the sony's because if you want HDMI connection you'll probably need a blu ray player. I don't know of any digital players that have hdmi. The Pioneer UDP-LX500 can also play from USB. One guy in that thread says he can get an app called mconnect to navigate the usb drive. Has no wifi, it requires a wired ethernet connection. All of these players, without a working app, will require you to cut on a monitor to select your music.

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post #5 of 14 Old 12-22-2019, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by glangford View Post
Most players that will play from usb will play from attached hard drives. You just have to make sure the port can power it, or you get a powered hard drive. I use a 256 gb SSD based thumb drive with my Oppo. Sony's players X800m2 and x1100es will both play almost anything from USB as well as spin cd/sacd. They have a music center app, but it's unclear if that app will allow you to control the contents of the drive. I mention the sony's because if you want HDMI connection you'll probably need a blu ray player. I don't know of any digital players that have hdmi. The Pioneer UDP-LX500 can also play from USB. One guy in that thread says he can get an app called mconnect to navigate the usb drive. Has no wifi, it requires a wired ethernet connection. All of these players, without a working app, will require you to cut on a monitor to select your music.
Thank you, glangford, but I'm still missing something basic. Let me see how much I understand: if a DAP doesn't have an HDMI port, then it's basically limited to RCA or Toslink. And even the good ones like yours don't have a hard drive - they use a USB thumb drive for storage.


So what's the advantage of a DAP over, say, a USB thumb drive plugged directly into the receiver?
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post #6 of 14 Old 12-23-2019, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Jaywalker1 View Post
Thank you, glangford, but I'm still missing something basic. Let me see how much I understand: if a DAP doesn't have an HDMI port, then it's basically limited to RCA or Toslink. And even the good ones like yours don't have a hard drive - they use a USB thumb drive for storage.


So what's the advantage of a DAP over, say, a USB thumb drive plugged directly into the receiver?
In my opinion not much. Before the Oppo I used to plug a thumb drive into a Denon 3311ci. My current receiver an Anthem MRX-520 doesn't do music via USB so I use the Oppo. You say, 'like yours'. I don't have one (A DAP), I use an Oppo udp-203 or a Oppo bdp-95 as a DAP. Both blu ray players. I could use a hard drive if I chose to. Guys plug NAS into the 203's rear 3.0 usb port for ripped movie playback. Almost any usb input will accept a small self powered or powered hard drive. Some may have size limitations, but a terabyte or two is easily accommodated by anything. The nice thing about an app based player is not having to cut the TV on to make a selection. Even with the Denon, I could navigate folders in its little two line display without having to cut on a display.

You never mentioned your receiver. Surely it will accept RCA or toslink connections. I'm still looking to find a player that play from the usb input, allow me to navigate a usb drive from an IOS app and spin discs (particularly SACD, which aren't easily ripped). My search has got me to one player, the technics SL-G700, at 2999. A bit steep, and hard to find player. I've considered settling on the marantz ND8006 which does everything I want except SACD. I'd then send my collection of SACD off to be ripped. I only have about 30, and don't buy them anymore opting instead for digital hi-rez downloads or just plain CDs. So for me the ND8006 is an option. But every time I think I've made a decision, I decide the Oppo is enough.

I wouldn't rule out continuing to use an apple computer and airplay if your receiver is airplay capable. You can partition a mac and run linux I believe on it and also run IOS for iTunes when you desire.

Sorry, If I'm unable to totally answer your questions. It's just that DAPs don't get a lot of air time here on AVS forum. There is a thread on a Sony DAP in the two channel subform. I've read some of the thread before as I wondered if that had any advantages over what I was doing. Seems that player had some firmware bugs, that I'm not sure ever got worked out. I would say the majority of people either spin discs, use usb file playback from thumb or attached hard drive, or use some type of networking, either airplay or some other type networking capability such as DLNA, media server on a computer, or SMB/NFS client file sharing. I'm not a computer wiz so I've opted for simple USB playback. The Oppo does all these, but the Sony players I've mentioned do those too as well, but look at those manuals. Almost all modern 4k blu ray players do DLNA. Panasonic, Sony, and Oppo. Some of the cheaper ones I doubt it. All of those do playback from USB. The pioneer is a bit more limited, not having wifi, but it will play back files from a network as well, ethernet connection required. Lastly a lot of folks now are using tidal, quboz, or similar service, so you might want a player that could do that. The marantz and technics I mentioned have that, some of the BD players do as well. You'll have to scour manuals to figure that aspect out, it never interested me.

Again, sorry, if I"m not totally able to answer your questions.

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post #7 of 14 Old 12-23-2019, 03:13 AM
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post #8 of 14 Old 12-23-2019, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by glangford View Post
In my opinion not much. Before the Oppo I used to plug a thumb drive into a Denon 3311ci. My current receiver an Anthem MRX-520 doesn't do music via USB so I use the Oppo. You say, 'like yours'. I don't have one (A DAP), I use an Oppo udp-203 or a Oppo bdp-95 as a DAP. Both blu ray players. I could use a hard drive if I chose to. Guys plug NAS into the 203's rear 3.0 usb port for ripped movie playback. Almost any usb input will accept a small self powered or powered hard drive. Some may have size limitations, but a terabyte or two is easily accommodated by anything. The nice thing about an app based player is not having to cut the TV on to make a selection. Even with the Denon, I could navigate folders in its little two line display without having to cut on a display.

You never mentioned your receiver. Surely it will accept RCA or toslink connections. I'm still looking to find a player that play from the usb input, allow me to navigate a usb drive from an IOS app and spin discs (particularly SACD, which aren't easily ripped). My search has got me to one player, the technics SL-G700, at 2999. A bit steep, and hard to find player. I've considered settling on the marantz ND8006 which does everything I want except SACD. I'd then send my collection of SACD off to be ripped. I only have about 30, and don't buy them anymore opting instead for digital hi-rez downloads or just plain CDs. So for me the ND8006 is an option. But every time I think I've made a decision, I decide the Oppo is enough.

I wouldn't rule out continuing to use an apple computer and airplay if your receiver is airplay capable. You can partition a mac and run linux I believe on it and also run IOS for iTunes when you desire.

Sorry, If I'm unable to totally answer your questions. It's just that DAPs don't get a lot of air time here on AVS forum. There is a thread on a Sony DAP in the two channel subform. I've read some of the thread before as I wondered if that had any advantages over what I was doing. Seems that player had some firmware bugs, that I'm not sure ever got worked out. I would say the majority of people either spin discs, use usb file playback from thumb or attached hard drive, or use some type of networking, either airplay or some other type networking capability such as DLNA, media server on a computer, or SMB/NFS client file sharing. I'm not a computer wiz so I've opted for simple USB playback. The Oppo does all these, but the Sony players I've mentioned do those too as well, but look at those manuals. Almost all modern 4k blu ray players do DLNA. Panasonic, Sony, and Oppo. Some of the cheaper ones I doubt it. All of those do playback from USB. The pioneer is a bit more limited, not having wifi, but it will play back files from a network as well, ethernet connection required. Lastly a lot of folks now are using tidal, quboz, or similar service, so you might want a player that could do that. The marantz and technics I mentioned have that, some of the BD players do as well. You'll have to scour manuals to figure that aspect out, it never interested me.

Again, sorry, if I"m not totally able to answer your questions.

On the contrary, that was an excellent response, and especially for me who knows nothing about digital audio players.


I'm auditioning a new Yamaha Aventage RX-A780. Unfortunately, the USB port doesn't recognize USB thumb drives (and Crutchfield is sending me a replacement). The port is located on the front of the AV receiver, so I wouldn't want to leave a cable in it full time, anyway. The User Manual (I think) led me to the generic term of "digital audio player," which I didn't understand and they don't explain, and thus my question.


AirPlay and other networking schemes may be possible later but not right now, and BlueTooth, which is possible, lacks quality. The problem I have with networking is that the AVR and the control device, iPhone, Mac, or Linux, would have to be on the same network, and that's a big security no-no. I put all of my Internet of Things (IoT) devices on a separate VLAN (Virtual LAN) with no cross-talk between the LAN we use for our computers and those with IoT devices.



After I've decided on the AVR configuration I may acquire a gently-used cell phone as a control device and assign it permanently to the IoT network - it'll be WiFi-only and won't require a phone plan. And yes, the AVR accepts both RCA and Toslink; I may build my first Raspberry Pi project (with a thumb drive storage) and RCA connection as something that I can leave permanently attached in order to spare the AVR's only USB port for firmware updates. RPi will also require the IoT-only cell phone, or, possibly, a monitor as a screen - don't know yet.



Again, thanks - yours was a fine description of the limitations of AV-playback world. I appreciate it.
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post #9 of 14 Old 12-23-2019, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
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On the contrary, that was an excellent response, and especially for me who knows nothing about digital audio players.


I'm auditioning a new Yamaha Aventage RX-A780. Unfortunately, the USB port doesn't recognize USB thumb drives (and Crutchfield is sending me a replacement). The port is located on the front of the AV receiver, so I wouldn't want to leave a cable in it full time, anyway. The User Manual (I think) led me to the generic term of "digital audio player," which I didn't understand and they don't explain, and thus my question.


AirPlay and other networking schemes may be possible later but not right now, and BlueTooth, which is possible, lacks quality. The problem I have with networking is that the AVR and the control device, iPhone, Mac, or Linux, would have to be on the same network, and that's a big security no-no. I put all of my Internet of Things (IoT) devices on a separate VLAN (Virtual LAN) with no cross-talk between the LAN we use for our computers and those with IoT devices.



After I've decided on the AVR configuration I may acquire a gently-used cell phone as a control device and assign it permanently to the IoT network - it'll be WiFi-only and won't require a phone plan. And yes, the AVR accepts both RCA and Toslink; I may build my first Raspberry Pi project (with a thumb drive storage) and RCA connection as something that I can leave permanently attached in order to spare the AVR's only USB port for firmware updates. RPi will also require the IoT-only cell phone, or, possibly, a monitor as a screen - don't know yet.



Again, thanks - yours was a fine description of the limitations of AV-playback world. I appreciate it.
If they used 'digital audio player' in context with the USB drive, they were talking about portable players, like an iPhone for example. Or one of the following:

https://www.crutchfield.com/g_158150...c-Players.html

But the manual leads me to believe either the musicast app or AV controller app will allow selection of audio from USB. Check that out.

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post #10 of 14 Old 12-23-2019, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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But the manual leads me to believe either the musicast app or AV controller app will allow selection of audio from USB. Check that out.
Will do - once the USB on the new AVR begins to work.
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post #11 of 14 Old 12-28-2019, 03:32 PM
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Cocktail Audio X45 fits your bill. Pricey, but worth it imho.
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post #12 of 14 Old 12-29-2019, 08:25 AM
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Since you’re looking for a stand-alone component, I have a couple of options you might consider.

One is the discontinued Yamaha MCX-2000 digital audio server with a built-in 160g hard drive. Audioholics did a review and really loved it. Audioholics only mentioned ripping CDs to it as the method for “loading it up.” However, it does have a PC connection, so that might be the ticket for back-up and loading in files from your computer. It also has network capabilities. I’ll leave it to you to wade through the manual to see if it will fit your needs. I saw one on ebay recently for I think less than $300.

https://www.audioholics.com/gadget-r...l-music-server
https://de.yamaha.com/files/download...0_GBUCA_en.pdf

The other option is a solid state recorder from the pro audio field. Both TASCAM and Denon Professional make models. These store media on SD cards, which is kind of nice – you can have different cards loaded up with Christmas music, classic rock, jazz, etc. In this case, your computer would be the back-up. Some have network capability, but you’ll have to check the manuals to see how that works.

These are pretty expensive when new, but you can find used models on ebay for reasonable prices – search for “[brand name] solid state” or “[brand name] recorder.” TASCAM is pretty good about making manuals for discontinued models available on-line; I don’t know of Denon does.

https://tascam.com/us/category/Rackm...ayback_Devices
https://www.denonpro.com/index.php/p.../media-players

In either case (Yamaha or solid state recorder), these are audio components, so there isn't going to be any HDMI.

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post #13 of 14 Old 12-30-2019, 03:50 PM
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These days 'DAP"s usually means something portable, much like a mobile phone, and usually have a built in DAC and more often than not a headphone amp. Home devices are refereed to as "streamers", be it a local file, or internet service like Tidal, Pandora etc. Some will come with storage options, some even have built in amps, and some will have a disc ripping option too.

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post #14 of 14 Old 12-31-2019, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne A. Pflughaupt View Post
Since you’re looking for a stand-alone component, I have a couple of options you might consider.

One is the discontinued Yamaha MCX-2000 digital audio server with a built-in 160g hard drive. Audioholics did a review and really loved it. Audioholics only mentioned ripping CDs to it as the method for “loading it up.” However, it does have a PC connection, so that might be the ticket for back-up and loading in files from your computer. It also has network capabilities. I’ll leave it to you to wade through the manual to see if it will fit your needs. I saw one on ebay recently for I think less than $300.

https://www.audioholics.com/gadget-r...l-music-server
https://de.yamaha.com/files/download...0_GBUCA_en.pdf

The other option is a solid state recorder from the pro audio field. Both TASCAM and Denon Professional make models. These store media on SD cards, which is kind of nice – you can have different cards loaded up with Christmas music, classic rock, jazz, etc. In this case, your computer would be the back-up. Some have network capability, but you’ll have to check the manuals to see how that works.

These are pretty expensive when new, but you can find used models on ebay for reasonable prices – search for “[brand name] solid state” or “[brand name] recorder.” TASCAM is pretty good about making manuals for discontinued models available on-line; I don’t know of Denon does.

https://tascam.com/us/category/Rackm...ayback_Devices
https://www.denonpro.com/index.php/p.../media-players

In either case (Yamaha or solid state recorder), these are audio components, so there isn't going to be any HDMI.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Thanks, Wayne. I think the Yamaha MCX-2000 might suit me - I'll keep my eye open.


I've fallen back to a Panasonic BluRay player with USB-In. While that isn't exactly what I described, if it works it may be close, assuming I can play from a USB music through it.


I'm also considering a Raspebrry Pi project with a HiFiBerry sound card - I'll probably do that just to see how it works, even if the Panasonic works. Again, thanks.
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